Took the plunge today...

azure

azure

Final Approach
Joined
Apr 2, 2005
Messages
8,293
Location
Varmint Country
Display Name
Display name:
azure
... and bought an airplane! Pictures to come when I have them. It's the '76 Cardinal RG I've been looking at for the last month. I'm excited and exhausted. The seller checked me out in the bird and we agreed on a slight reduction in sale price due to a windshield flaw. The avionics in the panel are much more complicated than anything I've ever used and the learning curve will be a steep one, but that's okay.

I've found a few squawks already. There are a few trickles of oil from the front of the cowling, left side top, that appear after every flight. Our local resident airport mechanic is looking at it tonight.

The engine "burps" every once in a while at idling rpm, a kind of momentary "sputter". I think I also heard one or two backfires. This has got me worried also, as it's a zero time Lycoming factory reman. Can't imagine why it would do this.

The windshield will need to be replaced. The "flaw" is a ripple right in front of the pilot's seat that badly distorts the view straight ahead. I nearly pranged my first landing due partly to not being able to clearly see the runway. The seller said he's never noticed it. (?!)

The brakes work but need to be stomped on very hard. The pads have plenty of thickness. Resident mechanic opined that maybe there's some air in the system.

I'm sure there'll be a few more squawks to come... hoping for the best though.
 
Congratulations, and welcome to the bottomless pit known as plane ownership! This is your first one, right?
 
gprellwitz said:
Congratulations, and welcome to the bottomless pit known as plane ownership! This is your first one, right?
Click to expand...
I guess it shows, huh? :redface:

Oh, I forgot to mention getting a pleasant surprise when I got in and bumped my head on... a Rosen visor! The owner never mentioned them as a selling point. Kinda makes up partly for the windshield flaw, which is why I accepted about half the price reduction I originally wanted (I figure about $1500 to replace the windshield).

I'll confess I almost pulled the plug on the deal when I saw how bad the windshield was.
 
azure said:
The engine "burps" every once in a while at idling rpm, a kind of momentary "sputter". I think I also heard one or two backfires.
Click to expand...
Are you leaning properly on the ground? I would venture a guess that you're running way too rich, which is often the cause for these issues. Lean until the engine is about to quit, then go just a tiny bit richer from there. You want to lean so much on the ground that adding a lot of power will cause the engine to quit.

Also, new engines are much more likely to have issues, so I wouldn't think that the fact that it's a new engine makes it in any way less likely that you'll see problems in the future. If anything, it makes it more likely for the next ~200 hrs.

Congrats on the new plane!

-Felix
 
You probably already know this, but be sure to join the Cardinal type club for lots of technical and social support as a Cardinal owner.

http://www.cardinalflyers.com/

Some dismiss the 177 model as "quirky" but I put 700 hrs on a '72 fixed gear and found it to be a very honest plane to own and fly. The RG offers a little more speed at the expense of some baggage space, but flies nicely, too.

Might consider a tinted windshield replacement or possibly a thicker one. That windshield is so large expect to pay a bit more than one for a 172 or 182.

http://www.lpaero.com/images/cessna2.html

http://www.glapinc.com/Cessna/c-177.htm

A few personal observations on the Cardinal model:

1. Be careful not to let those big doors slam against the stops wtih a tailwind on the ground. Can cause major damage to the hinge attach points. A mod is available which can minimize the potential damage if not already installed.

http://www.mtnviewaviation.com/Cessna-Cardinal-177-177RG.htm

2. Like many Cessnas, the fit around the windshield and cabin windows is not perfect. Watch for in-leakage after a rain (if left outside) or after a wash job. I found the worst areas on my plane were the rear window and the upper wing root fairing adjacent to the windshield. Be sure to use an approved sealing material to correct.

3. If your doors don't close tightly you might consider upgrading the gasket to one that will seal the gap.

http://aero-pma-parts.com/Air-Squeeze-Kit.htm

4. Some pilots had problems getting use to landing the Cardinal smoothly early on. I found that landings were consistently better if I practiced getting the yoke full aft just at touchdown without over rotating. Maintaining consistent back pressure during the descent and round out to touchdown involved bringing the yoke back slowly but continuously as the speed bled off. Like any well flown plane energy management is the key. The fewer power changes you make during approach to landing the more satisfying the outcome tends to be, imho.

5. Get comfortable with slow flight in the plane and you'll find flying in and out of shorter fields to be a non-issue as long as you stay below gross. Lightly loaded I found 1800' strips with open approaches to be fun destinations.

6. Don't think all that room equates to heavy lift capability. The empty weight is higher than a 172 with not much more HP. The RG is a little more power than the FG, but don't expect either to climb like a bat out of hell when heavy or hot. More like an owl with a big rabbit in its talons. A little patience and good planning will make for few surprises on climbout.

Enjoy the plane. It's a great IFR trainer and comfortable x-c aircraft. I still consider it the best looking airframe to come out of Wichita.
 
I'll have to differ from Felix on this one.

When I got my engine back from overhaul it did the same thing at idle. No amount of leaning would improve the engine smoothness. At cruise power the engine ran fine and all the cylinders temps were relatively even. At idle the #4 cylinder EGT ran "way high" compared to the other 5 cylinders (and this is on a fuel-injected engine, too).

The obvious culprit was an induction air leak causing the associated cylinder to run very lean at idle fuel flows, which can cause a mis-fire (try taking off with too lean a mixture and see for yourself). At idle the throttle is nearly closed so there is not much air to "share" making the cylinder with the induction leak much more noticeable as it causes that cylinder to run much leaner. At cruise the throttle is near full open so each cylinder is getting more air to "share" and an induction leak has less impact on overall air distribution and therefore is less noticeable.

However, after replacing the gaskets and o-rings on the associated cylinder induction tube, there was no noticeable improvement at idle in the #4 cylinder. After troubleshooting by a more knowledgeable mechanic the problem was traced to a leaking gascolator gasket. It seems the engine driven fuel pump at idle was pulling air in through gasket leak which preferentially ended up in the #4 cylinder. At cruise power the engine driven pump pulled enough fuel to over come the air entrainment, or possibly the greater suction pulled the gascolator gasket/housing tighter and eliminated the leak. In any case, re-seating the gascolator gasket properly eliminated the "miss" and singularly high EGT on the #4 cylinder at idle.

So...check for air leaks on the induction system and the fuel system. If an induction leak can not be pinpointed then consider checking for air in the fuel supply by disconnecting the line at the distribution spider and running the boost pump. You should get a steady stream of fuel, if not, start looking for a leak upstream (all done under the supervision of a qualified mechanic, of course). Since the fuel system was disturbed at engine changeout it's not inconceivable a fitting or other component might be leaking.

And use a multi-channel engine analyzer. If you don't have one, get one. Best tool for tracking down bad acting cylinders, imho.

Just my 2¢.

oh, and for the oil leak, check the oil drain back hose clamps (under each cylinder). there's a low pressure area behind the prop spinner bulkhead that can pull loose oil forward from underneath the baffling. before overhaul i had oil seepage that ended up in the starter gear housing and was pulled forward around the ring gear


azure said:
...The engine "burps" every once in a while at idling rpm, a kind of momentary "sputter". I think I also heard one or two backfires. This has got me worried also, as it's a zero time Lycoming factory reman. Can't imagine why it would do this.

.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Thanks Steve and Felix!

I didn't think to check the engine monitor on the ground so I'm not sure if there's one cylinder running way high. They're fairly even at 75% power, with 1 and 2 about 50 degrees cooler than 3 and 4. The engine analyzer is a JPI EDM 700. I do get the impression that leaning on the ground aggravates the problem but I haven't had enough experience yet to be sure. BTW I've always done "brutal leaning" on the ground --- but the seller wasn't sure if that was a good idea during the break-in period, so yesterday I leaned that engine VERY conservatively.

Yep, I'm on CFO and already asked about the leak and windshield there (my post will probably be in the next digest). I've been a CFO member since '03. On the windshield, how much would you estimate for the Cardinal? More than $1500? This is my #1 priority now. I used to do whisper smooth landings every time in the Cardinal RG I used to fly (I have over 100 hours in it), okay sure that was 4 years ago and my muscles may have lost the feel. But I normally scan the runway up and down to the far end to judge my height above it and right now the centerline is a rippling snake and I see two images of the far end one above the other. I can get some idea using the runway edge lights but the distortion is VERY distracting, like having a passenger flapping their hands in front of your face as you're trying to flare. Not good. :(
 
azure said:
... and bought an airplane! Pictures to come when I have them. It's the '76 Cardinal RG I've been looking at for the last month. I'm excited and exhausted. The seller checked me out in the bird and we agreed on a slight reduction in sale price due to a windshield flaw. The avionics in the panel are much more complicated than anything I've ever used and the learning curve will be a steep one, but that's okay.

I've found a few squawks already. There are a few trickles of oil from the front of the cowling, left side top, that appear after every flight. Our local resident airport mechanic is looking at it tonight.

The engine "burps" every once in a while at idling rpm, a kind of momentary "sputter". I think I also heard one or two backfires. This has got me worried also, as it's a zero time Lycoming factory reman. Can't imagine why it would do this.

The windshield will need to be replaced. The "flaw" is a ripple right in front of the pilot's seat that badly distorts the view straight ahead. I nearly pranged my first landing due partly to not being able to clearly see the runway. The seller said he's never noticed it. (?!)

The brakes work but need to be stomped on very hard. The pads have plenty of thickness. Resident mechanic opined that maybe there's some air in the system.

I'm sure there'll be a few more squawks to come... hoping for the best though.
Click to expand...


Congrats on the bird. As for the emboldened, are you leaning aggressively on the ground? What you are describing is not uncommon for those engines if you leave them idling at full rich mixture. Could also be a weak/improperly gapped plug. Low idle RPM can also be a contributor as the magnetos aren't making full power. If the condition goes away by 800 RPM, I wouldn't be overly concerned. Might have the mechanic check the internal and static magneto timing as well as points dwell. Factory Reman doesn't mean much to me.
 
Congratulations on the plane! I look forward to the pictures.
 
I'm jealous. I got to fly one locally a few weeks ago and enjoyed it. Now if I only thought I could afford it. :D
 
Henning said:
Congrats on the bird. As for the emboldened, are you leaning aggressively on the ground? What you are describing is not uncommon for those engines if you leave them idling at full rich mixture. Could also be a weak/improperly gapped plug. Low idle RPM can also be a contributor as the magnetos aren't making full power. If the condition goes away by 800 RPM, I wouldn't be overly concerned. Might have the mechanic check the internal and static magneto timing as well as points dwell. Factory Reman doesn't mean much to me.
Click to expand...
Is it okay to lean aggressively on the ground with a new engine? Lycoming doesn't seem to say yea or nay on that. I was leaning somewhat, but not aggressively (definitely not my preference, I'm a brutal leaner by habit). The roughness is present up to slightly above 1000 RPM, maybe 1200 or so.
 
azure said:
Is it okay to lean aggressively on the ground with a new engine?
Click to expand...

Any engine, as long as you're not going to takeoff power on the taxiway. :yesnod:

A lean mixture will only cause problems at higher power settings. If it's so lean the engine is stumbling at idle, enrich a bit -- won't hurt.

With most SEL we're not going much above 1000 RPM to move around (unless you're maneuvering around in wet turf, sand, etc).
 
Steve, I missed your links the first time. Okay, about $400 for a normal thickness windshield, plus labor. That's not too bad. I'll look into the thicker option too, thanks.
 
Cardinal RG is a fine flying airplane, and I second the emotion that it's one of the best-looking planes Cessna built.

There is no rational reason ever to own your own airplane - it's nuts. So, Congratulations, and welcome to the club!
 
azure said:
I guess it shows, huh? :redface:

Oh, I forgot to mention getting a pleasant surprise when I got in and bumped my head on... a Rosen visor! The owner never mentioned them as a selling point. Kinda makes up partly for the windshield flaw, which is why I accepted about half the price reduction I originally wanted (I figure about $1500 to replace the windshield).

I'll confess I almost pulled the plug on the deal when I saw how bad the windshield was.
Click to expand...

$1,500 here, $1,500 there, pretty soon you will be talking real airplane ownership. Congratulations. Even with the extra expense it is great to have a plane whenever you want one, and it's the one your used to.
No more opening up a plane that smells like old puke, or picking up nasty looking Kleenex and towels.

No longer will you have to feel like your groveling just to rent a questionable old wreck for an hour or two. I think you should call Lycoming about that engine, it should not be coughing and sputtering, even occasionally.

John
 
Great choice! A Cardinal RG is a wonderful plane. Good luck!
 
After attending the Lycoming engine school while the engine was out for a makeover and drinking a little of their koolaid I'm fairly convinced that a properly set up engine and fuel servo/carb should not require leaning on the ground at sea level , which is pretty close to where I operate most of the time, during normal idle operations. "hi elevation airports" sure, but not for flatlander flying, imho. If "agressive leaning" seems to help something else is most likely causing the problem.

watch that analyzer on the ground and see if it is trying to tell you something, its amazing what can be deduced from the seemly limited data presented, at least to me

btw, i use iridium fine wire plugs which are less prone to fouling, so that can help, too. ran the first set to 800 hrs before needing attention, but they were inspected routinely just to be sure.

one other thing to watch for on the analyzer is a "cold" cylinder egt. if the engine appears to run fairly smoothly otherwise, it could indicate a cracked exhaust pipe mounting flange at the cylinder exhaust port.

don't ask me how i kno.....:rolleyes:

also, if the "new" engine has more than say 10 or so hrs then the rings will have mostly likely have already "seated" if they were going to (and the initial break runs were done properly, lot of ifs) Lycoming says 50, but that is a very conservative number in my experience. temps stable and oil consumption stable then run it "normally". at the high power setting recommended for initial runs you shouldn't be leaning any more then normal anyway. not sure what "agressive leaning" means that's different from normal recommended leaning procedures.

if your schedule permits it, consider taking the Lyc class

http://www.lycoming.com/support/training/piston-engine-service-school.html

a lot of good information for operating lycoming engines is provided, even if you don't plan on becoming a mechanic

(missa, just leave the amount blank on the signed check when you send it):D



azure said:
Is it okay to lean aggressively on the ground with a new engine? Lycoming doesn't seem to say yea or nay on that. I was leaning somewhat, but not aggressively (definitely not my preference, I'm a brutal leaner by habit). The roughness is present up to slightly above 1000 RPM, maybe 1200 or so.
Click to expand...
 
I'll be happy to right seat and let you goof with the avionics in flight.
 
Congratulations! :cheerswine:

Looking forward to seeing it soon - perhaps fueling at Ray.
Where will you be hangaring?
 
:needpics:

Liz Mazel Tov that is awesome. the 177 is a classy plane. I think you should fly her down to the Wings FlyBQ so we can all get a look see.:D
 
Hey y'all, thanks!

Steve, "brutal leaning" just means leaning (on the ground only, of course!) to the point where applying even run-up power will get your attention. I've heard arguments both ways as to whether it's necessary, but personally have found less mag fouling by doing it, 90% of the CFIs I've flown with say to do it, and 100% of the ones I've asked say that if you're going to lean on the ground at all, do it that way.

(I'm not a mechanic and don't pretend to understand the arguments, though I'd like to. That class sounds like it might be a good investment.)

Obviously I won't know for sure at what point oil consumption stabilizes until that leak is fixed.

Ed, I may take you up on that offer. Right now I'm afraid to try to land the plane without a CFI in the right seat. (The windshield on that side is fine, go figure. :dunno:)

Liz, I'll be doing a lot of fueling over at Ray. I applied for a Blue Card on Thursday. I'm told there's someone on the field who replaces windshields so I might even have that done there. Looking forward to a chance to show off the new bird! (edit: forgot to say I'll be hangaring at KVLL for now).

Adam, where and when is Wings again?
 
Last edited:
Congrats on the new bird Liz...
 
azure said:
Ed, I may take you up on that offer. Right now I'm afraid to try to land the plane without a CFI in the right seat. (The windshield on that side is fine, go figure. :dunno:)
Click to expand...

azure said:
Hmmm... I'm guessing that's a 6Y9er in-group joke. I hope to make it this year. :yesnod:
Click to expand...

I am a CFI. :D

6Y9, is 2600'. We will never have an ILS in there, let alone a Cat II approach.

Wings is May 15th. (KLOM)
 
EdFred said:
I am a CFI. :D
Click to expand...
Yup, I know!. :D

6Y9, is 2600'. We will never have an ILS in there, let alone a Cat II approach.
Click to expand...
Well the field isn't even on the enroute chart much less in green, so I figured it was something like that. I wasn't sure whether there was more to it than that though.

Wings is May 15th. (KLOM)
Click to expand...
Okay, thanks! I doubt I'll make that one, at least not in 8JT. Gotta get that new windshield first before I do any trips. :(
 
Steve said:
6. Don't think all that room equates to heavy lift capability. The empty weight is higher than a 172 with not much more HP. The RG is a little more power than the FG, but don't expect either to climb like a bat out of hell when heavy or hot. More like an owl with a big rabbit in its talons. A little patience and good planning will make for few surprises on climbout.
Click to expand...
Just thought I'd comment on this as an afterthought. When I first started flying the RG I thought it was a real dog on climbout and could never imagine taking off comfortably from a <3000' runway over a 100' obstacle. My checkout CFI pointed out that Cessna approves 10* of flaps for an ordinary takeoff, and that really brought me into the fold. With the added flaps for the first 500' or so of climb, the Cardinal RG really feels like a 182 and I saw climb rates of 800 fpm or so even in summer. Both that bird and this one had the three blade prop (old style Hartzell). Of course, once you dump the flaps it's more like 500-700 fpm tops, but my sensitive ears don't mind that at all.

With all due respect Steve, I never found the Cardinal hard to land before. I quickly learned to respect the stabilator, and my checkout CFI drilled into me to never raise the nose so high in the flare that I couldn't see over it. But other than being careful to use gentle pressure, I didn't find it an especially challenging plane to land.

My first landing in this one was a near disaster. I flew the final leg at 70 kts (I used to shoot for 65) yet the stabilator felt mushy in the roundout and actually failed to arrest my sink rate enough, causing the mains to hit kinda hard -- not enough to cause any damage (except to my ego :redface:) but definitely a waker-upper. Maybe the CG was more aft than I'm used to thanks to the seller's luggage and lots of extras in the back. We shouldn't have been anywhere near gross as we were low on fuel. After the go-around I did a greaser. Thought I'd recaptured the magic, but it was just "beginner's luck". Then came two more sucky landings and I was getting more and more upset at the wavy centerline + double horizon effect. I flew the seller to KYIP (hard touchdown -- totally blind landing due to the 160' runway) and then back to KVLL solo, where I managed an okay one by goosing the throttle.

I might need some dual in it anyway after 4 years of rust, but getting a clear view out front is priority #1 right now.
 
I was referring to the original '68 150hp version in regards to landing problems. Pilots familiar with 172 handling characteristics were crumpling firewalls on the 177. From that the Cardinal Rule came out that put slots in the stabilator in an effort increase slow speed effectiveness, among other enhancements. It just has a different "feel" than the venerable 172 when landing.

I love those huge flaps, made for great short field (for a tricycle gear Cessna) performance. I entered several local and regional landing contests with the '72 FG and placed or won a few of the precision spot landing events. A very docile yet responsive design. It does seem a bit more sensitive to CG than other high wing Cessnas.

I had bought one before I finished my initial flight training in a C150 but didn't fly it solo, or land it at all, until I passed the checkride. The day I did I jumped in it and flew it around the pattern solo and found it very straightforward to get a decent landing. My CFI had a rental Cardinal and had advised what to watch for beforehand. I stayed with the C150 thru initial training because that was main source of the FBO's income at the time and I felt it was important to support them in that regard until I was "cut loose".


azure said:
With all due respect Steve, I never found the Cardinal hard to land before. I quickly learned to respect the stabilator, and my checkout CFI drilled into me to never raise the nose so high in the flare that I couldn't see over it. But other than being careful to use gentle pressure, I didn't find it an especially challenging plane to land.
Click to expand...
 
AdamZ said:
The weekend of May 15 at Wings Field KLOM . Also FYI Ed made it here in a cherokee in 3.5 hours
Click to expand...
I should be able to do it in less than 3 in 8JT, maybe closer to 2.5 with a 20 kt tailwind. But it'll probably have to be next year. I expect getting the windshield in and installed will take at least 3 weeks. :(
 
Roger that Steve. From a 150 to a 177 right after the checkride is quite the one step transition. Wow, I'm impressed!

I first flew my friend's RG as a 20 hour student pilot. She put me in the left seat, which wasn't the best decision as she wasn't a CFI. All I had ever landed up to then was a 150 and maybe a couple in a Cherokee. She had to save all of my tries and we nearly pranged as it was her first time landing from the right seat. But about 9 months after I passed my checkride, we flew a trip to and back from KATW with me in the left seat. Those were my first two landings in the RG and I didn't find the handling to be difficult at all. That was a few months before my insurance checkout/complex endorsement. My next 100 hours were all in that bird and I got to where I could grease it nearly every time, even on runways with only ~1500' available landing distance.

But that was with a few hundred hours total in my logbook already, not as a newly minted PP-ASEL. So yes, I'm impressed. And feeling kinda low, here at over 600 TT feeling like a total beginner in 8JT. Baby steps again... get the plane fixed first, then get some dual and figure out what I'm doing wrong.
 
Hey Liz, nice airplane... The Cardinal's are really good looking and sweethearts to fly and are a piece of cake to shoot an ILS with... When I was between the Super Viking and the Apache, I rented the local FBO's RG... We flew it quite often from Saginaw to Cleveland's Medina airport, and also to Port Clinton / Put-In-Bay - visiting the kids... I put a probably a hundred hours on it... If I go back to a single the Cardinal will be high on my list... I like the big doors and step-in entry...

cheers,
denny-o
 
My mechanic says the oil leak is from the hose leading from the engine to the JPI. Not sure if it's the hose itself, or a fitting. Breathing a sigh of relief that it was nothing major, and hoping that relief will not be short-lived.
 
Yay!

(btw, wasn't looking for an attaboy, just trying to demonstrate how easy the 177 really is to fly with proper guidance. a lot of OWTs about how "different" it is out there).

Now to add Gaston's to the flight log.... ;)

azure said:
My mechanic says the oil leak is from the hose leading from the engine to the JPI. Not sure if it's the hose itself, or a fitting. Breathing a sigh of relief that it was nothing major, and hoping that relief will not be short-lived.
Click to expand...
 
Steve said:
(btw, wasn't looking for an attaboy, just trying to demonstrate how easy the 177 really is to fly with proper guidance. a lot of OWTs about how "different" it is out there).
Click to expand...
Yes I wasn't sure if I was missing something, or we were simply in "strenuous agreement". :D

Lots of OWTs out there about the 177 I agree. Another is that it is badly underpowered. The 150 hp '68s certainly were, but I don't think any 177B or RG is at all underpowered, even if they don't have the greatest climb performance. BTW I was seeing 135-140 KIAS in 8JT at 2500 MSL, 75% power. The seller said that's about 10 kts faster than he used to see before putting in the new engine, and ~15 kts faster than I used to see in the first 177RG I flew (though maybe the comparison is unfair because I would usually run it dialed back to 65-70%). That seems very good to me for a 3 blade prop. I figure I will probably see similar KTAS at altitude, maybe a little more.

It's an ambition of mine to fly in to Gaston's some day. Maybe this summer. :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top