Touch and Go Versus Full Stop - Which is Better?

[wabower]

It's been that way for as long as I can remember, and I don't know the background. If I had to guess, and based on other "why did they?" rules on the books (like O2 use requirements that ignore medical reality) I'd say it was the result of a compromise. A likely scenario IMO would have the FAA wanting full-stops for all currency and the flight-school industry lobbying for T&G's.

In any case it's clear which environment was/is more demanding in terms of demonstrating currency in all phases of both takeoff and landing vs. simply rolling the tires and pushing the throttle, and that the FAA continues to think it's worth doing.

yes I have. I was thinking that the FAA thought that might be better but am not sure. Do you have an answer. I am a morning person and would prefer to zip through the 3 touch and goes at night rather than stop and go or taxi back in order to be night current.

 

[KeyWestPhotog]

To me it depends on what you are trying to accomplish.

If you are flying tricycle gear, I would try and perfect soft field landings so you could knock out two birds with one stone, if your trying to be smoother in T&G, rollout, and full stop options.

 

[VanDy]

Why does 61.57 require full stops to maintain 90 day currency for tailwheel only pilots?

If I'm out just enjoying myself it depends, for me


-VanDy

 

[Silvaire]

Have you ever wondered why night currency requires full-stop landings?

Probably because gear and flap switches on old Bonanzas look and feel exactly alike.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Probably because gear and flap switches on old Bonanzas look and feel exactly alike.

Doubtful.....that is sadly just as much of a problem during the day as night.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Silvaire]

Just meant as a joke. Ever seen the panel of a G35? You might try to put the gear up and get an ashtray instead

 

[JHW]

is that a typo

nope. probably well over 300, I didn't bother to write down every flight. Just a slow learner I guess, Maybe i should have tried some T&G's

 

[denverpilot]

I'll ignore the question and state it flatly: You'd better know how to do both as a Pilot, and your flight club's rules aren't doing anyone's airmanship any good.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

Considering the majority of TW accident/ground loops occur during the rollout AFTER the tail has come done and before coming to a complete stop, that is perhaps the silliest claim I have seen on this board.

Really,

People get in trouble on the mains or during the transition to tail down, sometimes right after, understand the fundamentals of Tailwheel and why there are harder to control.

Long story short, after soloing a ton of 0 time folks tailwheel, learning how to fly in a tailwheel, owning a tailwheel, making a living flying tailwheels, having a full engine failure in a tailwheel with out so much as scratching it, landing in everything from 10,000' intl airports to beaches, towing with em, spraying with em, hauling with em, 40+kt xwinds, VFR, IFR, Day, Night, well over 1500hrs tailwheel, think I know what I'm talking about.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Really,

People get in trouble on the mains or during the transition to tail down, sometimes right after, understand the fundamentals of Tailwheel and why there are harder to control.

Long story short, after soloing a ton of 0 time folks tailwheel, learning how to fly in a tailwheel, owning a tailwheel, making a living flying tailwheels, having a full engine failure in a tailwheel with out so much as scratching it, landing in everything from 10,000' intl airports to beaches, towing with em, spraying with em, hauling with em, 40+kt xwinds, VFR, IFR, Day, Night, well over 1500hrs tailwheel, think I know what I'm talking about.

If you really know what you're talking about show me two NTSB reports or YouTube videos of ground loops that happened before the tail came down.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

Like quite a few other things you don't understand...

Biggest thing I dont understand is way you NEVER answer my question that I've asked on a few threads, how many hours you CURRENTLY log a month???

If the instructor isn't ahead of the student they're both in big trouble

If the instructor cant remain ahead of his student, they were in trouble before they got in the plane!

If you really know what you're talking about show me two NTSB reports or YouTube videos of ground loops that happened before the tail came down.

Lets read about two of my posts back...

... the part were people F' up is the transition between wheels first down and when your Tailwheel is down and your at a jogging pace.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Vfy5SRKxO_c

Dont know about you, but when that went to crap, he was going way faster then I jog.

 

[slacktide]

I would have never learned to fly if I had to do full-stops every time. I had a horrible time getting my legs wired to my brain during the last 5 seconds of landing. The only thing that cured it was repetition.

What a waste of money. Dragging along a 5,000 ft runway at 1' AGL and at MCA would have been worth 50 T&Gs if you wanted to master directional control in the flare.

 

[slacktide]

And for the record, I think T&Gs are great for mastering approaches, but stupid for mastering landings.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Lets read about two of my posts back...




http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Vfy5SRKxO_c

Dont know about you, but when that went to crap, he was going way faster then I jog.

Here is your post:

Touch and goes are MANADATORY for good Tailwheel training, the more cycles you get in the better. Touch and go didn't end until the Tailwheel touches the ground.

Also a small taildragger should able to operate out of a tiny strip, when I was first learning how to fly in a 7AC, it was out of a 2500' strip under 20' wide, plenty of room IMO

You said nothing in that post about slowing to a jog. While I would agree that it sounds better than your original comment, I would point out that if you are going to slow to a jog, why not just complete the act and do a stop and go? You really aren't gaining much (maybe a few seconds), but increasing the risk of a student losing control while reconfiguring/adding power on the go.

 

[VWGhiaBob]

It's neck and neck!

Very interesting...from the OP. The poll score is now close to 50 / 50. When I started the thread, I thought that as a full-stop guy, I was in a small minority.

There's nothing wrong with either one, obviously. It's somewhat a matter of personal preference, and also where you fly. But there are some oft overlooked benefits of full stops.

Guess they weren't as overlooked as I thought!!

 

[Skylane81E]

And for the record, I think T&Gs are great for mastering approaches, but stupid for mastering landings.

Yep, and I think doing T&Gs is important, even just as late go around practice.

Where are you deficient? If it ain't the roll out bang n goes will help for a minimum time investment.

If you cannot handle the roll out then T&Gs do you little good.

 

[signu127]

What are you guys talking about when you say "roll out?"

thanks

 

[jdennis1989]

How does one grow a pair of socks?

Best post I have seen on this forum so far!

 

[poadeleted20]

What are you guys talking about when you say "roll out?"

We're talking about the rolling portion of a landing from touchdown to stopping or clearing the runway. This is where a staggering number of landing accidents occur, which leads the FAA and others to believe inadequate attention is paid by pilots and instructors to the completion of landings, not just reaching the runway.

 

[signu127]

We're talking about the rolling portion of a landing from touchdown to stopping or clearing the runway. This is where a staggering number of landing accidents occur, which leads the FAA and others to believe inadequate attention is paid by pilots and instructors to the completion of landings, not just reaching the runway.

Ohh...okay. it feels like I'm never going to learn all the terminology associated with the flying forums.

My first 5 or 6 hours of landings were all touch and go. We never had any dedicated hours of full stops except when we started doing the short field and soft field land and takeoffs .

 

[poadeleted20]

Ohh...okay. it feels like I'm never going to learn all the terminology associated with the flying forums.

It will come.

My first 5 or 6 hours of landings were all touch and go. We never had any dedicated hours of full stops except when we started doing the short field and soft field land and takeoffs .

That is typical. It is also contrary to what the FAA is encouraging instructors to do.

 

[signu127]

That is typical. It is also contrary to what the FAA is encouraging instructors to do.

Which would be???

 

[poadeleted20]

Which would be???

Learning how to land the plane, not just touch down,, so the trainee learns to fly the plane all the way to a stop. I see way too many pilots who basically let go as soon as the plane touches down, and that's how we get all those "loss-of-control after touchdown accidents." Habits like that are developed early, and once developed, are very hard to break -- see the Laws of Primacy and Exercise in the Aviation Instructor's Handbook.

Also, it's important that the instructor take the time to talk with the trainee about the landing while it's still fresh in his/her head. If you do a T&G, there's no opportunity for that -- the trainee's attention is fully absorbed in flying the plane and cannot devote sufficient attention to the instructor's discussion. It's possible for the instructor to take control after the "go" so s/he can talk with the trainee while flying the climbout and crosswind (which is a fairly unchallenging portion of the pattern), then give control back on downwind, but the trainee still isn't going to be giving the same level of attention to the instruction as s/he would on the ground.

 

[wabower]

Learning how to land the plane, not just touch down,, so the trainee learns to fly the plane all the way to a stop. I see way too many pilots who basically let go as soon as the plane touches down, and that's how we get all those "loss-of-control after touchdown accidents." Habits like that are developed early, and once developed, are very hard to break -- see the Laws of Primacy and Exercise in the Aviation Instructor's Handbook.

Also, it's important that the instructor take the time to talk with the trainee about the landing while it's still fresh in his/her head. If you do a T&G, there's no opportunity for that -- the trainee's attention is fully absorbed in flying the plane and cannot devote sufficient attention to the instructor's discussion. It's possible for the instructor to take control after the "go" so s/he can talk with the trainee while flying the climbout and crosswind (which is a fairly unchallenging portion of the pattern), then give control back on downwind, but the trainee still isn't going to be giving the same level of attention to the instruction as s/he would on the ground.

We all nod our heads in agreement that the cockpit is a terrible classroom, then some get in the airplane and try it anyway. How much eye contact do two people in a cockpit ever achieve while airborne?

 

[Fearless Tower]

We all nod our heads in agreement that the cockpit is a terrible classroom, then some get in the airplane and try it anyway. How much eye contact do two people in a cockpit ever achieve while airborne?

I've always thought of the cockpit/flight portion as the Lab where you get to hands-on practice the concepts you learn in the classroom. I think too many places (perhaps in the interest of time) try to bypass the ground and do it all in the airplane.

 

[poadeleted20]

I've always thought of the cockpit/flight portion as the Lab where you get to hands-on practice the concepts you learn in the classroom. I think too many places (perhaps in the interest of time) try to bypass the ground and do it all in the airplane.

My motto for IR training is "Learn on the ground, practice in the air."

But that's easier to do when you have an appropriate flight simulation device, and there ain't many of those for learning how to land a light plane. :wink2:

 

[NineThreeKilo]

Here is your post:

You said nothing in that post about slowing to a jog. While I would agree that it sounds better than your original comment, I would point out that if you are going to slow to a jog, why not just complete the act and do a stop and go? You really aren't gaining much (maybe a few seconds), but increasing the risk of a student losing control while reconfiguring/adding power on the go.

Read it again, I even quoted myself, the jogging post is on page 2 I believe.

Also if the student is even close to loosing total control of the aircraft while re configuring, he is in no way ready for solo.

If he came in bounced the crap out of a landing, you're saying hes committed to land because he's unable to reconfigure while moving??

As for time, on average we would do one T&G per .1

 

[Skylane81E]

We all nod our heads in agreement that the cockpit is a terrible classroom, then some get in the airplane and try it anyway. How much eye contact do two people in a cockpit ever achieve while airborne?

I have gotten some good "ground" instruction in the air before, but flying X-Cs, on autopilot, for the sake of doing it is a long way from the environment of the primary student learning to land.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Also if the student is even close to loosing total control of the aircraft while re configuring, he is in no way ready for solo.

And yet people who already have Tailwheel endorsements still manage to screw it up and bend metal.

But if that extra few seconds per trip around the pattern is what blows your skirt up, be my guest. You are simply the first and only internet tailwheel expert I have heard make that claim.

 

[Skylane81E]

And yet people who already have Tailwheel endorsements still manage to screw it up and bend metal.

But if that extra few seconds per trip around the pattern is what blows your skirt up, be my guest. You are simply the first and only internet tailwheel expert I have heard make that claim.

Well seeing as I almost ground looped a nose dragger...

Well not really as I never lost directional control, but I was rolling along nicely on three wheels when I got shoved 2/3s of the way back into the air by a gust of wind. Glad I was still "flying" the plane despite the fact it had been a rolling contraption a few seconds before.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

And yet people who already have Tailwheel endorsements still manage to screw it up and bend metal.

But if that extra few seconds per trip around the pattern is what blows your skirt up, be my guest. You are simply the first and only internet tailwheel expert I have heard make that claim.

A tailwheel endorsement....that means next to nothing to me

SOOO many spam can pilot go do a "weekend course" as if that teaches them jack, just shows them enough to destroy a perfectly good taildragger. Same deal with the rich guys that get a checkout in their new Tailwheel plane (like the video I posted). This is why many of the "weekend" courses will put ink in your log but won't rent solo.

I HATE teaching trike pilots how to fly tailwheel and they take MUCH longer to earn their solo then guys with 0 experience.

95% ish of my tailwheel guys had 0 flying time, they came in to be career pilots, not one came even close to scratching anything, average first/tailwheel solo was 15hrs or so.

Start off with the standard presolo airwork, plus spins and Dutch rolls.

Next low passes (a few flights worth), after they were able to smoothly track the center line and "accidentally" chirp the mains once and a while..

Touch and goes (2 & 3 point, I would call which one right before the numbers)

Full stops and short and soft field (used a grass runway for that)

X-wind 2&3 points, downwind 2&3 points, sim engine failure, etc.

Solo

 

[PilotAlan]

Yep, and I think doing T&Gs is important, even just as late go around practice.

And this is why T&Gs have the potential to be dangerous. A T&G is NOT practice for a go around.
Let me repeat that:
A T&G is NOT practice for a go around, and will get people killed if they don't know the difference.
The order of operations is completely different between a T&G and a go around, and there is negative transfer between the two operations.

The order of operations for a T&G is
1 - Flaps up all at once
2 - Throttle in
3 - Get to target airspeed
4 - Pitch up

The order of operations for a go around is:
1 - Throttle in
2 - Pitch to arrest sink
3 - Get to target airspeed
4 - Establish climb
5 - Retract flaps in stages

If you perform the operations for a T&G while in the air, an accident is likely to occur.
I would hope that an instructor would understand the difference between the two operations.

 

[Skylane81E]

A T&G is a go around, but not an airborne one. You are right they are very different

 

[NineThreeKilo]

And this is why T&Gs have the potential to be dangerous. A T&G is NOT practice for a go around.

A T&G is NOT a Go-Around I think you know that, I know that, I know my students know that.

A T&G builds GOOD SKILLS for a GO-AROUND though, it's the ability to reconfigure on the fly that helps in BOTH a T&G and Go-Around

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Why would you stipulate below: "flaps up all at once" for a T&G, when flaps as desired, or incrementally, is more appropriate on a case by case basis?

The pilot should obviously be cognizant of the difference between the two maneuvers in all events.

And this is why T&Gs have the potential to be dangerous. A T&G is NOT practice for a go around.
Let me repeat that:
A T&G is NOT practice for a go around, and will get people killed if they don't know the difference.
The order of operations is completely different between a T&G and a go around, and there is negative transfer between the two operations.

The order of operations for a T&G is
1 - Flaps up all at once
2 - Throttle in
3 - Get to target airspeed
4 - Pitch up

The order of operations for a go around is:
1 - Throttle in
2 - Pitch to arrest sink
3 - Get to target airspeed
4 - Establish climb
5 - Retract flaps in stages

If you perform the operations for a T&G while in the air, an accident is likely to occur.
I would hope that an instructor would understand the difference between the two operations.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

The order of operations for a go around is:
1 - Throttle in
2 - Pitch to arrest sink
3 - Get to target airspeed
4 - Establish climb
5 - Retract flaps in stages

Ehh, careful with that Alan, you pitch to arrest sink on a last minute go around you might end up on the wrong side of the power curve and never get to #3 of target airspeed, thus never get to #4 of a climb and bite it.

I'd teach pitch for a good airspeed, then climb at target airspeed, then flaps out as you increase AOA to comp

 

[poadeleted20]

Am I the only one who knows there's a difference between a go-around and a balked landing?

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Am I the only one who knows there's a difference between a go-around and a balked landing?

A T&G could be called a balked landing but, I'd say technically, if your wheels are on the ground, your point of balking on the landing has really just passed.

One aviation school uses balked LDG and go-around interchangeably.

 

[Skylane81E]

A T&G could be called a balked landing but, I'd say technically, if your wheels are on the ground, your point of balking on the landing has really just passed.

One aviation school uses balked LDG and go-around interchangeably.

In most light planes sure, as if you are on the ground you are rather slow and can stop in short order. However with that private certificate you can start flying things that land faster and do not stop as quickly with lots of power that could leap back into the air to avoid an unexpected obstacle. A T&G also teaches that just because your wheels are on the ground doesn't mean you have to stop, start the go around late enough and you will sink the rest of the way to the runway.

IOW both are rather simple maneuvers and I think pilots should be well versed in them

 

[poadeleted20]

A T&G could be called a balked landing but, I'd say technically, if your wheels are on the ground, your point of balking on the landing has really just passed.

Unless you mean "if your wheels are on the ground and under control," I would disagree strongly. Bounces, porpoising, crow-hopping, and other things like that can often result in a balked landing once your wheels are on the ground, and what you do in those situations is far from what you do on either a T&G or a go-around.

One aviation school uses balked LDG and go-around interchangeably.

I don't think that's an appropriate way to teach things.