Took the plunge today...

(belated) Congrats on the new bird!

I did my complex endorsement in a 177RG. I liked the plane so much, I put another 75 or so hours in it in the two years following the checkout (including my last landing at Meigs about 2 months before the 'event' :(). REALLY nice flying bird, and those big barn-sized-doors make it easy to get in-and-out of.

I could see a nicely equipped IFR bird to be a very capable 4+ baggage traveling machine.
 
Thanks, Chris. I think I remember someone's picture of their last final approach into soon-to-be-doomed Meigs a few years ago, was that yours?

8JT is very IFR capable, or will be once I activate my Jepp and XM subscriptions and get the datacards updated. But I really couldn't see a 177RG as a 4 adult plane, even with lil' ol' me as one of the adults. :) I'll have to study the W&B. Maybe with half tanks. :dunno:
 
You poor soul....welcome to the world of the perpetually broke! Congrats anyway!
 
azure said:
Thanks, Chris. I think I remember someone's picture of their last final approach into soon-to-be-doomed Meigs a few years ago, was that yours?

8JT is very IFR capable, or will be once I activate my Jepp and XM subscriptions and get the datacards updated. But I really couldn't see a 177RG as a 4 adult plane, even with lil' ol' me as one of the adults. :) I'll have to study the W&B. Maybe with half tanks. :dunno:
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My family used the club's 177RG for trips from Iowa to Alabama at Thanksgiving for a few years. Drop fuel to just below the tabs and you have enough room for 4 people and 'responsible' amount of stuff.
 
dmccormack said:
Isn't that Tom B's plane from Flying magazine?
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It was. Sigh. I hope I haven't just made a huge blunder by posting the pics so soon. But he was so public, he had to expect that the news of the sale couldn't be kept under wraps.

And in case someone is thinking of warning me that he sold it because his engine was worn out, no he didn't. He sold it because he could no longer afford to fly it. And he first put in a zero time engine and got the breakin process started.
 
Thanks for the pics - nice looking bird. I'll be sure to pick you out on the ramp at Ray (or anywhere else). :D
 
azure said:
It was. Sigh. I hope I haven't just made a huge blunder by posting the pics so soon. But he was so public, he had to expect that the news of the sale couldn't be kept under wraps.

And in case someone is thinking of warning me that he sold it because his engine was worn out, no he didn't. He sold it because he could no longer afford to fly it. And he first put in a zero time engine and got the breakin process started.
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If you read his article in Aprils Flying Mag fourth paragraph from the end he talks about keeping it not making any financial sense.

Let me know if you ever come out here to PHN with it.
 
RMCN172RG said:
If you read his article in Aprils Flying Mag fourth paragraph from the end he talks about keeping it not making any financial sense.
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Yes, I've read it. His fixed costs sounded kind of high to me, but a lot of it was luxury stuff like Jeppesen ChartView and a redundant IFR GPS database. He probably carried more insurance coverage than I plan to. I also wonder why he didn't try to sell a share in the plane. But it sounds like his income is very limited.

Let me know if you ever come out here to PHN with it.
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Again, you mean? :D I was there on Friday with Tom, after fueling at 57D. The place was spooky deserted. I'm glad no one was around to witness my landings, they were pretty bad.

No, count on it, I'll be up there to shoot the ILS at some point, I'll try to give you a heads up.
 
azure said:
Again, you mean? :D I was there on Friday with Tom, after fueling at 57D. The place was spooky deserted. I'm glad no one was around to witness my landings, they were pretty bad.

No, count on it, I'll be up there to shoot the ILS at some point, I'll try to give you a heads up.
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I was returning from Orlando on Delta so wouldn't have been able to get there.
 
I'm sure that you'll enjoy the plane. After a bit of dual it'll be very comfortable for you. I haven't come across any planes yet that are genuinely difficult to land, just needs a little practice.
 
Again, congrats- the 177RG is a sweet ride. Plus, you buy one that's got a great and public pedigree!

Gaston's would be a fine trip in a Cardinal, and the field there is no problem for such a plane. We'll count on you!
 
azure said:
Just thought I'd comment on this as an afterthought. When I first started flying the RG I thought it was a real dog on climbout and could never imagine taking off comfortably from a <3000' runway over a 100' obstacle. My checkout CFI pointed out that Cessna approves 10* of flaps for an ordinary takeoff, and that really brought me into the fold. With the added flaps for the first 500' or so of climb, the Cardinal RG really feels like a 182 and I saw climb rates of 800 fpm or so even in summer. Both that bird and this one had the three blade prop (old style Hartzell). Of course, once you dump the flaps it's more like 500-700 fpm tops, but my sensitive ears don't mind that at all.

With all due respect Steve, I never found the Cardinal hard to land before. I quickly learned to respect the stabilator, and my checkout CFI drilled into me to never raise the nose so high in the flare that I couldn't see over it. But other than being careful to use gentle pressure, I didn't find it an especially challenging plane to land.

My first landing in this one was a near disaster. I flew the final leg at 70 kts (I used to shoot for 65) yet the stabilator felt mushy in the roundout and actually failed to arrest my sink rate enough, causing the mains to hit kinda hard -- not enough to cause any damage (except to my ego :redface:) but definitely a waker-upper. Maybe the CG was more aft than I'm used to thanks to the seller's luggage and lots of extras in the back. We shouldn't have been anywhere near gross as we were low on fuel. After the go-around I did a greaser. Thought I'd recaptured the magic, but it was just "beginner's luck". Then came two more sucky landings and I was getting more and more upset at the wavy centerline + double horizon effect. I flew the seller to KYIP (hard touchdown -- totally blind landing due to the 160' runway) and then back to KVLL solo, where I managed an okay one by goosing the throttle.

I might need some dual in it anyway after 4 years of rust, but getting a clear view out front is priority #1 right now.
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I have a 71 Cardinal RG and they are not hard to land...just different than a 172 or 182. I have over 800 hours in my RG and I find that landing at 70 kias (80 MPH) is best with either 20 or 30 degrees of flaps. I usually land with 20 as it seems not to want to balloon as easily. Also, I don't bring the power to idle. I land with a little bit of power still in and withdraw it just as the mains touch down. Makes for a great smooth arrival.

The advise of a previous instructor to never raise the nose higher than you can see over is spot on. Just level the plane over the runway and let the speed bleed off and just as the plane wants to settle raise the cowling no higher than the end of the runway threshold. Hold it there until the mains touch.

It's a great airplane, you WILL develop an emotional attachment to it. It's a great IFR platform and you and your passengers will enjoy getting into the plane with it's low sitting attitude and huge doors. The previous poster who mentioned the wind catching the doors is also right on. No need to explain why I know this.

Figure on 30.00 dollar per hour for unforeseen maintenance and put about 13 dollars per hour away for the engine over-haul.

The oil on the cowling you mentioned might be from the prop/governor and require over-haul. Especially if the oil is very black and like little spots and small streaks. But it can be from the engine too. The engine has Thru-bolts that can leak and so can the case seam.

You mentioned the engine hesitates or sputters and is new? Hmmm. I would think a sticking valve if it wasn't new. Are you breaking the engine in with mineral oil and running it "hard" right now to seat the rings?

Anyway...best of luck with the new bird and welcome to not only to aircraft possession , but the exclusive club of Cardinal ownership and title. Check out www.cardinalflyers.com and join the Cardinal Digest and ask all the questions you want. There's TONS of wisdom there on this wonderful airplane.

Gene Wentzel - '71 Cessna Cardinal RG (N8207G)
 
azure said:
Is it okay to lean aggressively on the ground with a new engine? Lycoming doesn't seem to say yea or nay on that. I was leaning somewhat, but not aggressively (definitely not my preference, I'm a brutal leaner by habit). The roughness is present up to slightly above 1000 RPM, maybe 1200 or so.
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I've never heard a problem with leaning aggressively on the ground with a new engine. I say lean away.

Gene Wentzel - '71 Cardinal RG
 
azure said:
Is it okay to lean aggressively on the ground with a new engine? Lycoming doesn't seem to say yea or nay on that. I was leaning somewhat, but not aggressively (definitely not my preference, I'm a brutal leaner by habit). The roughness is present up to slightly above 1000 RPM, maybe 1200 or so.
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OMG!!!! You realize who's plane you bought?! That's Tom Benenson's plane from Flying Magazine! Checkout it out at: http://www.flyingmag.com/safety/maintenance/airwork-time-pull-plug

Gene Wentzel '71RG
 
azure said:
I guess it shows, huh? :redface:

Oh, I forgot to mention getting a pleasant surprise when I got in and bumped my head on... a Rosen visor! The owner never mentioned them as a selling point. Kinda makes up partly for the windshield flaw, which is why I accepted about half the price reduction I originally wanted (I figure about $1500 to replace the windshield).

I'll confess I almost pulled the plug on the deal when I saw how bad the windshield was.
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Aw, come on... You are working on your Instrument, right? What do you need to be able to see out the windshield for?:goofy:

But, I assume you are enjoying those giddy days following the purchase.

Looks like the only plunge I will be taking this weekend has a 2 foot wooden handle attached. Oh well. Keep looking.
 
drgwentzel said:
OMG!!!! You realize who's plane you bought?! That's Tom Benenson's plane from Flying Magazine! Checkout it out at: http://www.flyingmag.com/safety/maintenance/airwork-time-pull-plug

Gene Wentzel '71RG
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Of course, you don't think I bought it from a used car lot, do you? ;)

I went up with my CFII yesterday in the plane, and recaptured the old landing magic. My problem before really was the damn windshield. The workaround is to sit as high up as possible, even if your headset is pressing against the ceiling. I'm not crazy about doing that but otherwise the plane is unsafe to fly. The warp distorts your sense of distance and height above the runway.

I pointed out the sputter (more like a momentary hiccup) to my instructor who is also an A&P. He said a lot of engines do that, he doesn't know why and not to worry about it. It doesn't hesitate at all when power is applied, only when being run at idle under about 1200 RPM. I posted elsewhere that it only does it when leaned, but I verified yesterday that it does it full rich as well.

The oil leak is apparently fixed. It was the hose (or more likely the hose clamp, I've yet to get the bill from my mechanic) leading from the engine to the JPI monitor.

edit: I've already posted questions on the CFO digest and gotten some answers. That's where I found Tom's for sale ad. I've been on CFO for many years, ever since I was a non-equity partner in another '76 RG.
 
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azure said:
I went up with my CFII yesterday in the plane, and recaptured the old landing magic. My problem before really was the damn windshield. The workaround is to sit as high up as possible, even if your headset is pressing against the ceiling. I'm not crazy about doing that but otherwise the plane is unsafe to fly. The warp distorts your sense of distance and height above the runway.
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My windscreen is so bad it's like looking through an aquarium (I'm going to replace it soon, but dind't want the airplane grounded until I had the parts, time, and IA available).

You really don't need to look straight ahead (and you can't, on most taildraggers)

Look out the side on landing -- it works. :yesnod:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Congratulations on the plane! :yes:

Even if it did make the first post of the "ugly airplane" thread. ;) :D (I disagree, FWIW.)
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Please, please, please forgive me Liz, but from the first time I saw the picture I thought it quite ungainly. However, two things occur to me. The first is no one will mistake your aircraft for another, and there is something to be said about that. The second, the only one who counts in the pretty airplane contest is you. What I think doesn't matter at all. So congratulations on purchasing a famous airplane. We'll see you around.
 
dmccormack said:
My windscreen is so bad it's like looking through an aquarium (I'm going to replace it soon, but dind't want the airplane grounded until I had the parts, time, and IA available).

You really don't need to look straight ahead (and you can't, on most taildraggers)

Look out the side on landing -- it works. :yesnod:
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Actually, I wondered how taildragger pilots did it. So you're using the runway edge lights to judge your height? And if you're looking to the side, how do you know you're not drifting left or right?

I'm sure it can be done but I'm not sure I want to learn a whole new way of landing an airplane just so I don't prang it before I can get the windshield replaced.

Like looking through an aquarium -- ha! Yes. That's exactly what it's like. :yes:
 
steingar said:
Please, please, please forgive me Liz, but from the first time I saw the picture I thought it quite ungainly. However, two things occur to me. The first is no one will mistake your aircraft for another, and there is something to be said about that. The second, the only one who counts in the pretty airplane contest is you. What I think doesn't matter at all. So congratulations on purchasing a famous airplane. We'll see you around.
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I didn't like the paint scheme either the first time I saw it. The tailfeathers struck me as if he was trying for an "Indian chief" effect. But if you look at it from the side, the striping is clearly the lines of a cardinal (the bird), from the crest to the tail. I actually think it looks kinda snazzy.

Now the symbols on the door, I agree are truly ugly. Tom said they're his cattle brand. Can't see putting that on an airplane. :nonod:
 
azure said:
Actually, I wondered how taildragger pilots did it. So you're using the runway edge lights to judge your height? And if you're looking to the side, how do you know you're not drifting left or right?

I'm sure it can be done but I'm not sure I want to learn a whole new way of landing an airplane just so I don't prang it before I can get the windshield replaced.

Like looking through an aquarium -- ha! Yes. That's exactly what it's like. :yes:
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We all have to change focus gradually from straight ahead (make sure the runway is lined up) to sorta out the side (the bent corner of the windscreen to left-front) to the side.

Which isn't so bad, because it's far easier to judge height above ground looking off to the side than straight ahead.

Since I prefer landing on grass, you just have to be able to tell if you're 5' or 6" above the grass. Looking out a lot while taxiing will help develop that skill.

I've forced students to look out the side in nosedragegrs when they level off too high. Works wonders. :yesnod:
 
dmccormack said:
We all have to change focus gradually from straight ahead (make sure the runway is lined up) to sorta out the side (the bent corner of the windscreen to left-front) to the side.
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Sure, I do that too -- always found it much more reliable than fixating on the far end of the runway. Especially at night, when there just isn't enough visual reference to judge height looking out front only.

Which isn't so bad, because it's far easier to judge height above ground looking off to the side than straight ahead.
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Agreed! But again, without a point of reference in front, how do you know whether you've arrested lateral drift?
 
Regarding the paint.

I actually like the tail feathers, what bothers me is the droop and the break of the stripe on the fuselage. If that stripe ran continuously and just below the sinde windows, that would be sweet. Right now it looks like a very bad survey job of laying out the transcontinental railroad. But then again, who am I to talk about ugly paint on their plane. :D
 
azure said:
Agreed! But again, without a point of reference in front, how do you know whether you've arrested lateral drift?
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Good question, and I finally (yeah, took some time :redface:) figured out that there is a spot along the cowling seam that is a straight line equal to where the airplane is pointing. I use that as a reference check. It's a series of glances, but I don't fixate on either (drift isn't instantaneous).
 
EdFred said:
Regarding the paint.

I actually like the tail feathers, what bothers me is the droop and the break of the stripe on the fuselage. If that stripe ran continuously and just below the sinde windows, that would be sweet. Right now it looks like a very bad survey job of laying out the transcontinental railroad. But then again, who am I to talk about ugly paint on their plane. :D
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The stripe is the line of a bird's body. The droop is the outline of the bird's breast. I can't quite explain why the break works, I'm not an artist. It does for me though. It either works for you, or it doesn't. :dunno:
 
azure said:
The stripe is the line of a bird's body. The droop is the outline of the bird's breast. I can't quite explain why the break works, I'm not an artist. It does for me though. It either works for you, or it doesn't. :dunno:
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Yeah, I am too much of a left brain. I like continuity and balance. I'm gonna get some red duct tape and fix it for you. :eek::D
 
Just out of curiosity, are the stripes vinyl, or are they painted on? I agree with you that the paint job isn't so bad, it's the cattle brand that kinda screws it up.
 
vontresc said:
Just out of curiosity, are the stripes vinyl, or are they painted on? I agree with you that the paint job isn't so bad, it's the cattle brand that kinda screws it up.
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They're painted. I wonder whether vinyl on the exterior would even be allowed without an STC?

Yeah, the cattle brands are strange. I'm almost tempted to just paint them over, but I doubt it could be made to match. I'd probably have to paint the whole airplane then, and it's not worth it. The paint is showing its age a little, but it's still okay.
 
azure said:
They're painted. I wonder whether vinyl on the exterior would even be allowed without an STC?

Yeah, the cattle brands are strange. I'm almost tempted to just paint them over, but I doubt it could be made to match. I'd probably have to paint the whole airplane then, and it's not worth it. The paint is showing its age a little, but it's still okay.
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maybe you can extend the lines and make it less Lazy Y-ish?

:dunno:
 
dmccormack said:
maybe you can extend the lines and make it less Lazy Y-ish?

:dunno:
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Yeah, I was thinking about that too. In keeping with the design though it should represent some part of the bird. The wings are (permanently) outstretched of course.

I'll have to dig up my Audubon guide and see if I can entice the Muse of Inspiration to pay me a visit. :princess:
 
RMCN172RG said:
I won't comment on the paint until I see it in person.
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One of these days for sure, Ray. I was there yesterday again with my CFII, but I'm not gonna pay him for time on the ground showing off my new bird. :nonod:
 
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