Tips for transitioning from Archer to C172?

EpicDraws

EpicDraws

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Derek
Scheduling Archer's at my club is getting to be difficult, yet there are a large amount of available C172s, so I am going to get a 172 checkout as soon as I can.

What are the major differences I should expect? Any common errors to look out for? Any advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks!
 
There are no major differences. You just have to learn a new sight picture for landing.

Seriously, all my time was in Cessnas before I bought my Cherokee.
Going from Cessna to Piper, there are a few things to learn, like boost pump, and change tanks. Going from P to C, there's fewer systems. No pump, no changing tanks.

The only thing you really need to practice is the go-around procedure with electric flaps. It's different than the manual flaps on the Cherokee. Depending on the Skyhawk, some had flap preselect, some have spring loaded switches that you have to hold while the flaps are in transit.

Oh yeah, you also have to use carb heat in a Cessna, and don't slip with flaps :)
 
Should taken an hour or two, normally I don't like suggesting hours because they vary so much between people. But in this case, if you can already fly one, the other won't take long. It'll be like a normal flight lesson, then you're done. There's no major differences other than the view in the pattern, a little different landing flair. The most noticeable differences to me is that Cessna flaps seem to be more effective than piper. The wider piper gear with struts seems more stable, to me anyway.
 
I did the opposite transition. It's not a big deal.

1. Don't touch the fuel selector during flight, except to correct a fuel imbalance (Cessnas don't always suck evenly from both tanks).

2. Use carb heat religiously whenever the tach is out of "green." That will be on every landing and almost every descent.

3. Va is a LOT slower on a 172 than on an Archer. Use the Archer if it's turbulent.

4. You can't see where you're turning! Lift a wing prior to beginning a turn.

5. All the seats (except the front left one) are good for taking photos. Unlike in the Archer, you won't have a wingtip in every photo. But you might have a strut.

6. The flaps are electric and are SLOW. In the event of an electric power failure, you're doing a no-flap landing. They are also barn doors and are much more effective than Archer flaps, and have a very noticeable pitch up, especially for the first 10-20 deg. This means you need more runway than an Archer does for a T&G.

7. Don't try to climb with full flap. Retract them to 20 deg in a go around right away (see the POH).

8. With good approach speed, there will be very little float.
 
EpicDraws said:
What are the major differences I should expect? Any common errors to look out for? Any advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks!
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The first major difference which perhaps you've already noticed is that the wing is on top rather than where it should be. :D This annoying high wing means that climbing is required to perform the simple act of checking fuel. If the 172 is of recent vintage then a checklist is required to sump all of the available drains.

Other folks noted most of the important operation and handling details...I thought that pointing out the obvious may be helpful.

Also, switch the fuel selector off of both when parking the aircraft. It'll prevent fuel loss from the lower tank if the tanks are full.

Oh, about forgot, enter the aircraft through this thing called the pilot's door. Of course it is still possible to enter through the passenger door then slide across normally. Of course such action may confuse the CFI on checkout.
 
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Study the POH carefully and in detail before showing up for your checkout -- lots of system design and operation differences affecting both normal and emergency operation. Other than that it's no big deal.
 
I'm contemplating the opposite and everyone I talk to pretty much says the same. I guess it's one of those things you just have to go out and do to understand.
 
PilotAlan said:
Oh yeah, you also have to use carb heat in a Cessna, and don't slip with flaps :)
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Slipping with flaps in a 172 is something many have debated. Follow the POH/placards. Some say avoid slipping with full flaps and some say with flaps extended.
 
acluffpoa said:
Slipping with flaps in a 172 ... Some say avoid slipping with full flaps and some say with flaps extended.
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It's been a while since I've flown a 172, but is that really true? All the C172's I've ever flown slip just fine, even at the 'dangerous' 40 degree setting.

I learned to fly in a J-3. Slipping is wired into my DNA.
 
acluffpoa said:
I slip mine without issues but that's what the POH says.
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There is supposed to be an oscillation mode with the possibility of abrupt nose pitch down when slipping with flaps in some models of the 172. I never found the behavior in M's and N's. Doesn't mean it won't ever be there since weight was always forward when I was flying.
 
Based on my experience:

- 172S required nose up trim to on final and Archer required some nose down.

- The 172 seems like it will float more if you are carrying excessive speed on final.

- The 172 is little more prone to getting the up wind wing lifted by a cross wind after landing - make sure to get the yoke over and keep it there.

- Learn to enjoy the easy ingress/egress afforded by 2 doors!

- Try not to hit your head during preflight.
 
Clark1961 said:
There is supposed to be an oscillation mode with the possibility of abrupt nose pitch down when slipping with flaps in some models of the 172. I never found the behavior in M's and N's.
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Two different phenomena.

The pitch-down, though "elusive and hard to duplicate," was abrupt when it happened. It was caused by the aiflow off of the upturned aileron of the lower wing hitting the horizontal tail. The increased lateral stability from the larger dorsal fin of the 1972 and later models apparently eliminated it.

The "oscillation" is a benign fore-aft "pumping" that can be felt in the control wheel. It's caused by the turbulent vortex off the outboard edge of the flap hitting the horizontal tail. It's not unique to Cessnas; my Sport Cub does it, too.

Note that the current C-172 TCDS has eliminated the prohibition against slips with flaps. For some reason the placard "Avoid slips with flaps extended" remains, only with regard to the 172F (1965) through serial number 17271034.
 
Beware the wing trailing edges when walking around a 172 or suffer the "Cessna Grin" on your forehead.
 
Both are dead simple to fly and land.

Make a cheat sheet with speeds and rules [like flaps and slips] compare A to B-

A Cherokee 180 has 79 knots of Vy and A Skyhawk is anywhere from 76 to 80 - a Skyhawk will generally land a slower and climb slower.

Don't make it more than it is.

The single most important thing is the fuel systems - and you need to know that backwards and forwards. Amounts, Both vs. L/R only.
 
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DavidWhite said:
Don't overthink it. Remember to change the tanks. Fly airplane. Land airplane.

Easy as pie.
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In a 172?

Only change tanks if you observe an imbalance, and even then, only straight and level.

Do watch for signs of carb ice and use the carb heat for descent and slow flight.
 
Great advice overall! Anyone in the Bay Area want to show me how to fly a C172 before I do a checkout? ;)
 
Sure, but why? Just do the checkout. It will take less time than a "demonstration." It's a lot easier than you think. You still have to read the POH.

You're at West Valley, I presume?

A technique I like to use to learn a new aircraft is to write a checklist for it.
 
MAKG1 said:
Sure, but why? Just do the checkout. It will take less time than a "demonstration." It's a lot easier than you think. You still have to read the POH.

You're at West Valley, I presume?
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Yep. I'll certainly do all that, just thought it might be nice to see things from another perspective.
 
I'm trying to get a 177RG complex checkout this week. If that doesn't work, I'll take a 172 up for some practice. It's at Sundance, and I tend to favor the less-equipped ones (they are cheaper). "Ballast" ought to work, as long as you aren't a huge guy.
 
MAKG1 said:
I'm trying to get a 177RG complex checkout this week. If that doesn't work, I'll take a 172 up for some practice. It's at Sundance, and I tend to favor the less-equipped ones (they are cheaper). "Ballast" ought to work, as long as you aren't a huge guy.
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Definitely let me know via PM if any time will work out! Would love to run through your feedback on my weather app too!
 
EpicDraws said:
Definitely let me know via PM if any time will work out! Would love to run through your feedback on my weather app too!
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I assume your weather app needs an Internet connection to get updates?
 
I see the biggest challenge has been addressed above, but bears repeating ...


DUCK!!!!
 
JOhnH said:
I assume your weather app needs an Internet connection to get updates?
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Yes, although it works offline one you have a report (it keeps it around until it gets a new one). This means you can run all your desired reports before you leave if you won't have a connection, and then it will keep them all available.
 
MAKG1 said:
In a 172?

Only change tanks if you observe an imbalance, and even then, only straight and level.
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I recently asked about this very thing. On a flight I took I noticed a real imbalance between the left and right tank, so much so that the plane was ony taking fuel from the right tank it appeared. I had plenty of fuel to make it back to the home airport but I landed with less than 5 gallons in the right tank and 15+ in the left. I asked after the flight if I should have switched the fuel selector to left rather than both, I was told no because the engine does not care where the fuel comes from as long as it is getting fuel. Other than the obvious weight imbalance should you move the fuel selector valve to correct this?
 
I would do that, just to avoid sucking the tank dry. But, straight and level only. Switch to "both" for descent and landing.

Some 172s seem to do that. In training, I blamed it on flying in a slip, but I've flown several other 172s now, and most of them don't do that.

You have 1.5 gallons unusable. 5 is plenty. Even with one tank completely dry and the other full to the top, the imbalance will not affect your landing significantly. The tanks are located barely outside the doors.
 
acluffpoa said:
Slipping with flaps in a 172 is something many have debated. Follow the POH/placards. Some say avoid slipping with full flaps and some say with flaps extended.
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C-172 N (?) circa mid-70s... the POH expressly states slips with 30 degrees flaps is prohibited. I don't have it in front of me, but I think it can be found in the EMERGENCY section.
 
MAKG1 said:
I did the opposite transition. It's not a big deal.

6. The flaps are electric and are SLOW. In the event of an electric power failure, you're doing a no-flap landing. They are also barn doors and are much more effective than Archer flaps, and have a very noticeable pitch up, especially for the first 10-20 deg. This means you need more runway than an Archer does for a T&G.


If you have electric trim on the yoke, the flap and trim motors run about the same speed. As the flaps are moving you can bump the trim simultaneously.
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john smith said:
C-172 N (?) circa mid-70s... the POH expressly states slips with 30 degrees flaps is prohibited. I don't have it in front of me, but I think it can be found in the EMERGENCY section.
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No, it doesn't. The old owners handbooks did say "prohibited" in early models, but by the early 1970s the caution was relaxed to "avoid", and even that has now been dropped:
1966 C-172G Owner's Manual, page 2-10:
"Slips are prohibited in full flap approaches because of a downward pitch encountered under certain conditions of airspeed and sideslip angle."

1972 C-172L Owner's Manual, page 2-15:
"Slips should be avoided with flap settings greater than 30° due to a downward pitch encountered under certain combinations of airspeed, side slip angle, and center of gravity loadings."

1977 C-172N Pilots Operating Handbook, page 4-19:
"Steep slips should be avoided with flap settings greater than 20° due to a slight tendency for the elevator to oscillate under certain combinations of airspeed, sideslip angle, and center of gravity loadings."

2007 C-172S Pilots Information Manual, page 4-43:
"Steep slips with flap settings greater than 20° can cause a slight tendency for the elevator to oscillate under certain combinations of airspeed, sideslip angle, and center of gravity loadings."
​
As I said in Post #14 above, the "pitch-down" and "oscillation" were two different aerodynamic phenomena. The larger dorsal of the 1972 C-172L apparently solved the "pitch-down" and the remaining "oscillation" is barely noticeable and completely harmless.

Importantly, those old pre-1979 owners handbooks do not have force of law; look to the Type Certificate Data Sheet for the actual, current limitations. The TCDS is revised from time to time, and there is no prohibition against slips with flaps in the current TCDS. The only versions still required to carry an "avoid slips with flaps" placard are the Models 172 through 172F (1956-65).
 
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MAKG1 said:
I would do that, just to avoid sucking the tank dry. But, straight and level only. Switch to "both" for descent and landing.

Some 172s seem to do that. In training, I blamed it on flying in a slip, but I've flown several other 172s now, and most of them don't do that.

You have 1.5 gallons unusable. 5 is plenty. Even with one tank completely dry and the other full to the top, the imbalance will not affect your landing significantly. The tanks are located barely outside the doors.
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Thanks for the tip. It made sense to not change it because it is gravity fead fuel systems in 172's.

I'm not sure if you meant the model 172S in your response or 172's overall but interessting enough the plane I was flying was a 172S model.
 
LOL, where my 'Slips with Flaps' t-shirt...:rofl:

Do what you want, just fly the airplane. While the sight picture may have a new frame around it, it hasn't changed a bit. With electric flaps you have the option to stop anywhere rather than just at the notches for fine tuning approaches for head winds. All in all though, same same, pull back to go up, pull back further to go down, all planes pretty much fly the same. On your check out flight, make sure you spend a good 15 minutes flying around at Minimum Controllable Airspeed with the stall warning on. Play with the throttle, see what you can do playing on the 'back side' of the power curve at low speed.
 
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