Time Logging Question

[giaviv]

hey guys,

i'm working on logging hours toward my instrument rating and i am really confused by the definitions. first of all, other than the FAR, is there a good source that explains the different types of time logging options for a private pilot?

i am required to have 50 hours of cross country as PIC and 40 hours of simulated IFR.
1) is the DUAL time i log with my instructor, considering it is a cross country flight, logged as PIC?
2) in general, once i am a private pilot, how is dual time logged? do i log it as PIC in instrument training, flight reviews, general training and so forth?
3) are there and what are my options of logging PIC time with another pilot to bring the costs of the flight down?

thanks!

 

[JeffDG]

Your dual as a student is not PIC, however your student solo XCs count toward the 50 for IR.

As a PP, so long as you are rated (category and class), and you are the one manipulating the controls, you can log PIC, whether you have an instructor with you or not. This includes any time with your instructor in real instrument conditions, on an IFR flight plan or anything else. (See the Herman interpretation attached). It also includes things like HP and Complex checkouts.

Now, you can split logging of PIC, but you cannot double-log PIC cross country time. This is done with one pilot under the hood, and the other acting as PIC and being safety pilot. The Gebhart interpretation makes it clear you cannot both log cross country for this, however.

 

[Doggtyred]

One clarification. Your 40 hours do not have to be simulated. Once you have the basics down it's perfectly acceptable to get actual IFR experience with your CFII. Late in my training I got some night actual IFR and actual approaches. Got to fly a non precision to real minimums. About 10 hrs was actual IFR.

Another distinction. There is a difference between LOGGING PIC and BEING PIC. Many people can log PIC on a single flight. Only one can BE the PIC for legal and enforcement purposes. There have been many hundreds of posts dedicated to these sorts of questions.

Rest assured your CFII is logging PIC because he IS the PIC in most circumstances in your training.

YOU can LOG PIC as sole manipulator of the controls on the same flight that your CFI/CFII LOGS PIC by virtue of BEING PIC.

Finally, when serving as a safety pilot for someone else's simulated instrument time you can log it as SIC by virtue of being required crewmember. Or if BOTH of you agree, you can BE the PIC and log it as safety pilot while the guy manipulating controls under hood logs PIC as sole manipulator. But if you bust airspace or another rule the one who IS PIC takes the fall.

There's more to be said. I'm sure others will be along to say it.

 

[giaviv]

thank you so much.

now my next question is, in a typical instrument rating training, how many hours of dual cross country do you log? there's that one long flight of 250nm with 3 approaches that will probably be 5 hours of cross country. is there usually more cross country to it? im asking just so i can get an idea whether i need to log all the 50 hours by myself or some can be logged with the instructor.

thank you again!

 

[midlifeflyer]

thank you so much.

now my next question is, in a typical instrument rating training, how many hours of dual cross country do you log? there's that one long flight of 250nm with 3 approaches that will probably be 5 hours of cross country. is there usually more cross country to it? im asking just so i can get an idea whether i need to log all the 50 hours by myself or some can be logged with the instructor.

thank you again!

Really depends on the instructor and what's available for approaches in the area. As a reflection of the practical test itself, instrument training tends to be very approach and hold intensive. If you can do that without going >50 NM, a lot of instructors will simply stay local once the base cross country dual requirement is met.

The better instructors (IMO) will include more cross country flights as a way of getting more en-route training in, preparing you for life rather than the checkride.

And, if you want more of a cross country mix, you can certainly negotiate it with the CFII (at least in the Part 61 environment).

 

[Doggtyred]

One more pearl. Start using flight following now if you don't already. Every flight. The communications are very similar to IFR radio talk. You will get used to how ATC talks, what they want from you, and you get to learn the system. Getting these skills down pat while doing xc time will save you $$ and time down the road when you go to learn instrument flying.

 

[ajstoner21]

I am still working on my instrument training, however, i have majorly cut back due to that cross country time building.

My initial thought was to make every single instrument training flight, a cross country flight. That is, fly VFR rules enroute with a hood (at least, untill i learned IFR rules more clearly), practice approaches and holds 50+ nm away, then fly back. Killing several birds with one stone at once.

The problem was, each "flight" was at least a few hours, and got expensive doing it that way.

Just an option, if you have the time and money...

 

[Henning]

thank you so much.

now my next question is, in a typical instrument rating training, how many hours of dual cross country do you log? there's that one long flight of 250nm with 3 approaches that will probably be 5 hours of cross country. is there usually more cross country to it? im asking just so i can get an idea whether i need to log all the 50 hours by myself or some can be logged with the instructor.

thank you again!

Depends. When I did my IR it was pretty much all cross country after the first flight, so call it 37.5. We shot an approach at every airport in California with an IAP from Sacramento to the Mexican border in that. Did it in a week, lots of different conditions including altitude and actual, lots of different approaches. It was pretty good training.

 

[denverpilot]

Depends. When I did my IR it was pretty much all cross country after the first flight, so call it 37.5. We shot an approach at every airport in California with an IAP from Sacramento to the Mexican border in that. Did it in a week, lots of different conditions including altitude and actual, lots of different approaches. It was pretty good training.

I would love to do a "tour" like that. With the new job, vacation time is ... gone... so right now the Instrument is "on-hold" again. Great new job, just got the usual American "2 weeks" on the vacation clock again. Had 4.6 weeks built up at the last place, and was on the way to 5...

 

[Henning]

I would love to do a "tour" like that. With the new job, vacation time is ... gone... so right now the Instrument is "on-hold" again. Great new job, just got the usual American "2 weeks" on the vacation clock again. Had 4.6 weeks built up at the last place, and was on the way to 5...

Not much of a "tour" when all you see is a panel loaded with sticky notes.

 

[mcarlini]

I'm in the same boat. I haven't officially began Instrument training, but i'm about to go buy a few study materials to start learning, and i'm working on XC time now.

Yesterday I was able to fly with a CFII up and down Oregon while he was purchasing an airplane. Extremely luckily for me, the guy let me fly the whole time and let me take the time for free... he just wanted a flying buddy for the day.

So, I was able to log 4.9 hours of cross country dual AND pic, as mentioned above. We flew IFR in VFR conditions and I flew with my eyes on the instruments, but because I had no view limiting device, I didn't get simulated instrument time, but that was okay-- I still received 4.9 hours of XC for free and have that much more experience with instruments even if it is not on the books.

Icing on the cake? It was in a 172RG so I received complex aircraft time and learned how to fly the thing.

 

[denverpilot]

Not much of a "tour" when all you see is a panel loaded with sticky notes.

Haha... thus the quotation marks. Maybe I should have said, "workout"?

I'd truly love it. I love immersion training and get really bored and my schedule beats the crap out of attempts at "traditional" flight instruction. Beat me up for days, I'm cool with that. No chance that's happening this year, though.

What I really need is a CFII who likes flying as things start to get dark, and could do ground-school "backward" to some extent... fly first, land, go talk about it as the sun sets.

By far, the most open part of my schedule is 6PM-Midnight daily. "Early-birds" need not apply. I'm a night-owl. I'm totally worthless in the morning, and hate the "dawn patrol" with a passion I can't describe.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Rest assured your CFII is logging PIC because he IS the PIC in most circumstances in your training.

YOU can LOG PIC as sole manipulator of the controls on the same flight that your CFI/CFII LOGS PIC by virtue of BEING PIC.

Point of clarification: The CFI gets to log PIC by virtue of giving instruction, not by virtue of acting as pilot in command. The requirements of 61.51(e)(1)(iii) are not being met for that portion of the flight when the trainee is not under the hood (Taxi, takeoff, and the last bit before landing) but I'll bet the CFII is logging PIC for the *entire* flight and can do so under 61.51(e)(3).

A safety pilot who isn't a CFII can't log under 61.51(e)(3), so they'll instead log the portion of the flight where the PF is under the hood as PIC under 61.51(e)(1)(iii) since that portion of the flight requires two crewmembers under 91.109(b)(1).

61.51(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or

(3) A certificated flight instructor may log pilot in command flight time for all flight time while serving as the authorized instructor in an operation if the instructor is rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft.

91.109(b) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless—

(1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown.

 

[dparter]

I'm in the same boat. I haven't officially began Instrument training, but i'm about to go buy a few study materials to start learning, and i'm working on XC time now.

...

So, I was able to log 4.9 hours of cross country dual AND pic, as mentioned above. We flew IFR in VFR conditions and I flew with my eyes on the instruments, but because I had no view limiting device, I didn't get simulated instrument time, but that was okay-- I still received 4.9 hours of XC for free and have that much more experience with instruments even if it is not on the books.

Icing on the cake? It was in a 172RG so I received complex aircraft time and learned how to fly the thing.

Don't worry about the instrument time, you will get plenty of that in your training.

If you don't have the 50 hours of XC time, I assume you don't have a ton of hours overall (but I could be wrong).

Just fly. Don't worry about instruments, just fly, with flight following (for the radio work), and get even more comfortable with the plane you fly, work on improving all your current skills (altitude control, heading, power settings) and improving your radio skills. Visit a bunch of airports you haven't been too before, in different (VFR) conditions. Get the experience. It is what the 50 hours XC requirement is about.

--david

 

[mcarlini]

Don't worry about the instrument time, you will get plenty of that in your training.

If you don't have the 50 hours of XC time, I assume you don't have a ton of hours overall (but I could be wrong).

Just fly. Don't worry about instruments, just fly, with flight following (for the radio work), and get even more comfortable with the plane you fly, work on improving all your current skills (altitude control, heading, power settings) and improving your radio skills. Visit a bunch of airports you haven't been too before, in different (VFR) conditions. Get the experience. It is what the 50 hours XC requirement is about.

--david

Just under 60 hours TT, so yes you are correct

Thanks for the advice. That is what I plan to do this summer-- build XC hours

 

[jason]

Haha... thus the quotation marks. Maybe I should have said, "workout"?

I'd truly love it. I love immersion training and get really bored and my schedule beats the crap out of attempts at "traditional" flight instruction. Beat me up for days, I'm cool with that. No chance that's happening this year, though.

What I really need is a CFII who likes flying as things start to get dark, and could do ground-school "backward" to some extent... fly first, land, go talk about it as the sun sets.

By far, the most open part of my schedule is 6PM-Midnight daily. "Early-birds" need not apply. I'm a night-owl. I'm totally worthless in the morning, and hate the "dawn patrol" with a passion I can't describe.

I just checked. Over half of my instrument training over the last 3+ months has been at night. With a wife and two kids under 3 years old, it's the least disruptive time for our family. Hell, I've had a couple of flights that didn't finish up until 1-2 am. No reason you can't train at night.

 

[denverpilot]

I just checked. Over half of my instrument training over the last 3+ months has been at night. With a wife and two kids under 3 years old, it's the least disruptive time for our family. Hell, I've had a couple of flights that didn't finish up until 1-2 am. No reason you can't train at night.

Heh... other than finding a CFII who'll do it.

 

[jesse]

Heh... other than finding a CFII who'll do it.

*raises hand*

 

[denverpilot]

*raises hand*

I hear ya, Jesse. I wish you were closer.

I suppose a cross-country to Nebraska for every lesson would be a tiny bit insane, eh?

 

[Palmpilot]

I did a lot of my instrument training at night, with the result that I don't share some people's phobia of night IFR.

I'm much more concerned about night VFR. That's how my ex-wife's uncle smacked into Mount Tam late one night.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I hear ya, Jesse. I wish you were closer.

I suppose a cross-country to Nebraska for every lesson would be a tiny bit insane, eh?

Nate, my problem would be scheduling and, of course, the late afternoon thunderstorms. But having done my own instrument training at night I know how valuable it is and if you want to talk about it...

 

[jesse]

I suppose a cross-country to Nebraska for every lesson would be a tiny bit insane, eh?

Nah. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Better yet would be for you to pay for me to fly to Colorado for every lesson.

 

[EdFred]

I did almost all my instrument training at night. Much more like flying in actual IMC than during the day. Especially in sparse areas.

 

[MBDiagMan]

Sorry for ressurrecting this thread, but it seemed better than starting a new one on the same or similar subject.

During my Private checkride two weeks ago, the DPE pointed out that I need to log solo time AND PIC time. I have a blank column in my logbook right next to PIC.

My question is; going forward is solo time required to be ONLY myself in the plane? What if I have a passenger? What if the passenger is also a certificated Private Pilot?

Thanks for your responses.

 

[midlifeflyer]

My question is; going forward is solo time required to be ONLY myself in the plane? What if I have a passenger? What if the passenger is also a certificated Private Pilot?

Thanks for your responses.

Like all answers to time logging questions, this one is also very specifically explained in 61.51.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

Solo time is only logged when you are the sole occupant of the aircraft.

PIC time is logged when you are the sole manipulator of the controls in an aircraft for which you are rated (including solo) and when acting as pilot in command of an aircraft requiring more than one pilot. When flying solo, you also log PiC. See 14 CFR 61.51.

 

[MBDiagMan]

Solo time is only logged when you are the sole occupant of the aircraft.

PIC time is logged when you are the sole manipulator of the controls in an aircraft for which you are rated (including solo) and when acting as pilot in command of an aircraft requiring more than one pilot. When flying solo, you also log PiC. See 14 CFR 61.51.

Jason,

Thanks for the good explanation and also for pointing toward the applicable FAR. I didn't know where to start in the FAR/AIM to find it.

 

[poadeleted20]

To elucidate on what it says in 61.51, you must be the sole, living, human occupant to log solo. Corpses and dogs are OK, babies are not, and please, don't nobody start talking about fetuses vs "unborn children.". As far as the FAA is concerned, if you're pregnant, you're solo -- at least until you have a surprise inflight delivery.

 

[Mattl]

To elucidate on what it says in 61.51, you must be the sole, living, human occupant to log solo. Corpses and dogs are OK, babies are not, and please, don't nobody start talking about fetuses vs "unborn children.". As far as the FAA is concerned, if you're pregnant, you're solo -- at least until you have a surprise inflight delivery.

So I've looked, and other than the requirements for private pilot, what value does logging "solo" have other than personal records. PIC time with a non-rated passenger isn't much different...... Please correct me!!!!!

 

[JeffDG]

So I've looked, and other than the requirements for private pilot, what value does logging "solo" have other than personal records. PIC time with a non-rated passenger isn't much different...... Please correct me!!!!!

Can't remember if it's Commercial or ATP, but there's a requirement for a long-solo XC...might even be night...I'm kinda fuzzy on it.

Otherwise, no real value, except when you're not current. If you go up for a night-currency flight, I would log solo, just to show that you had no passengers when you were not current to have passengers.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

So I've looked, and other than the requirements for private pilot, what value does logging "solo" have other than personal records. PIC time with a non-rated passenger isn't much different...... Please correct me!!!!!

There are certain aeronautical experience requirements that require solo time (see FAR part 61), for example private pilot aeronautical experience requires a minimum of 10 hours solo.

 

[Mattl]

Can't remember if it's Commercial or ATP, but there's a requirement for a long-solo XC...might even be night...I'm kinda fuzzy on it.

Otherwise, no real value, except when you're not current. If you go up for a night-currency flight, I would log solo, just to show that you had no passengers when you were not current to have passengers.

I was actually temped to go and get night current tonight- (1 days not current by one landing ) I'd enter that as a "solo night currency" flight.... I looked at the commercial rating experience and don't think I missed it, but there is a long xc requirement, but it does not stipulate "solo".

I've got one of those old school Cessna flight school paper logbooks that has solo/pic as one column. Should I add a "solo" column in one of the blank fields and go back and calculate it out? I guess with out seeing experience requirement after the pp check ride, I not clear on the value. Thus my question.

 

[ajstoner21]

I was actually temped to go and get night current tonight- (1 days not current by one landing ) I'd enter that as a "solo night currency" flight.... I looked at the commercial rating experience and don't think I missed it, but there is a long xc requirement, but it does not stipulate "solo".

I've got one of those old school Cessna flight school paper logbooks that has solo/pic as one column. Should I add a "solo" column in one of the blank fields and go back and calculate it out? I guess with out seeing experience requirement after the pp check ride, I not clear on the value. Thus my question.

Dont forget take offs count too.

 

[nosehair]

I looked at the commercial rating experience and don't think I missed it, but there is a long xc requirement, but it does not stipulate "solo".

61.129(a)(4) 10 hours solo, or performing PIC with an instructor, including-
(1) The long x/c

So, this x/c would have to be logged "solo", or PIC and dual with an instructor's signature. Couldn't just be PIC only.

 

[poadeleted20]

So I've looked, and other than the requirements for private pilot, what value does logging "solo" have other than personal records. PIC time with a non-rated passenger isn't much different...... Please correct me!!!!!

Commercial Pilot requires a certain amount of solo time. For example, for CP-ASEL:

(4) Ten hours of solo flight time in a single engine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a single engine airplane with an authorized instructor on board (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement under paragraph (a)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed under Sec. 61.127(b)(1) that include--

(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and (ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

All that has to be either solo, or "simulated solo" with an instructor (the latter added to deal with situations where the flight school's insurance or the like prohibits student solos in that airplane). And to properly record it, the instructor signing the entry for a "simulated solo" should note that fact specifically.

 

[Mattl]

Commercial Pilot requires a certain amount of solo time. For example, for CP-ASEL:
All that has to be either solo, or "simulated solo" with an instructor (the latter added to deal with situations where the flight school's insurance or the like prohibits student solos in that airplane). And to properly record it, the instructor signing the entry for a "simulated solo" should note that fact specifically.

Again, thanks Ron!