tips for 60 degree bank?

WannFly

Final Approach
Joined
Nov 28, 2016
Messages
6,553
Location
KLZU
Display Name

Display name:
Priyo
yes, I am aware I need 45 degree for PPL, but I tried it a few times and thought, well since I can and its within the POH limits...why the heck not

the problem I am facing is maintaining altitude, last time I lost about 300 ft on a right bank and about 700 on the left. TRIM is not going to help (or will it?) because by the time I trim it, its about time to take the trim off and roll out. the G forces are quite a bit more than I am used to, but that's matter of comfort level than anything else.

any pointers?
 
Trim IS going to help. In fact trim is going to make it REALLY easy. Trim AS you're rolling into the turn. It'll take about two full swipes in the trim wheel. Then as you roll out, maintain some down pressure as you roll the trim back out.
 
Smoothly roll in (as you incr bank & pitch), find your visual reference on the horizon (right will be different than left), and trim it there. Don't forget as you start to roll out to push over a bit as you roll the trim out, unless you're going right into the opposite direction.
 
Your load factor increases greatly as well as induced drag. You'll need more power and proper trim and of course more aft elevator to maintain altitude.
 
Since the altitude loss is higher to the left than to the right, I'd say your horizon reference is not directly in front of you where it should be.
 
yeah I have been adding about 200 RPM after 40 degree. I will try the TRIM.. thanks all
 
yeah I have been adding about 200 RPM after 40 degree. I will try the TRIM.. thanks all

Really once you have the proper sight picture on the horizon, power and trim set, you can take your hands off the yoke and go round and round. Try it.
 
Trim IS going to help. In fact trim is going to make it REALLY easy. Trim AS you're rolling into the turn. It'll take about two full swipes in the trim wheel. Then as you roll out, maintain some down pressure as you roll the trim back out.

Yeah, forgot the power. Add power

Yup Yup! And keep the visual of the spinner on the horizon.
 
Add power, roll, pull. Scan your sight picture and VSI/altitude. Make adjustments to the sight picture, don't try to fix it just by pulling harder. If you see that the nose has dropped, reduce AOB, pull the nose back up to the horizon then reintercept your target AOB. Also, I think students struggle more trying to ease into the turn. I teach to make an aggressive roll right to the AOB. By trying to milk it in, students seem to get confused about setting the right amount of pull to maintain altitude.
 
I black out at anything past 45 so I can't help you. Hook! Hook!
 
Check your POH and see what the stall speeds are for 60 degrees bank and keep it in mind
And, also keep in mind that the actual stall speed is a function of how hard you are pulling and not the bank angle. So, if you are a bit overenthusiastic the stall speed will be higher than whatever is in the book, and if you are too wimpy, it will be lower.
 
And, also keep in mind that the actual stall speed is a function of how hard you are pulling and not the bank angle. So, if you are a bit overenthusiastic the stall speed will be higher than whatever is in the book, and if you are too wimpy, it will be lower.
I am in the wimpy camp, that's probably why I am loosing Alt
 
While your at it you should just do a full aileron roll.
 
59 degrees, too little aileron. 61, too much. That's about all I have to contribute.

Done properly, your tub of cole slaw should remain stationary on the dash.
 
59 degrees, too little aileron. 61, too much. That's about all I have to contribute.

Done properly, your tub of cole slaw should remain stationary on the dash.
I heard that Bob Hoover could serve cole slaw while rolling a shrike.
 
Really once you have the proper sight picture on the horizon, power and trim set, you can take your hands off the yoke and go round and round. Try it.

I have done this and it is fun. Last time, I went around two or three times, then one of the wings stalled and I had a little whoop-de-do (my airplane is just a little out of rig -- enough that I have a rudder tab). No big deal, but keep in mind while learning to do this you need to have a little altitude to play with.
 
While your at it you should just do a full aileron roll.

may be later in a acro training so that I know how not to do a aileron roll :p, or come out of it if I get into it.
 
The problem you have is that if you pull back once you're in 60 degrees, it's going to do more to tighten the turn than to gain altitude. Try getting the nose up as you are rolling into the bank (before you get past 45, let's say).
 
I have done this and it is fun. Last time, I went around two or three times, then one of the wings stalled and I had a little whoop-de-do (my airplane is just a little out of rig -- enough that I have a rudder tab). No big deal, but keep in mind while learning to do this you need to have a little altitude to play with.
I would crap if the wing stalls at that bank
 
may be later in a acro training so that I know how not to do a aileron roll :p, or come out of it if I get into it.

Acro training is the best thing I've done for myself...what a blast...it's given me another level of confidence just flying my a Cherokee. This Sunday we're doing inverted flight and slow rolls :D
 
The problem you have is that if you pull back once you're in 60 degrees, it's going to do more to tighten the turn than to gain altitude. Try getting the nose up as you are rolling into the bank (before you get past 45, let's say).
ha, how does that happen . I mean aerodynamically?
 
Acro training is the best thing I've done for myself...what a blast...it's given me another level of confidence just flying my a Cherokee. This Sunday we're doing inverted flight and slow rolls :D

I am not as brave as you ...yet. waiting for a less windy day to get into a spin training, if I survive that.. acro is next on my list ... and o yeah, between all these I should probably also learn how to land safely repeatedly :(:(:(
 
I would crap if the wing stalls at that bank

Do some falling leaf stalls...it's pretty eye opening...in the Great Lakes you can literally drop a wing to 45+ degrees and still use the rudder to get it back to level no problem. I did those last weekend just keeping the stick pulled back and just using the rudders...a few times the wing dropped significantly and I thought for sure we were going into a spin...nope...stomp on the high wing and your good...pretty cool
 
You'd have to be pretty low energy to stall at just 60.
 
I personally do not trim while doing 60° banked turns.

Never saw the need in the classes of planes I've flown.

Though I'm a big fan of trim in most phases of flight, the 60° turns seem too transient to benefit much.

But I'm sure it works well for others.
 
Last edited:
It's all math. It is impossible to hold altitude in a 60° bank unless you're pulling 2 Gs. Add power, trim, but the end result must be 2 Gs.
 
ha, how does that happen . I mean aerodynamically?
The elevator pulls the nose toward the roof, not above the horizon. If you were at 90 deg bank, pulling it would have no effect on altitude, and your rudder would have (almost) all of it.

Even at 45 deg, correcting out of spec low altitude only with elevator will tighten the turn quite a bit and make you pull more G's than you expected. Adding engine power doesn't have the same effect.

For some real fun, try a canyon turn. 10 deg flaps, 80 knots, 60 deg bank, full power, pull the elevator until the stall warning sounds and then hold it on the edge. You'll be turned around 180 deg in a few seconds, even in a 172. Do this at altitude with an instructor the first time.

The speed should be as slow as you can do it safely to reduce the turning radius as far as possible. Remember, the stall speed goes up by sqrt(2) when you are pulling 2 G's.

With too much power, you might gain altitude, but that's a bonus for a canyon turn.

As for trim, CAP requires steep turns around a point for certain airborne photography operations (nadir shots), so I do these fairly often. I find it much easier to add two inches MP (roughly equivalent to 200 RPM on a 172) than to fiddle with trim. They are typically done with 10 flaps at 90 knots. They are always done to the left. I don't think it's possible to the right unless you fly right seat, as you can't see the point you're turning around. At higher altitude, I can do full power slips, if the photographer is OK with that, but I won't do that at 1000 AGL. It makes it a lot easier to aim and gives the photographer a lot more time on and near target. But of course it's way out of coordination. Takes a whole hell of a lot of muscle, too.
 
Last edited:
ha, how does that happen . I mean aerodynamically?

Simple, draw your forces of flight. Increasing lift when more lift is going to turning the aircraft than keeping it aloft (greater than 45 degrees) is going to result in tightening the turn more than increasing altitude. Even with FAA's horrendously incorrect ideas of forces of flight you can see that.
 
Back
Top