This is what I'm bringing my son into...

[RJM62]

that's a bit too far. being successful at business does not translate to being able to teach. In the same way that many of the best flight instructors are mediocre-at-best stick&rudder pilots themselves, and vice-versa.

Obviously, it depends on the subject and situation to some extent. Not all phys ed teachers need to have been professional athletes, for example.

On the whole, however, I tend to agree with Jesse. The best teachers I had in high school were: (1) the shop teachers, most of whom had been certified based on their experience in the trade and had never attended college; (2) my sophomore math teacher, who was a retired engineer in his 70's; and (3) my senior-year American Studies teacher, who was a retired attorney with a rich knowledge of our Constitution.

Another thing that most of these teachers had in common was that they didn't need the jobs. Most of the shop teachers were retired military and were collecting pensions, and both the math and American studies teachers were retired from the first careers. (Just as an aside, the American studies teacher had been paralyzed from the waist down in a truck vs. bicycle accident, and he taught from a wheelchair.)

In short, these teachers taught mainly because they loved teaching, and because they loved us. That may sound mushy and nauseating, but they made no secret of their fondness and concern for us.

Both the math teacher and the American studies teacher, as well as most of the shop teachers, were old enough to be our grandfathers, and they treated us that way. They did things like taking us fishing, consoling us through rough patches (romantic breakups, family problems, etc.), lending us money for lunch if we ran short, telling us the occasional dirty joke, etc. But they also were a gruff bunch, many of whom wouldn't hesitate to apply a slap upside the head when we really, truly needed one.

It's only now, many years later, that I realize how important connecting to those teachers was to my learning. I still remember almost all of their names, what classes they taught, and even what jokes they told. But more importantly, I still remember by heart things they taught me that I haven't had occasion to use since then.

On the other hand, I'd be hard-pressed to name half a dozen out of all of my college and grad school professors combined; and there are courses on my college transcripts that I barely remember taking, so little impression did the courses (or the professors who taught them) make on me.

-Rich

 

[denverpilot]

You honestly think a local newspaper would print a letter to the editor stating with "**** CNS should cut?" a perfect example of what I mentioned before, disrespect is not discourse.

If this child were serious about his opinions, there's an appropriate time, place and manner. My guess after reading the piece is the suspension was less about content than it was about place and manner.

And CNN throwing gas on the spark.

The kid is using an Internet meme. You ascribe too much to it. Google "**** my dad says". Was even a short-lived TV series with Shatner as the lead character.

And I've heard far worse than that phrase at official City Counsel meetings.

What appropriate "time and place" would you recommend he have utilized? A School Board meeting?! Heard worse than that in videos of those, too. I rarely attend those. No anklebiters here to protect from the idiot administrators.

The suspension is about the powerful getting caught wasting money. The inmates in the asylum aren't supposed to tell anyone or they get the hose.

 

[denverpilot]

You wouldn't take it personally if I publicly suggested you should be fired for incompetence? OK.

Absolutely. A leader would use that as personal motivation to fix it.

Not whine that people actually do see their bad performance in the public leadership role they chose to accept responsibility for.

 

[SkyHog]

You wouldn't take it personally if I publicly suggested you should be fired for incompetence? OK.

Take it personally? Perhaps, but a leader should not bra affected by that.

Regardless, its not an attack when its verifiable and doesn't involve a threat.

 

[Florida Cracker]

You wouldn't take it personally if I publicly suggested you should be fired for incompetence? OK.

The taking of criticism is part of working for the taxpayers. If this wuss can't handle the truth, there are lots of pathetic little jobs, for pathetic, little, egomaniacs that can use a another worthless idiot.

 

[jesse]

You wouldn't take it personally if I publicly suggested you should be fired for incompetence? OK.

Wouldn't bother me one bit. If you can't handle criticism you shouldn't be a leader.

 

[cowman]

I think the main problem with schools right now is that too many groups think they know what is best for every kid and keep meddling with the system.

Just do a really good job of teaching them fundamental skills in reading, writing, and arithmetic. Then give them the freedom to explore things so they can figure out what they want to do as adults and start learning about it.

Most of my knowledge came from me taking an interest in a subject and learning about it myself, not from having it force-fed in a classroom.

 

[wsuffa]

Ya know, each and every one of us could, if we chose to, give something back to the educational system. Everything from mentoring to tutoring to "career day" to whatever.

Personally, I mentor business students at a local university. It's fulfilling to me, and it helps the students. I've worked with local high school students. The university I work with has a program where folks like me can mentor high school students in area schools, including less privileged areas (That requires more of a time commitment than I can make right now, but if my schedule frees up, I'd do it in a New York Minute).

Beats the heck out of just sitting around complaining about the educational system.

 

[docmirror]

His only mistake was using the phone in school to create whatever he wanted to say about the admin. Was the punishment a little harsh? Yep, but within discretion of the admin.

I wouldn't have suspended him, but I would have given him detention with some of those natural logarithm calcs, or make him read Homer, or maybe figure out the best way to budget for the extra-curricular activities. But - that's me, and not the admin.

Yes, the school systems are bloated. It's what you get when you have a union with no oversight. We are spending way more per student than 20 years ago, and we are getting far less than we used to get. That's unionization, and there is a solution.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

The suspension is about the powerful getting caught wasting money. The inmates in the asylum aren't supposed to tell anyone or they get the hose.

To use the kid's own words:

"Everyone on Twitter was talking about 'I can't believe the budget didn't pass' and so I created (the hashtag) as a joke, really," Brown told CNN on Friday.
At first, according to Brown, his ideas for cutting the school budget were meant to be funny and absurd. They included cutting the lights because if teachers weren't being paid, students would have no schoolwork they'd have to see. He also suggested holding classes outside to save on air conditioning costs.

This wasn't any sort of serious attempt at anything. It was a class clown trying to get attention by throwing disrespectful rhetorical rocks, and by the articles implication, using his cell phone in class to do it. It doesn't state anywhere in the article tthis was done outside of school, on his own time.

The right time and place? How about writing a serious criticism, and bringing it to the PTA, or the candidates in the next election, or his state legislature, or actually organizing a serious student demonstration. You know, something positive.

Nah, that would take too much work, thought and cut into video game time.

 

[Florida Cracker]

To use the kid's own words:

"Everyone on Twitter was talking about 'I can't believe the budget didn't pass' and so I created (the hashtag) as a joke, really," Brown told CNN on Friday.
At first, according to Brown, his ideas for cutting the school budget were meant to be funny and absurd. They included cutting the lights because if teachers weren't being paid, students would have no schoolwork they'd have to see. He also suggested holding classes outside to save on air conditioning costs.

This wasn't any sort of serious attempt at anything. It was a class clown trying to get attention by throwing disrespectful rhetorical rocks, and by the articles implication, using his cell phone in class to do it. It doesn't state anywhere in the article tthis was done outside of school, on his own time.

The right time and place? How about writing a serious criticism, and bringing it to the PTA, or the candidates in the next election, or his state legislature, or actually organizing a serious student demonstration. You know, something positive.

Nah, that would take too much work, thought and cut into video game time.

But the azzhat school administratin chose to attack a kid because he raised an uncomfortable subject THEY THINK no one but them had any right to an opinion about. The they chose to punish him to suppress free thought and instill fear of how the little hitlerites will punish unapproved opinions.

Such a great training moment for A lifetime of government servitude.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

I disagree. I think the child's being punished for wising off in class, but rather than doing it orally, he used his cell phone, which he knew was prohibited.

 

[denverpilot]

Nah, that would take too much work, thought and cut into video game time.

Well, yeah. He's 14. Right?

Realistically, adults (and especially adult school administrators) only pay attention to 14 year olds (or actually, an anonymous poster, who they felt heavily compelled to find out who it was, if you think about it) blathering on the Internet about their failed budgets, when they touch a sore/true spot.

That or the adults aren't quite adults yet and are so self-absorbed they get their feelings hurt over criticism by anonymous posters on the Internet.

Even better, they're so immature, once they found it was a student, and not another adult posting on the Net (over whom they'd have zero power), they retaliated. I understand he says he used the phone in the school, but talking to a couple of teachers this weekend to see how strict those rules are nowadays, and how they felt about that, they said the punishment didn't fit the crime on that one.

Nobody gets suspended for that for three days around here. Ever. Not until they're an awful repeat offender, and certainly not before warning their parents about the phone use.

 

[steingar]

So last night I had dinner with an elementary school teacher. She related how parents blamed her that their children got bad grades, despite the lack of any visible initiative on the parts of either the children or the parents. The best was when she said they had to remove every trace of latex from the school because an incoming student had an allergy.

I see it all the time. These students who have been told they're special their whole lives come to university and find out the truth. Thank Odin I don't have parents screaming in my ear.

 

[bluee]

So last night I had dinner with an elementary school teacher. She related how parents blamed her that their children got bad grades, despite the lack of any visible initiative on the parts of either the children or the parents. The best was when she said they had to remove every trace of latex from the school because an incoming student had an allergy.

I see it all the time. These students who have been told they're special their whole lives come to university and find out the truth. Thank Odin I don't have parents screaming in my ear.

Just wondering, where did all these allergies come from? I'm not that old, but I don't remember anyone having peanut allergies or any other allergies when I was growing up. Now I keep reading about all these kids having life-threatening allergies.

 

[steingar]

Just wondering, where did all these allergies come from? I'm not that old, but I don't remember anyone having peanut allergies or any other allergies when I was growing up. Now I keep reading about all these kids having life-threatening allergies.

I remember kids sniffling and sometimes red-faced in school. They just went along with it and kept going. Nowadays everyone has to have a diagnosis for everything. And the docs will cooperate, why not? So every kid has an allergy, or ADD, or something.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

Well, yeah. He's 14. Right?

Realistically, adults (and especially adult school administrators) only pay attention to 14 year olds (or actually, an anonymous poster, who they felt heavily compelled to find out who it was, if you think about it) blathering on the Internet about their failed budgets, when they touch a sore/true spot.

That or the adults aren't quite adults yet and are so self-absorbed they get their feelings hurt over criticism by anonymous posters on the Internet.

Even better, they're so immature, once they found it was a student, and not another adult posting on the Net (over whom they'd have zero power), they retaliated. I understand he says he used the phone in the school, but talking to a couple of teachers this weekend to see how strict those rules are nowadays, and how they felt about that, they said the punishment didn't fit the crime on that one.

Nobody gets suspended for that for three days around here. Ever. Not until they're an awful repeat offender, and certainly not before warning their parents about the phone use.

Adults pay attention to 14yr olds when they deserve attention being paid.
These kids seem to be able to do positive things.

http://www.businessmba.org/10-entrepreneurs-who-made-a-fortune-before-they-were-18
http://www.oddee.com/item_97090.aspx

Look, I'm not suggesting the school administration are heroes here. Far from it. But I think the notion of the "thought police" making a target of this kid because he challenged authority is absurd.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

The video this woman made to quit her teaching position pretty much sums it up for me, if you gloss over some of the more "woe is me" aspects and listen to the structural administrative problems facing teachers as she see's them.

Fairly short. Worth watching

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...r-resigns-on-youtube-20130524,0,7319566.story

 

[RJM62]

I remember kids sniffling and sometimes red-faced in school. They just went along with it and kept going. Nowadays everyone has to have a diagnosis for everything. And the docs will cooperate, why not? So every kid has an allergy, or ADD, or something.

In the interest of promoting thread creep:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-stein9-2009jan09,0,3149168.column?track=rss

-Rich

 

[SkyHog]

His only mistake was using the phone in school to create whatever he wanted to say about the admin. Was the punishment a little harsh? Yep, but within discretion of the admin.

I wouldn't have suspended him, but I would have given him detention with some of those natural logarithm calcs, or make him read Homer, or maybe figure out the best way to budget for the extra-curricular activities. But - that's me, and not the admin.

Yes, the school systems are bloated. It's what you get when you have a union with no oversight. We are spending way more per student than 20 years ago, and we are getting far less than we used to get. That's unionization, and there is a solution.

Can't blame the union on this one, they actually agree with us - the administration is not part of the union. The union generally feels that schools are too top heavy.

I think its because as useless as unions have become, even they can see something as obvious as this.

 

[Florida Cracker]

Can't blame the union on this one, they actually agree with us - the administration is not part of the union. The union generally feels that schools are too top heavy.

I think its because as useless as unions have become, even they can ADMIT something as obvious as this.

Just a slight change...

 

[Skylane81E]

Just wondering, where did all these allergies come from? I'm not that old, but I don't remember anyone having peanut allergies or any other allergies when I was growing up. Now I keep reading about all these kids having life-threatening allergies.

Well the latex allergies are supposedly related to past exposure. Beats me, I switched away from latex gloves because gasoline eats them up.

 

[dell30rb]

It was not "recognizing a top-heavy administration." He said he suggested cutting her because he doesn't "think she does a good job."

Is "I don't think she does a good job" slander? No. Should an 18 year old's opinion of his school's assistant principal be protected by the first amendment? Yes

 

[dell30rb]

You wouldn't take it personally if I publicly suggested you should be fired for incompetence? OK.

If you said "I think he is incompetent, he should be fired". That is your opinion and you are absolutely entitled to it under the first amendment. No matter how it makes someone feel.

If you said "I think he is incompetent, he should be fired because (insert lie here)" that is another matter.

 

[steingar]

It was not "recognizing a top-heavy administration." He said he suggested cutting her because he doesn't "think she does a good job."

It is not the place of a 14 year old student to tell an administrator what he or she should or shouldn't do. I get this from my students from time to time, and is the main reason I adopted semi-formal attire for my lectures.

 

[dell30rb]

It is not the place of a 14 year old student to tell an administrator what he or she should or shouldn't do. I get this from my students from time to time, and is the main reason I adopted semi-formal attire for my lectures.

The kid in the CNN story was 18. At that age he is paying taxes, voting and registered in the selective service. It is my opinion that he should be able to express his opinion of state employees in public without fear of retaliation. Again as long as he is not spreading an untruth about that particular employee.


I see that he was suspended for three days for "harassing the principal, using a mobile phone in class and disrupting the learning environment"

If the standard punishment for using the phone in class is 3 day suspension then he deserved it. But I don't agree with them accusing him of harassment for saying someone should be fired because they don't do a good job.

 

[Florida Cracker]

The kid in the CNN story was 18. At that age he is paying taxes, voting and registered in the selective service. It is my opinion that he should be able to express his opinion of state employees in public without fear of retaliation. Again as long as he is not spreading an untruth about that particular employee.


I see that he was suspended for three days for "harassing the principal, using a mobile phone in class and disrupting the learning environment"

If the standard punishment for using the phone in class is 3 day suspension then he deserved it. But I don't agree with them accusing him of harassment for saying someone should be fired because they don't do a good job.

Public schools are a breeding ground for conformity. The purpose of many public school adminstrators is to facilitate the breaking of an individual, in favor of creating more sheep, the government can live exploit to insure their survival, without having to do an actual job, that produces something of value.

 

[steingar]

The kid in the CNN story was 18. At that age he is paying taxes, voting and registered in the selective service. It is my opinion that he should be able to express his opinion of state employees in public without fear of retaliation. Again as long as he is not spreading an untruth about that particular employee.

Don't care, he was still a student in an institution of learning. It is not his place to tell the faculty or administrators what to do.

I see that he was suspended for three days for "harassing the principal, using a mobile phone in class and disrupting the learning environment"

Sounds about right to me. Or perhaps you would all approve of your underlings telling you what to do.

If the standard punishment for using the phone in class is 3 day suspension then he deserved it. But I don't agree with them accusing him of harassment for saying someone should be fired because they don't do a good job.

While I might not use the word "harassment" I do think it was inappropriate of him to make those comments in that context. Odds are there are a set of things with which they can accuse a student, and harassment was the closest thing that fit the bill.

 

[dell30rb]

Don't care, he was still a student in an institution of learning. It is not his place to tell the faculty or administrators what to do.

Sounds about right to me. Or perhaps you would all approve of your underlings telling you what to do.

While I might not use the word "harassment" I do think it was inappropriate of him to make those comments in that context. Odds are there are a set of things with which they can accuse a student, and harassment was the closest thing that fit the bill.

Where is he telling anyone "what to do". Harassment was the closest thing that fit the bill so they went with that one???? "Oh, can't find out what rule this kid is violating but I don't like what he's doing.. hmm harrassment sounds like it will work..."

I understand there needs to be order in the school and classroom. But what is said in public (twitter is by case law a public forum) BY AN ADULT should be protected free speech.

 

[steingar]

Where is he telling anyone "what to do".

I understand there needs to be order in the school and classroom. But what is said in public, outside the classroom should be protected free speech.

Agreed. But it was said inside the classroom, which is another matter entirely. The electronic equivalent of passing notes.

 

[dell30rb]

Agreed. But it was said inside the classroom, which is another matter entirely. The electronic equivalent of passing notes.

Just said he used the phone in class, didn't say he was posting to twitter during class. But I understand that the standard within "institutions of learning" is guilty until proven innocent (not making this up), so none of this means anything.

 

[dell30rb]

Agreed. But it was said inside the classroom, which is another matter entirely. The electronic equivalent of passing notes.

Not really as I would like to point out twitter has been ruled many, many times to be a public forum. Free speech but also libel and slander laws apply.

 

[steingar]

Not really as I would like to point out twitter has been ruled many, many times to be a public forum. Free speech but also libel and slander laws apply.

A student's right to free speech is just as protected as if they write notes and pass them around in class, but it has always been punishable in a parochial setting. I fail to see the difference.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

Public schools are a breeding ground for conformity. The purpose of many public school adminstrators is to facilitate the breaking of an individual, in favor of creating more sheep, the government can live exploit to insure their survival, without having to do an actual job, that produces something of value.

Public schools? You've got to be kidding me.

When I went to parochial school, all the boys wore blue shirts gray pants and maroon ties. Girls wore red paid skirts and white blouses. No exception. Nuns were armed with rulers, and weren't afraid to use them on knuckles for backtalk, sass or what they deemed unruly behaviors. (In hindsight, seems kind of ironic, rulers for the unruly.) If this child, young man, whatever, had done what he did in private school, he may well have been enrolling in public the next semester, if not the next week.

In my private high school, sport jackets and ties, girls gray skirts and conservative blouses. You've never seen conformity and respect for authority till you've seen a New England prep school. It was "yes, sir, no sir, thank you, sir". And what did all this conformity and discipline produce? A lot of very fine, very articulate independent critical thinkers. You may think whatever you wish, and were even encouraged to in the proper forums, but you behaved like a young gentleman or lady. Period.

Public schools don't strive for conformity. In many cases the singular goal is high scores on standardized tests, to hell with the rest.

 

[dmspilot]

Don't care.

What a mature response.

It is not his place to tell the faculty or administrators what to do.

Let's stick with the facts instead of making stuff up. The student did not "tell administrators what to do". He was suspended for "inciting a twitter riot", which is not even a real thing much less an actual crime. He has every right to express an opinion about how taxpayer money is spent, just like everyone else.

 

[steingar]

What a mature response.

I am unmoved by your disapproval. A high school student is just that, immaterial of their age.

Let's stick with the facts instead of making stuff up. The student did not "tell administrators what to do". He was suspended for "inciting a twitter riot", which is not even a real thing much less an actual crime. He has every right to express an opinion about how taxpayer money is spent, just like everyone else.

If I'm reading this right he was suspended because the authorities involved felt he disrupted the class. That is their call to make. Perhaps they made it incorrectly, I truly don't know since I wasn't there. Then again, neither were any of you.

 

[Florida Cracker]

Public schools? You've got to be kidding me.

When I went to parochial school, all the boys wore blue shirts gray pants and maroon ties. Girls wore red paid skirts and white blouses. No exception. Nuns were armed with rulers, and weren't afraid to use them on knuckles for backtalk, sass or what they deemed unruly behaviors. (In hindsight, seems kind of ironic, rulers for the unruly.) If this child, young man, whatever, had done what he did in private school, he may well have been enrolling in public the next semester, if not the next week.

In my private high school, sport jackets and ties, girls gray skirts and conservative blouses. You've never seen conformity and respect for authority till you've seen a New England prep school. It was "yes, sir, no sir, thank you, sir". And what did all this conformity and discipline produce? A lot of very fine, very articulate independent critical thinkers. You may think whatever you wish, and were even encouraged to in the proper forums, but you behaved like a young gentleman or lady. Period.

Public schools don't strive for conformity. In many cases the singular goal is high scores on standardized tests, to hell with the rest.

EXCEPT as public schools love to force conformity of ideas. How often public school teachers attack conservative ideas and ridicule any spoken thought not on the liberal plantation.
If you read through the number of actions won by orgs that sue schools whe they violate the rights of students in their never ending obsession with stamping out the free exchange of ideas, you would see a pattern of first amendment violations that seem to never end.