Thoughts on the multi

spiderweb

spiderweb

Final Approach
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Ben
Now that I have the IR, the next thing (and probably last thing for a while) I'd like to do is to get the multi. What immediately comes to mind is continuing to work with my most excellent CFI. Based at BWI, we have a Seneca II that rents for only $220 an hour (so-so interior, but who cares?), an Aztruck that rents for I don't know how much, and a C310 (520 hp only) that rents for $300. The problem with all three is that I can't fly solo in any of them until I get the magic 50 in make and model.

Frederick has two Seminoles. They can get me rated in 10-20 hours. (Knowing me, it will be 30 hours!) In any event, you can rent once you have the rating. The problem here is that the main reason I'd go for the multi aside from the obvious safety benefits is that I want six seats. Or, rather I really want four seats and room for a cello, violin, and some bags. From experience, the Seneca and C310 can do this, even without the seats removed. I don't know how the Seminole would handle it.

Why does no one rent Staionairs and Saratogas?! (The 'Toga I fly is a club plane, I fly it with a member, and I can't afford to join!)
 
wangmyers said:
Why does no one rent Staionairs and Saratogas?!
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Because there aren't enough cellists in the world? LOL. :D

(and probably too many insurance actuaries to make renting saratogas and stationairs a non-profitable business).


-Rich
 
That's the rating I hope to add next year to my Commercial ticket for nearly the same reason. Just exchange the strings for scuba gear. :)
 
wangmyers said:
Why does no one rent Staionairs and Saratogas?!
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I wouldn't say no one but in my experience it is pretty rare to see six seat aircraft on the rental line.

Initial purchase price makes for poor return on investment as the aircraft would have to have a high rental rate. High rental rate plus insurance requirements of at least several hours of dual for renter would make for very few rental hours.

On the flip side, the money spent on a Saratoga could be used to buy a few very nice four seat 180ish HP aircraft.

Len
 
Ben,

What is the down time for maintenance on the Seneca II?

I don't know how well the other two aircraft are suited for a training environment but a Seneca II is not really well suited to that purpose. A fun plane to fly and from the student's perspective a good learning experience but I'd bet that the aircraft spends a lot of time in the shop. If that is the case, it could extend the duration of your training.

I started getting my multi in a Seneca II and ended up finishing in a Seminole. It felt like the Seneca was in the shop every other week for cylinders (note that it was the other students who were turning on the overboost light - not me).

Len
 
Ben:
My A-36 would hold four and all the stuff you could get in it. With the IO-550 and turbo, Gami had an STC rasing gross weight to 4,000 pounds. I can look if you want, but I'm pretty sure that left 1,000 pounds with full fuel--maybe not full tips. The Osborne tips also gave a gross weight increase. So, there could be a fast, useful single out there for you.

I can get the numbers on the Barons is you decide to look into them. The A and B 55 model wouldn't do what you seem to want. Really four seats and some baggage, but when I put that much in them, performance and handling was poor and range wasn't what I wanted. The C, D and E model of 55 have the longer nose compartment and a larger tail. The 58 Baron would do what you're asking. Of course, that's what I'm flying in the pressurized model. Very difficult to find these for rent. Some 55s, haven't seen a 58.

Let me know when you'll be down and you can fly in the 58 with me.

Best,

Dave
 
Seminole is NOT the answer. It will truly fly you to the scene of the crash. 100F, 200 undergross, might hold altitude say at 3000 feet (Dalt=5000). OK for getting the rating, but as to getting 50 in type---- i'd rather do it in what I'm going to be flying....less $$s total.
 
wangmyers said:
Why does no one rent Staionairs and Saratogas?! (The 'Toga I fly is a club plane, I fly it with a member, and I can't afford to join!)
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Ben,

What is the cost of joining the Saratoga club?

How does it compare to the cost of getting your multi?

Len
 
Flame me, gang, at will, but I think an outstanding choice (to train in and to own, if the right candidate is found) would be the Aztec. From what I know (admittedly, lean), the Aztecs are robustly built, relatively capable performers and are supposed to be very good flying birds. I believe that they have good payload handling ability.

Am I wrong?
 
Not a twin driver but have flown right seat in them a lot! A few things:

1) The FBO where I rent won't let you train in the Seneca II b/c they are afraid you are going to do something awful to the turbo chargers. You can fly it once you have the rating and then get checked out in it. Check to see if your FBO has the same policy.

2)Seminoles are basically Archers with two engines. Four Adults is really pushing it. You would have to certainly off load fuel but then again you have that zero fuel weight thing to deal with.

3) I would love to fly a twin but the fact of the matter is if I can't afford to stay current what use is it. Hopefully one day I will be able to afford to.

4) Bruce, I recall reading just the opposite about the Seminole. I think it may even have been in AOPA pilot but not sure. The write up said what a great docile twin trainer it was and how well it flew on one engine. I'll try to find the article.
 
SCCutler said:
Am I wrong?
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Spike,

I don't think you are wrong but I could be wrong. :<)

I think asking prices on Aztecs are looking particularly attractive of late. There are several in the $90K to $110K range in TaP currently. I don't think Aztecs are the cheapest aircraft to operate but they have a lot of positive features. I don't think normally aspirated versions are as fast as Seneca II's. From my way of thinking, the club seating available in the Seneca is a real nice to have feature.

I don't know if a cello will fit through the cabin door and into the rear seating area. I don't know if a cello will fit in the baggage compartment or even if it would if Ben would like his cello flying around in the baggage compartment.

Len
 
AdamZ said:
4) Bruce, I recall reading just the opposite about the Seminole. I think it may even have been in AOPA pilot but not sure. The write up said what a great docile twin trainer it was and how well it flew on one engine. I'll try to find the article.
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On a Standard day, at 400 below gross, it will climb 250 fpm on one blower. Maybe 300. But on a 100 F day, fuggedabout it. AOPA did their write up in the cool.

Now, if you take the useful load from 1100 and allow for 19 gallons per hour, 400 below gross for five hours at 19=565 pounds. 400 below gross, means 965 has been consumed. OK if you weigh 135 pounds and carry no baggage.

Now, do the same off of 1500 useful load, with 4:30 hours of fuel at 21 gph total (Seneca goes 160 kts, Seminole 145). Thats 565 pounds of fuel. 400 below, you have 535 left. You can take someone somewhere. And the turbos mean you are really developing full rated hp per side.

Turbo seminole- the gross weight was increased, so the climb is even more pathetic.

Upshot: needs more hp, therefore needs more tail, therefore needs new airframe therefore- Seneca.

Ed Fred was just treated to the PA34 SE climb demo at 95 degrees F. Two aboard, 5 hrs' fuel (500 undergross) and it was making just about 450 fpm. Not a lot to spare.

So, Seminole will do OK cross country with one up and luggage on 500 nm legs. Just not what most pilots do. They load it up to gross, and fly to the scene of the accident. It's a risk taking strategy. WHY am I paying in many ways for the "advantages" of a twin? For me, it's to able to fly away on one, not to have two chances to smack it in, at trip lengths and loads that I will likely use.
 
I don't think that there would be that problem with this Seneca because it is privately owned and only flown by four or five pilots. But then again, I don't really know!
Len Lanetti said:
Ben,

What is the down time for maintenance on the Seneca II?

I don't know how well the other two aircraft are suited for a training environment but a Seneca II is not really well suited to that purpose. A fun plane to fly and from the student's perspective a good learning experience but I'd bet that the aircraft spends a lot of time in the shop. If that is the case, it could extend the duration of your training.

I started getting my multi in a Seneca II and ended up finishing in a Seminole. It felt like the Seneca was in the shop every other week for cylinders (note that it was the other students who were turning on the overboost light - not me).

Len
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Thanks for all of the information, and this is what I was waiting to hear:
Dave Siciliano said:
Let me know when you'll be down and you can fly in the 58 with me.

Best,

Dave
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:goofy:
 
Len Lanetti said:
Ben,

What is the cost of joining the Saratoga club?

How does it compare to the cost of getting your multi?

Len
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OK, I think that you buy in for $5,000. I don't know what the monthly fee is. The rental is $125 dry which will equate to about $175, wet, per hour around these parts.

The hard part is that initial $5k buy in. A coupld of months ago I took out a one-year loan for $5k to finish the IFR. (I did finish $1k under, though.)
 
Len Lanetti said:
I don't know if a cello will fit through the cabin door and into the rear seating area. I don't know if a cello will fit in the baggage compartment or even if it would if Ben would like his cello flying around in the baggage compartment.

Len
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Do you mean the Seneca? It will easily fit in those doors. It will fit in the back with two others a little put out by its bulk, but if I take out the #5 and #6 seats, I can seat four persons very comfortably along with bags and the cello. I don't know about the Aztec.
 
bbchien said:
Upshot: needs more hp, therefore needs more tail, therefore needs new airframe therefore- Seneca.
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That's what my impression was.
 
Len Lanetti said:
I don't know if a cello will fit through the cabin door and into the rear seating area. I don't know if a cello will fit in the baggage compartment or even if it would if Ben would like his cello flying around in the baggage compartment.Len
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It'll fit a string bass easily where the nos 5&6 go, and the door is four feet wide. :)
 
wangmyers said:
OK, I think that you buy in for $5,000. I don't know what the monthly fee is. The rental is $125 dry which will equate to about $175, wet, per hour around these parts.

The hard part is that initial $5k buy in. A coupld of months ago I took out a one-year loan for $5k to finish the IFR. (I did finish $1k under, though.)
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OUCH!!! That sounds like a share purchase . Saratogas rent for less than that here in Philly Wet!
 
AdamZ said:
OUCH!!! That sounds like a share purchase . Saratogas rent for less than that here in Philly Wet!
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Basically correct--it is a club plane. It is a super sweet bird, but I'd have to join the club.
 
wangmyers said:
That's what my impression was.
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Ben, I must note that you buy into Dr. C's logic requiring fly away after an engine failure, and then you compare Seneca versus Seminole options versus a Saratoga that will never fly away after an engine failure--ever. Not too consistent logic, if you don't mind my saying so.

As I quipped back to Bruce C's previous post, it all depends on the question. If you are purchasing two engines because you have Dr. C's safety requirements that is a well and good, but then no single falls within the consideration table. OTOH, if you by a twin because it can haul the load you need, then a Seminole is as good as a Saratoga (with some slight differences). In the later case Dr. C's 400# below gross requirement becomes irrelevant.

Pick the reasons, then pick the aircraft, but don't mix requirements while comparing aircraft--it makes the discussion scream of illogic.
 
Right, I see what you're saying. I guess it is just that I won't be able to buy for many years, so I'm really talking about renting availability. Hmmm. OK, to organize my muddled thoughts, then: If I can get my multi rating and I can find a place or person that will rent me one, then it looks like it would have to be the C310 or Seneca; if I can't find a place to rent me a multi, I would probably need a Saratoga or C206. So I guess I'm saying that (for concerts, anyway), the first priority is going to be the six seats; after that, if I have a multi rating and a plane to rent, the two engines would be even better.

Ed Guthrie said:
Ben, I must note that you buy into Dr. C's logic requiring fly away after an engine failure, and then you compare Seneca versus Seminole options versus a Saratoga that will never fly away after an engine failure--ever. Not too consistent logic, if you don't mind my saying so.

As I quipped back to Bruce C's previous post, it all depends on the question. If you are purchasing two engines because you have Dr. C's safety requirements that is a well and good, but then no single falls within the consideration table. OTOH, if you by a twin because it can haul the load you need, then a Seminole is as good as a Saratoga (with some slight differences). In the later case Dr. C's 400# below gross requirement becomes irrelevant.

Pick the reasons, then pick the aircraft, but don't mix requirements while comparing aircraft--it makes the discussion scream of illogic.
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wangmyers said:
if I can't find a place to rent me a multi, I would probably need a Saratoga or C206.
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Perhaps slightly more convenient than the West Coast. A Turbo 206 for rent in North Carolina for $120 dual and $149 solo. So yes they are out there.

http://www.flightgest.com
 
FDK used to have one. . . .

EDIT: I meant the C206.
 
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larrysb said:
How about the 337 Skymaster on OEI operations? The Riley conversions add beefier engines, probably do a lot better on one engine than the stock version.
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My officemate loves the Skymaster. Looks like a neat plane to me.
 
larrysb said:
How about the 337 Skymaster on OEI operations? The Riley conversions add beefier engines, probably do a lot better on one engine than the stock version.
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I hear those are challenged in the interior dimensions department (i.e. probably no room for Ben's cello). That's what happens when you have no low wing in which to hide the gear and various plumbing....


-Rich
 
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