Today's my big court trial - advice?

[frfly172]

As to wasting the officers time,you might have actually gotten them some overtime pay,if they where on a day off.

 

[N801BH]

My guess still remains: he measured one car violating, and somehow scrogged up the relay to the ground officer who stopped the wrong car.

One of my questions to both officers was "did you observe any erratic driving? Swerving, cutting into and out of lanes, etc." Both said no.

So how was I going 101 (I was wrong on the speed, it wasn't 108) in rush hour with traffic marked as "heavy" by the officers own admission without weaving in and out?

That's the mystery. But how do you prove that?

Personally, I would have driven that point home and then rested.......

You can bet the judge and both officers drive that same road daily and know damn well you CANNOT go 101 MPH in "heavy" traffic..

 

[Lawreston]

Last of all, a person that uses themselves for a lawyer has a fool for a lawyer. Open up the wallet and get a professional if you really want to "beat" the ticket.
.

I think the phrase is closer to "Man who acts as own attorney has fool for a client," (not "lawyer").

HR

 

[Geico266]

Slow down, don't drive to bring attention to your self, next time pay the ticket.


I've fought every speeding ticket I have ever gotten. Never won.

In Nebraska you plead "guilty", "not guilty", or "no contest" ... which means guilty.

 

[narchee]

So instead of just paying the fine, you paid the fine plus $40 and many wasted hours. You took time off work? The cost was quite substantial. The outcome was predictable. If you enjoyed the process though then look at it as paying for entertainment. Sort of a vacation at the court house.

 

[JGoodish]

Damned if I didn't just realize that to make a 90 degree turn at 60 degrees of bank, it would have taken considerably more time - like 10 seconds or so (assuming a standard rate turn is 3 degrees per second and occurs at 30 degrees of bank, I figure you double that and get 6 degrees per second).

Even if the math's wrong, I doubt it would have been challenged for accuracy.

Son of a *****.

I'm still trying to figure out what you think you got out of this, other than experience making a losing argument in court. You admitted in a previous post that you were likely speeding (guilty), but disputed the speed at which you were cited. It seems to me that you could have successfully argued that down to something lower and walked away with a reduced fine and without such a significant investment in your time.


JKG

 

[N801BH]

Slow down, don't drive to bring attention to your self, next time pay the ticket.


I've fought every speeding ticket I have ever gotten. Never won.

In Nebraska you plead "guilty", "not guilty", or "no contest" ... which means guilty.

Yeah, But....

Larry.....

Nick says he wasn't going 101 MPH.... They clearly pulled over the wrong car..... If it were me, I would have documented all that Nick did,,,, record the hearing and post it on Youtube and make the judge, cops and prosecutor look like the crooks they are....

Simply.. there is NO way you can go 101 MPH in heavy traffic for 2 miles without weaving... Absolutely NO way... Ain't gonna happen.....

Nick got sucked into a money making scam run by the guvmint....

 

[flyingron]

I'd move!



In Wyoming the speed limit is 80 on some of their interstates.

Stay out of Virginia. You'd likely get suspended at 80 (it's where it becomes criminal) unless you can plead it down and at 100 is where you can guarantee most judges will throw you in the drunk tank for a few days.

 

[Matthew]

Stay out of Virginia. You'd likely get suspended at 80 (it's where it becomes criminal) unless you can plead it down and at 100 is where you can guarantee most judges will throw you in the drunk tank for a few days.

Yeah, well, I learned to drive in VA. Can't remember much about the interstates except seeing signs posted that said radar detectors were illegal.

Western states are quite different in their treatment of speeding on interstates. In KS the speed limits are 75 once you get out of town. Folks normally drive +5 with impunity.

What really sucked for a long time was the speed limit in KS was 70, and the speed limit in CO was 65. The CO highway patrol set up stops right at the "Welcome to Colorado" sign. I got the say hello to a trooper once...

 

[narchee]

It seems to me that you could have successfully argued that down to something lower and walked away with a reduced fine and without such a significant investment in your time.

Yep. I've done exactly that twice (no lawyer). It costs everyone money to waste the court's time with somebody who is guilty trying to argue his way out of paying what he owes. Unless you're a prick about it, it is highly likely you can get a reduced fine and get it so it is not reported on your record which was the big deal for me. Everyone wins then. You don't cost the court wasted time and money and you get a break. The ones who lose are the ones who try to fight it with their amateurish arguments. Once you're found guilty you're not going to get any break because (a) you're guilty and (b) you wasted a bunch of people's time.

Now go forth and sin no more

 

[Matthew]

The judge was probably thinking, "They are so cute when they come in my courtroom thinking they can get a "not guilty" verdict."

 

[SkyHog]

I'm still trying to figure out what you think you got out of this, other than experience making a losing argument in court. You admitted in a previous post that you were likely speeding (guilty), but disputed the speed at which you were cited. It seems to me that you could have successfully argued that down to something lower and walked away with a reduced fine and without such a significant investment in your time.


JKG

The assumption is incorrect. Douglas County had a very strict plea bargain policy for these events. Basically, I was offered some lame plea bargain of $15 off the ticket and no point reduction and when I tried to negotiate it, was told that was not a possibility.

Before the trial, the officers met with me and I asked about a plea deal and they told me they would not be allowed to offer one.

No one else in court that day were offered one either.

So my choice was either:

A: Pay the full fine and get the points
B: At least try to fight It.

As for "likely speeding," I never said that. What I said was that no one - yourself included - can positively say they were not driving a few miles over the speed limit short of using cruise control. That said, you would know if you were driving 30mph over.

 

[SkyHog]

By the way, the trial was a strange one. No district attorney, and the officers put on their own case. It was called an "informal hearing" which I presume is because the officers aren't lawyers and unlikely to be able to argue law against someone with a lawyer.

 

[josephbelt01]

I've been pretty successful representing myself in court. I only have experience in PA, but at least in that state one thing to remember is the lowest level court has almost complete discretion to do whatever they want. It's so informal there are basically no rules. I even experienced a time when the officer was a no-show for a physical harassment citation (I was a witness...wise asses) and the judge played the role of prosecutor rather than dismiss the citation against the defendant. You need to request a hearing de novo at the county level if you want rules of evidence, procedures, and formality. Don't be intimidated by the system. It really boils down to who can tell the best lie. Ethics in the legal system are a joke. "I was cited for traveling 101 MPH on XYZ highway on XYZ day at XYZ time. I intend to prove that is not possible." You can argue the traffic is so slow and dense it would be improbable that you'd have the ability to move that quickly. You then bring in your buddy who is a "mechanic" to testify the vehicle has a transmission problem and it isn't capable of leaving 2rd gear. Top speed at red line is maybe 80. lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Lindberg]

As Nick said, a lawyer would not have put the time and effort into this case that He did unless it was pro bono just for the heck of it. What a lawyer might have done is work out a deal that reduced the infraction to some type of non-moving violation so that possible insurance premium increases were not also a potential penalty.

Of course, I say that from the standpoint of one who never handled a traffic case unless criminal penalties were involved.

Good job Nick. And glad you felt you got your day in court.

IME, the lawyer will get continuance after continuance after continuance, and then dismissal. When a cop spends all day writing tickets, they're all set for the same court date. So he's guaranteed to be there. When you get a continuance, you might be the only case he has set that day, and he'd rather be out writing tickets than spend the day in court for one joker.

In some courts here, an appeal is de novo. So the attorney will enter no lo pleas and then show up at the county court with a stack of appeals looking or jury trials. Of course the county court has no interest in that, so....

The last ticket I got, I was absolutely not guilty. It was a school-zone violation after the school-zone was inactive. When I explained this to the guy I use for tickets, he just laughed. It's irrelevant. Traffic court is probably the most slanted system out there. You aren't going to win on the merits if it comes to that. You've got to win procedurally.

The guys who do this don't spend a lot of time on any particular case. It's usually a sideline, and they make money on the volume and by having a paralegal handle the legwork. You should look up the guys in your area. Around here most of them are about $75, but they work free for other sharks.

 

[Sac Arrow]

So instead of just paying the fine, you paid the fine plus $40 and many wasted hours. You took time off work? The cost was quite substantial. The outcome was predictable. If you enjoyed the process though then look at it as paying for entertainment. Sort of a vacation at the court house.

I don't feel that way. I think too many people cave in to traffic tickets. I feel that if they have the right to burden you by shaking you down for revenue money, you have a right to burden them with their time and effort to present their case. If everyone in the country challenged every traffic infraction, every time, I suspect the driver for enforcement would shift from revenue to safety.

 

[steingar]

While I dislike traffic tickets as much as anyone, I doubt I would contest an infraction of which I was guilty. I imagine many people are like me.

 

[jtheune]

I have gone to court for almost every ticket I have gotten in the last 40 years. While I have only gotten 1 in the last 10 years there wss a time when I visited the various courthouses on a more frequent basis. In all those trips I have plead guilty with a few explanations along the way. I have always gotten the fines reduced and sometimes thd points as well. I think the key has been that I dŕess well and act nice. I will not discount the fact thaT Im a white guy but I have seen white guys get slammed by not acting nice and looking like bums.

 

[Stewartb]

The last time a LEO stopped me he leaned in and asked if I knew why I'd been stopped. I smiled and replied yes. He told me he had clocked me at 55 in a 40 zone and asked how fast I thought I was going. I didn't answer other than to say I liked his number better. I got the ticket and I thought I got off easy.

 

[Anthony]

I have gone to court for almost every ticket I have gotten in the last 40 years. While I have only gotten 1 in the last 10 years there wss a time when I visited the various courthouses on a more frequent basis.

That comes from having a Porsche.

 

[FastEddieB]

The last time a LEO stopped me he leaned in and asked if I knew why I'd been stopped.

As a single data point, at the S FL Police Academy we were trained to never approach a stop like that.

Demand license, registration and proof of insurance, and once those are in hand, clearly state the reason for the stop.

And that works well. Handling it otherwise can turn the stop into a game or a negotiation or both.

Oh, and if he leaned in it was likely to smell for an alcoholic beverage or marijuana.

 

[jesse]

As a single data point, at the S FL Police Academy we were trained to never approach a stop like that.

Demand license, registration and proof of insurance, and once those are in hand, clearly state the reason for the stop.

And that works well. Handling it otherwise can turn the stop into a game or a negotiation or both.

Oh, and if he leaned in it was likely to smell for an alcoholic beverage or marijuana.

Very few approach it that way. Most ask why so that they can get you to admit your guilt OR get you to admit something they didn't even know about.

 

[EdFred]

"Do you know why I stopped you?"

"You saw this sweet-ass car, and just *had* to know who was driving it?"

 

[Stewartb]

As a single data point, at the S FL Police Academy we were trained to never approach a stop like that.

Demand license, registration and proof of insurance, and once those are in hand, clearly state the reason for the stop.

And that works well. Handling it otherwise can turn the stop into a game or a negotiation or both.

Oh, and if he leaned in it was likely to smell for an alcoholic beverage or marijuana.

He leaned in because it was -30 and the wind was blowing. Super Bowl Sunday. I'm sure I interrupted his listening. None the less, I was speeding and I knew it. No reason to fight the truth.

 

[JeffDG]

"Do you know why I stopped you?"

"You saw this sweet-ass car, and just *had* to know who was driving it?"

 

[EdFred]

I actually do the same thing, but I don't expect cops to be smart enough to even know what a hyphen is, let alone move it.

 

[asechrest]

Hah, nice find. I verbalize this all the time to my brother, who has a habit of adding -ass to things.

 

[FastEddieB]

Wow!

That is a sweet-ass trick!

 

[EdFred]

Wow!

That is a sweet-ass trick!

That's what 6PC turns on the weekends.

 

[pmanton]

That comes from having a Porsche.

Back in my Porsche 930 days I got several undeserved tickets. In one case I was cited for 5 over. I told the cop I had seen him 2 miles back and there was no way I was stupid enough to speed with him visible in my mirror. He replied that the traffic around him was driving at the limit and he observed me pass a car. Therefore I was speeding. I would have to take a day off and travel 120 miles to contest it.
I figured that the unjust tickets made up for the times I should have been stopped by a roadblock with drawn shotguns.

Paul
Salome, AZ

 

[N801BH]

Fast Eddie came from down there so he might know this case....

Around 1978 or so, My wife and I were coming home from the races at Hollywood Sportatorium / Speedway.. They had a dozen funny cars ( Coca Cola Cavalcade of stars) and a few jet dragsters and the ex LOVED to watch jetcars....

We are Eastbound on Bird Rd(SW40st) at SW 112 ave at 2 am... Totally sober and driving the speed limit... That intersection has a traffic signal...

So as we approach the light about 50 feet from the intersection, it switches from Green , to Yellow to Red in about 1/2 second.. We look at each other and out of the corner of my eye I see a Dade County Sheriff car sitting next to the traffic control box off in the weeds..... Or course there was NO way I could have stopped...

A couple of blocks further East the cop puts on his lights and pulls us over... Comes up to my truck and says " Drivers license, registration and proof of insurance.... YOU RAN THAT LIGHT ".. I give him the paperwork and he doesn't even walk back to the cruiser to run my tag number, he just writes the ticket in about 20 seconds and has me sign it.. I protested that the signal malfunctioned and he just laughed our faces... Turns out he had the tickets all filled out except for driver information...

So... I was going to fight it and attend court on the date I was given... I show up and there were maybe 20 other people in the court room....Bailiff calls the court to order as the judge sits down.. The cop was sitting in the front row at the table..... This was my first time in traffic court and they schedule all that cops cases for one day each month to make it easier on him...

Mine was the first case called and I get called up to the bench.... I politely explain exactly what happened and the cop is standing next to me and basically calls me a liar... He tells his story to the judge that I blew right through the red light and never attempted to stop..... ..

This is where is gets REAL interesting.... The judge asks the bailiff to read out all the others in room charges.... They ALL were ticketed for running that same light that same night... Hmmmmm.

So, he looks at the time written on my ticket and it says 2:05 AM... The judge asks the cop if that was correct and he quickly says " yes your honor"..... The judge then picks up a ticket off his bench and shows it to the cop and asks him to read the time off of it .. Cop reads it and says 2:12 AM... same date as mine,,, and every other one in the room...

So, the judge motions for the cop to come forward to his bench and got right in his face.... I was standing there trying to figure out what the hell is happening........

Turns out the judge got pulled over right after me that night for the EXACT same charge.. The judge did his homework and found out that cops can /could access the traffic control signal box and hook up a manual , handheld push button that will cause the light to go to " instant red"... About this time the cop is BRIGHT red and knew damn well he was toast...

So, the judge addresses the entire courtroom and dismisses every ones tickets........ Apologizes for the officers actions and asks all of us to leave the courtroom.. All except the cop....... I can only imagine how bad that cop got chewed out,,,,,.

I am also 100% convinced that if the judge had not been pulled over 7 minutes after me for the same reason., he would have found all of us guilty of running a red light........

I lost ALOT of respect for LEO's that night.....

 

[narchee]

There are good LEO's and bad LEO's just like every profession. I believe the good ones outnumber the bad ones significantly but that the bad ones get all the press.

 

[FastEddieB]

Don't recall that.

There are bound to be bad apples. I think most of us were just out there trying to write good tickets.

I always encouraged my trainees to let the little ones go - ties go to the driver.

There are enough good tickets and DUI's out there not to mess with the marginal ones.

Glad it worked out for you.

As an aside, "The Dragstrip" was a prominent VFR landmark headed into Miami from the north, and the adjacent yellow Sportatorium could be seen from many, many miles away. It's all VERY different now.

 

[Everskyward]

While I dislike traffic tickets as much as anyone, I doubt I would contest an infraction of which I was guilty. I imagine many people are like me.

The difference is that Nick didn't think he was guilty. Any speeding ticket I have gotten I knew I was guilty so I paid it. Actually I seem to remember it was automatic plea bargain by mail, also in Douglas County. The thing is that I was doing 50 in a 35, but not more than 6 months later they changed the speed limit in that area to 45. I would still have been speeding but probably would not have been stopped.

 

[N801BH]

....

As an aside, "The Dragstrip" was a prominent VFR landmark headed into Miami from the north, and the adjacent yellow Sportatorium could be seen from many, many miles away. It's all VERY different now.

I have not been back there in 30 years..... In 1973 I was racing in the 125cc amateur motocross class.... The courses were at Amelia Airhart park in North Miami,,, Miami Hollywood speedway park... The track was between the dragstrip and the sportatorium,,, Eddie Graham sports park in East Orlando,Great track too.. Most of the course was outside but it passed indoors for the front and back stretch and the fans sat in stands inside between two big jumps.,,, Gatorback park in Gainesville and the finals were at West Palm Beach speedway / Moroso raceway.... I won the championship that year, beating some young newbie kid named Bob Hanna..

I did go back to Palm Beach raceway last year as the guvs brother ( Brad Mead) was racing his SCCA Mazda car.... Course is all changed but in the back, there is the remains of the MX track with a couple of berms left... I walked across them on the way to the corner where I was timing Brad..... Boy did that bring back some great memories.....

 

[narchee]

As someone who likes driving fast cars I've been pulled over more than my fair share of times. The last time was last weekend and the previous time was maybe three months ago. Both these last two ones I get let off with a warning. The last one on Saturday night was pretty funny. Cool cop pulled me over on late Saturday night for what he said was a 54 in a 30. I thought I had got a bit faster but of course kept my mouth shut about that little fact. What had happened was there was a car that shot by me and cut me off before we got to the next stop light and were obviously goading me so I put on a little display for them and ripped away far ahead when the light turned green. Of course a short while later the flashing lights behind me caught up. The cop was very friendly as was I, he got all my info and so on. I apologized, said I was in the wrong but that it was safe and I was just reacting to another driver. He smiled, went away then came back and told me he had seen what happened and said he understood what I had done being a car guy himself and said he was just going to give me a warning but to "keep my racing on the tollway" (nearby). I'm always friendly, admit fault, joke and make it clear I like cars and I can't help myself sometimes and it somehow seems to work for me in many cases. I have an amusing custom plate that helps bolster that story too Maybe I'm just lucky I've had more good than bad experiences with cops and traffic stops.

 

[strangebird]

I have to wonder if the pilot and or the airplane were not legal to fly , or were operating in a way that is contrary to FAR, would that make a difference?

Long ago had a State police 182 almost hit me in my old Aeronca Champ, while I was doing pattern work, he would swing into the downwind leg on his circuit at pattern altitude going the opposite way so he could stay over the highway and the right seater could do the dirty work.

After the near miss, he then told me to leave the traffic pattern over the radio, and told me that I was in his way in a very not so nice way, he never called his position at anytime , I ignored him and adjusted my circuits so that he could not clock anyone on the highway eventually he left the area and got no speeders, Champ 1, SP 0

 

[jtheune]

That comes from having a Porsche.

Funny thing is I've only gotten one ticket in the boxster and when I went to explain why they dropped the fine and just charged me court costs of 20.00 and one point. most of my interaction with the police were when I was younger and less wise then now

I drive faster now but am more selective in where I ignore speed limits.

 

[Matthew]

I just remembered an article in Soaring Magazine, Oct 2013 issue:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1294231&postcount=71

I found the article on the SSA archive, but can't print it or link to it.

The glider pilot apparently got a Florida HP C182 upset with him. The FHP had been doing traffic timing, checking for speeders, and tried chasing the glider away while waving a gun out the window. The glider pilot said he filled out a NASA form. I just tried to search for any NASA forms filed in Florida with "glider" in the text. There was no date given in the article so I couldn't narrow it down. I found 24 reports, but I didn't see one that matched the story. I'll try again.

 

[nauga]

(assuming a standard rate turn is 3 degrees per second and occurs at 30 degrees of bank, I figure you double that and get 6 degrees per second).

Even if the math's wrong, I doubt it would have been challenged for accuracy.

It's not just wrong, it's not even close. You'd only have dug your hole deeper, especially considering how thorough you said he was about the markings.

Nauga,
and his doghouse plot