Touch and Go's no go with instructor

marcoseddi

marcoseddi

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So I may be joining a flight club I only took a few lessons at a local FBO and they have 7k foot runway and do touch and go's all day everyday at the club down the block its only 3k and the instructor i met with said the other instructors at the club do touch and go's but i don't because of some mis hap at ironically the bigger airport with the 7k ft runway. Is this a problem does it waste a lot of time having to taxi back n forth every time, is it something to worry about?
 
7000 feet. Do Stop and Goes. Do low passes. Do Go Arounds. The last two are not the same, the first has some benefits over a touch and go.
 
This thread reminded me of a question I've always had about touch and go's. I don't mean to hijack, and I think it is relavent to the OP's question.

How would you determine that a runway is too short for touch and go's? My home airport runway is 6000' and I dont even think about length when doing touch and go's. There is a nearby airport with a 1900' runway, and I wouldnt think of doing touch and go's there.
 
A criterion I like to use is that the runway needs to be as long as the sum of 50 ft landing and takeoff distances at max gross. For stop'n'goes, add a 50% margin.

People do touch'n'goes at PAO. That's a 2300 foot runway.

Personally, I think a lot is lost for a student pilot, but they can be useful for daytime currency.
 
jasc15 said:
This thread reminded me of a question I've always had about touch and go's. I don't mean to hijack, and I think it is relavent to the OP's question.

How would you determine that a runway is too short for touch and go's? My home airport runway is 6000' and I dont even think about length when doing touch and go's. There is a nearby airport with a 1900' runway, and I wouldnt think of doing touch and go's there.
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I have heard you can never have too much runway unless it is behind you. MAKG rule of thumb is about what I use.
 
I would not recommend tng's early in training, but definitely after solo. You may have to do one someday to save your bacon and it teaches you to multi-task in a timely, orderly manner. They are not used later in training due to "milking the clock".
 
Well I may stay at the school that has 7k or go to the club better prices nicer planes and its much short 3k runway and this instructor wont do touch and goes is that normal or waste, wast of time?
 
jasc15 said:
This thread reminded me of a question I've always had about touch and go's. I don't mean to hijack, and I think it is relavent to the OP's question.

How would you determine that a runway is too short for touch and go's? My home airport runway is 6000' and I dont even think about length when doing touch and go's. There is a nearby airport with a 1900' runway, and I wouldnt think of doing touch and go's there.
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I think you answered your own question. The answer is between those two lengths, and you have to find out what you're comfortable doing. I'm no CFI, but IMO you just need to know how much runway you have ahead of you when you touch down and how much your plane needs to get back in the air safely.
 
call neil. trust me. join the club.
 
During your training, you will go to multiple airports. I don't think the runway length has anything to do with the touch and gos in this case (you could easily hop over to another airport and do touch and gos. Many airports don't allow them for various reasons like noise abatement.) I think you are asking whether or not this instructor is qualified to teach you. Ask around. Talk to other students. What is his success rate? Do you get along with him (other than touch and goes)?
 
Maybe you can do Stop and Go's, and make each "Go" a short field takeoff. I've done that on the 3500 ft runway here.
 
My CFI had a rule when I was training: No solo T&G.

And any time we went to a new airport, or used a rwy I hadn't used before, and my intention was to do a T&G I was always asked, "Did you calculate the landing and takeoff distances to determine that this rwy is long enough for that?"

Each CFI has their own reasons for their T&G rules.
 
At first as a student, we always did only Stop and Goes. So that I could end one manuever and start the other. This was a OJC with 4k to work with in a 172, it had nothing to do with the length but rather with ending one landing, reflecting, and then getting in the mode to do a proper takeoff (short or soft fields mainly)...

Later we would do them, with the CFI regulated to Johnson Bar duty. He didn't want my head to go down to mess with it, and I agreed. He requested I not attempt it on my own, and so I didn't..

I did though do full stop, and takeoffs, and will do them frequently if the runway allows. Actual Touch and goes (where you barely get the front wheel down), I just don't have much use for...
 
Matthew said:
My CFI had a rule when I was training: No solo T&G.

And any time we went to a new airport, or used a rwy I hadn't used before, and my intention was to do a T&G I was always asked, "Did you calculate the landing and takeoff distances to determine that this rwy is long enough for that?"

Each CFI has their own reasons for their T&G rules.
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Think these guys calculate there T/O and LDG distance every time they land at a new piece of dirt?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE2wga5Q5fE
 
marcoseddi said:
Well I may stay at the school that has 7k or go to the club better prices nicer planes and its much short 3k runway and this instructor wont do touch and goes is that normal or waste, wast of time?
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It's definitely not a waste of time. My home airport prohibits touch and goes for noise abatement, but I actually liked doing full stops every time, because it gave us time to talk about what I needed to fix while I wasn't flying the plane. Also, there's a turnoff 1000 ft down the runway which gave me an incentive to practice my short field technique :). It's always a pain to cruise past it with that hobbs meter ticking away...
 
ja_user said:
I did though do full stop, and takeoffs, and will do them frequently if the runway allows. Actual Touch and goes (where you barely get the front wheel down), I just don't have much use for...
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If a plane, truck or deer drives out in front of you just after touchdown you will need to have practiced those skills.
 
Touch and goes are a double edged sword. On the good side, they get a lot more approaches and touchdowns in the same amount of side, which saves money. On the bad side, they don't exercise anything in the landing beyond touchdown (and most landing accidents occur due to the pilot not maintaining control after touchdown), they require the pilot to divert attention from aircraft control to reconfiguration for takeoff (again, encouraging loss of control and, in retractables, a potential inadvertant gear retraction on the runway), and they kill any real opportunity for the instructor and trainee to discuss the approach and landing just completed (because the trainee is now busy doing the takeoff, climbout, and pattern). On the other hand, doing full stop/taxi back avoids all those issues, but does take more time and therefore gets fewer landings per dollar for the trainee. On the third hand, those fewer landings may be providing better training quality overall.

So, it's not a cut-and-dried issue, and depends on what you're flying, where you're flying, and how the trainee is progressing -- every case is different, and the answer may change as the trainee progresses.
 
RV10flyer said:
If a plane, truck or deer drives out in front of you just after touchdown you will need to have practiced those skills.
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I didn't say that I had NO use for them... Just not much use :)
 
I think touch and goes are fine just as long as it is made clear to the student that it is in fact 2 maneuvers, not 1 and it can be kinda hard for students to see that fine line. I can't tell you how many times I have flown with people who try to rush touch and goes and do stupid stuff like applying power with full flaps...
 
flyingmoose said:
Think these guys calculate there T/O and LDG distance every time they land at a new piece of dirt?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE2wga5Q5fE
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Yeah, they do.

It's just that we use postage stamp measurements instead of feet and it's done mentally, after timed low passes and other methods.

These SuperCub and Highlander Class aircraft with max high lift and big wheels are in a totally different league above any typical primary trainers.

I can't imagine NOT doing T&Gs with primary flight students from probably the second lesson. And they will certainly be qualified to do T&Gs before solo, as well as the elementary evaluation of any landing site prior to performing the maneuver.
 
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GCA319 said:
I think touch and goes are fine just as long as it is made clear to the student that it is in fact 2 maneuvers, not 1 and it can be kinda hard for students to see that fine line. I can't tell you how many times I have flown with people who try to rush touch and goes and do stupid stuff like applying power with full flaps...
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Yep, did that on an early student solo:yikes:.
I was doing touch & go's and forgot to retract the flaps! Scared the hell out of me when the nose pitched waayyy up.

Fortunately, I remembered what I was taught, pushed the nose over to pick up speed and gradually reduced flaps. That was an eye opener and after that experience, I never ever had a problem doing touch & go's again:D
 
I've never done touch & go's. It's an unnecessary risk for no benefit.
 
JHW said:
I've never done touch & go's. It's an unnecessary risk for no benefit.
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To each his or her own. The aircraft you're flying and your landing configuration has a lot to do with it too. In a 172, landing with 10 flaps, touch and go's seem pretty straightforward. Granted, I only have 15 hours experience so far, YMMV.
 
We even do splash-n-goes, it's so basic of a flight maneuver. T&Gs are just a step away from a go-around too, an absolutely essential pilot skill.

I could see a CFI/FBO not wanting to do them in order to increase overall Hobbs/billable training time since about 2X landings can be done via T&Gs v Taxi Back.
 
JHW said:
I've never done touch & go's. It's an unnecessary risk for no benefit.
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Like Ron said there is no cut and dry to it, but with that said there is no unnecessary risk involved with it. There is a benefit thought.
 
It's the same principle as a golf lesson. Does a student get more benefit from stopping between swings to review and listen to the pro with undivided attention, or from just standing there beating balls and trying to make corrections between swings?

For the answer, ask any pro.

JHW said:
I've never done touch & go's. It's an unnecessary risk for no benefit.
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I did touch and goes from the very beginning of my training. Can't imagine trying to learn to land without doing them.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
I could see a CFI/FBO not wanting to do them in order to increase overall Hobbs/billable training time since about 2X landings can be done via T&Gs v Taxi Back.
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The FBO's I know who prohibit T&G's do so for financial reasons, but not the one Dave mentions. Rather, it is the cost of fixing damaged planes (especially retractables) damaged during the evolution which leads them to that rule.
 
In mine with 30 flaps, it is flap switch up(18 sec to reflex position and not required), nose down trim(not required but helpful) and then full power. If we can't do that and maintain within 5' of centerline, then it is no wonder we have so many aircraft loss of control accidents. Like many of us already mentioned, this was not something I did until later in training. Then it was not practiced often due to loss of revenue for the school/instructor and higher risk involved. After training, I practiced on my own with another fbo. This is also when I learned more about flying in various weather conditions(with an instructor). Do all that you are allowed with your CFI.
 
I learned on a 5500 ft runway, T&G was the norm. Plus there was always at least 6 C-150s in the non-tower pattern, with a couple more waiting for a gap in the landing traffic to take off. A pilot learned early to keep track of other aircraft in the pattern and still fly.

ASH, 1974.
 
RotorAndWing said:
We've done them in the B727, B757 and A320. No risk, just real sporty. ;)
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We did them in the F-4, but only with an IP aboard and a minimum of 10,000 feet of runway. IIRC, we didn't do them at all in the F-111, and tire temps were the big driver.
 
Funkeruski said:
I did touch and goes from the very beginning of my training. Can't imagine trying to learn to land without doing them.
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Ive only had a few lessons but i feel like that as well. And do agree its in the instructors best interest not to do T&go's besides for danger more about hobbs time etc.
 
BillTIZ said:
I learned on a 5500 ft runway, T&G was the norm. Plus there was always at least 6 C-150s in the non-tower pattern, with a couple more waiting for a gap in the landing traffic to take off. A pilot learned early to keep track of other aircraft in the pattern and still fly.

ASH, 1974.
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Controversy about touch-and-goes is another thing I didn't realize existed until I started reading web boards. Like you stated, they were the norm when I was learning and when I was teaching primary students. But that was back in the late 1970s and 1980s. Maybe it's also regional. On nice days the parallel touch-and-go runway here is busy.
 
Everskyward said:
Controversy about touch-and-goes is another thing I didn't realize existed until I started reading web boards. Like you stated, they were the norm when I was learning and when I was teaching primary students. But that was back in the late 1970s and 1980s. Maybe it's also regional. On nice days the parallel touch-and-go runway here is busy.
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Lots of things I never realized "we're doing wrong" till Internet boards came into existence.
 
I don't do them any longer.

I certainly did a lot of them when training and many afterwards. I stopped when I owned my own taildragger and the risks in that particular type became obvious.

Now I fly a trike which can easily to T&Gs but I just don't. No time to do my checklist before takeoff is part of it (yeah, I go down a written list every time)

I don't quite see where a T&G is a 'standard' manuever. A go around certainly is and I need to practice them more than I do. Doing a go around with full flaps and full power is part of the drill.

I've killed a goose and a deer but couldn't see where a T&G would even be advisable.

But I definitely see where a student or low time pilot would want to do them. I know I did.
 
Ron Levy said:
The FBO's I know who prohibit T&G's do so for financial reasons, but not the one Dave mentions. Rather, it is the cost of fixing damaged planes (especially retractables) damaged during the evolution which leads them to that rule.
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RG or Fixed Gear, is a T&G landing more damaging than one to a full stop to the gear? Shouldn't be for the landing gear.

The aircraft landing gear shouldn't even know any difference until the slowing landing roll is converted with full power to a take off run.

Properly trained, we do T&Gs on Camano Island WA's public airport, less than 2000 feet, with Cherokees, C150s through C205 and AeroCommander, no problem because of minimal obstacles.

One guy did almost put a Skyhawk into the bay on an overrun from an attempted full stop landing though. Exhaust pipe caught on a tree stump and held the plane there until the crane came.
 
We use to do touch and goes in helicopter training while teaching run on landings with skid based helicopters. Slide it on the runway then pull collective to do the go around and do it again.
 
I learned to fly in a J3 and I think that in any conventional geared airplane a T&G is cheating because the "trouble" begins when the rudder stops working and the tailwheel has to take over. Of course, in a J3 you can do stop and goes on just about any runway and in fact, by the time you reach up there to push in the carb heat you're pretty darn near stopped anyway.

With tricycle gear I think T&G's are beneficial because you are getting much more pattern and approach work in. There's just no good reason to coast down to a stop after you made the landing.

With complex, retracts and twins it depends on the situation but that's not basic training stuff.
 
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