Thinking about an EV (nvm, bought one)

[Ted]

Well, don’t tell the tree hugging Tesla fanboys this, but they emit more tire emissions than ICE.

Hidden costs: Electric vehicle tires emit 20% more pollution

Electric vehicle tires, in particular, have been found to produce up to 20% more pollution compared to those on gasoline vehicles.

www.earth.com

I've seen those arguments, mostly based on the higher weight of EVs for an otherwise equivalent vehicle. I'll accept that to a point (same with the braking that's required to go with it), but given that weight is something that few consumers care about and vehicles have been continuing to go up in weight with mandated safety and emissions equipment/features and then customer-mandated/purchased options, I'll only accept it to a degree. Mostly, I think those arguments one way or the other are made less for the sake of being totally factually accurate and more to try to just be pro or against EVs. And meanwhile I'm over here like:

 

[Bill]

Tire wear is largely dependent on how you drive. I had an F-150 Supercrew, I liked the Michelin LTX MS2 tire for it’s great handling wet and dry. Most people get 60-80k out of these tires, I went thiugh a set evey 28k or so.

 

[tspear]

Brakes is brakes and tires is tires. Some brakes are just more dusty, and some emit almost zero dust - there's different formulas. Since generally dustier brakes are higher performing, I could see EV OEMs trying to minimize brake size/weight more and end up with more dust, but that argument seems fishy.

On most EV models now, when you hit the brake pedal you actually use regen instead of the brake pads. Only if you push on the brake hard enough that the regen cannot accomplish it, will the brake pads actually kick in.

Tires, no reason why an EV should be harsher on tires than my wife is with any of her cars. Whatever she's driving eats through tires way faster than whatever I'm driving.

Well, motorcycles are different. I eat through a lot more rear tires on those.

I have seen a few stats which state EVs are roughly 900lbs heavier when comparing like vehicles based on cabin and luxury level. That additional weight puts a lot of pressure on the tires, compounded by the fact EVs enable without driver consideration much more aggressive driving also place a lot of additional wear on the tires.

Tim

 

[schmookeeg]

I wonder also if the skinny LRR type tires on most EVs means that less rubber is carrying more weight, and thus, more tire dust or microparticulate or whatever we're calling this latest outrage.

other than asbestos, I had not heard of a brake dust outrage, so I'll add that one on the list of things to eventually be angry about. Next I suspect we'll be mad at the micro paint chips that fleck off of cars and end up in the air. The children need thought about.

I have not heard of an EV doing a "dynamic brake" by energizing the motors -- like what the bonanza landing gear does. That'd be really cool.

 

[Larry in TN]

Had my first really cold weather experience with my car last night.

It had been parked outside for over 48 hours in temperatures ranging from single digits to high 20s. When I landed last night, the temperature was 23F. I activated the Defrost Car mode. 20 minutes later the car was indicating 82F inside. When I arrived at the car the windows were all clear, the battery was warm, and all functions, which can be reduced when cold, were working normally. i.e. full regen was available. No signs of any impairment due to the temperature. The defrost mode used 4 percentage points off the SoC.

I plugged in when I arrived home, 8 mile drive. It ramped right up to the full 48A charge rate so no affect there, either.

 

[Velocity173]

On most EV models now, when you hit the brake pedal you actually use regen instead of the brake pads. Only if you push on the brake hard enough that the regen cannot accomplish it, will the brake pads actually kick in.



I have seen a few stats which state EVs are roughly 900lbs heavier when comparing like vehicles based on cabin and luxury level. That additional weight puts a lot of pressure on the tires, compounded by the fact EVs enable without driver consideration much more aggressive driving also place a lot of additional wear on the tires.

Tim

My Volt used blended brakes but Teslas don’t. All the regen on Teslas is simply through letting off the accelerator. Never really cared for the blended brakes on the Volt. You’d press them, get increased regen but not much in the way of actual braking. Press further and then they grip.

 

[Brad W]

My Audi uses the brake scheme of coasting when the foot comes off the accelerator...and it'll coast a very long way.....regen when pressing the brake pedal unless you're pressing harder than regen can handle then the friction brakes start grabbing. As far as I can tell regen is pretty close to 100% of my braking...although I do suspect that the last little bit... decelerating say down through 10mph or 5mph is likely some friction braking.

The only exception to this is that there is some logic that checks the brakes daily. As best as I can tell and as far as I know it's not every drive, just like once a day...the first stop after getting some speed up is generally all brakes. the idea is that it cleans the brakes and tests them.

I very much prefer this coasting logic much more than Tesla's one-pedal idea...

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

re: tire wear

I recall driving a certain Camero that would go through a set of rear tires in just a few thousand miles. Obviously defective.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Had my first really cold weather experience with my car last night.

It had been parked outside for over 48 hours in temperatures ranging from single digits to high 20s. When I landed last night, the temperature was 23F. I activated the Defrost Car mode. 20 minutes later the car was indicating 82F inside. When I arrived at the car the windows were all clear, the battery was warm, and all functions, which can be reduced when cold, were working normally. i.e. full regen was available. No signs of any impairment due to the temperature. The defrost mode used 4 percentage points off the SoC.

I plugged in when I arrived home, 8 mile drive. It ramped right up to the full 48A charge rate so no affect there, either.

I think the crux comes when you aren't able to get the vehicle to respond (connectivity/spotty signal). Then you get to the car and have to wait 20 minutes for it to preheat/precondition. I'd be pretty annoyed if I just got done with a half day of airline travel and then couldn't get my EV to respond without standing next to it. Not a large chance of it happening, but I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility in a parking garage.

 

[Larry in TN]

I think the crux comes when you aren't able to get the vehicle to respond (connectivity/spotty signal). Then you get to the car and have to wait 20 minutes for it to preheat/precondition. I'd be pretty annoyed if I just got done with a half day of airline travel and then couldn't get my EV to respond without standing next to it. Not a large chance of it happening, but I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility in a parking garage.

In over two years, I've never had that happen. I've never parked somewhere without network coverage.

I have spent significant amounts of time trying to de-ice cold-soaked gasoline cars on many occasions over the years. Don't see how the un-preheated EV would be any different. Many newer ICE cars now have a remote start feature that would allow pre-heating but they are also contingent on being parked somewhere with cell service.

 

[FastEddieB]

My Volt used blended brakes but Teslas don’t. All the regen on Teslas is simply through letting off the accelerator.

I don’t know if this qualifies as “blended”, but from Tesla:

”To experience the same amount of deceleration whenever you release the accelerator pedal, regardless of the state of the Battery, you can choose to have the regular braking system automatically engage whenever regenerative braking is limited. Touch Controls > Pedals & Steering> Apply Brakes When Regenerative Braking is Limited.”

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Okay so 1 week into EV ownership:

Charging:
I had the fun joy of pulling conduit and 4AWG wires when it was 0*F in the garage, but hey now I have a level 2 charger.

The driving experience is really exceptional. Being able to recharge at home is both key and makes it very nice to own, if I was unable to have a level 2 charger at home that would completely change my outlook on an EV. It's a huge added benefit to go out to the garage and have the vehicle be ready to go, no worrying about leaving a few minutes early to head to the gas station to freeze my ass off filling up, and I can turn it on in the garage to warm it up without asphyxiating. I didn't think it would be that big of a deal, but it's the small things. Not to mention how incredibly cheap it is. I went to go buy the 240v breaker I needed from Home Depot and it cost me $1.37 in electricity to make the 60 mile round trip... that's so cool! It really makes going out and about in town less of a waste and less of something to think about. Before it would be a 'lets group as many errands together to save on gas', to 'oh I need this, let me go get it'. In a lot of ways this makes an EV far better than an ICE vehicle for that kind of mission.

EV's:
The owners group for the MachE and really all EV's seem like the cars aren't really figured out yet. There are a lot of ongoing issues with the vehicles regardless of the manufacturer, though as pointed out before it seems like mostly zealots or at the minimum people really into EV's that are willing to look the other way on big problems. At least with the MachE this is reflected in the used market and it seems like every other used one has a lemon or manufacturer buy-back title. I think I had a big advantage in buying used, not just in depreciation, but in avoiding a car with infant mortality.

The owner groups of all manufacturers OBSESS over long-term battery health, seemingly without understanding that time is probably the biggest enemy to that battery life. The rules some of these people come up with are wild. "Don't charge above 50%, NEVER use wide open throttle, only charge several hours after you've driven to let the battery cool down, etc. etc." Yes there are some thing, Ford for example says to keep the max charge at 90% unless going on a roadtrip, and I follow the general EV guidelines of 80% max charge since I just don't need more than that even in the cold - but some people take it to a whole new level of obsession, measuring their battery health daily or weekly from some very arbitrary parameters. Really just drive the thing and don't be stupid and it'll last as long as you need it to. I think all of these insane rules just translate to being a bad ambassador for EV ownership

The MachE:
The MachE itself has REALLY high build quality. I've never seen any other Ford with panel gap as tight and precise as this, or such a well put-together interior. It really feels like an ultra luxury vehicle... and I have the base model! I wouldn't be surprised one bit if Ford is losing money on every single one sold. Again with the base model I couldn't be more impressed with the vehicle. I went with the base for a couple reasons, one being price, but on the used market it wouldn't cost that much more to go for a higher end. Not having a moonroof is nice - I have bad experiences in other vehicles with these so one less failure mode is nice and they tend to frost up or bake the car depending on the season. The higher end models also use their battery faster and take longer to charge. This model in particular the previous owner (dealership manager) installed heated seats in which otherwise would have been a dealbreaker to not have, so this one was perfect for us and what we need, and still continues to be. It's a really good intro to EV's for us. Knock on wood - I don't have any of the common reported issues in this vehicle, or the previous owners took care of them. I will admit some of the stories I see/hear on these does have me seriously considering a manufacturer/dealer extended warranty, for the first time on any vehicle I've owned.

I've never really liked the look of any crossover, but I do have to admit that Ford did a really nice job. I think both of my Ford vehicles are neck breakers to keep looking back at. I (of course) agree with all of the others that no it isn't a mustang, and I'd never (seriously) refer to it as a mustang, it will forever be 'the Mach-E'. I sure do see a lot of these on the road. It's certainly the #2 EV behind Tesla's in numbers.

EV Trucks:
With all of the attention on EV trucks I thought I'd do a quick little blurb here: I still don't understand an EV truck. I don't do a ton of towing, but really my truck is a jack of all trades because well, it might be towing one day, camping the next, picking up a lawnmower accross the state after that, or just being a DD commuter. Most of what I do with my truck is for one-off adventures or trips to go buy something, all stuff that's ill suited for an EV. Because these trucks are getting so big and heavy, the batteries have to be equally massive to compensate... so much so that even with a level 2 home charger it may take 12+ hours to realistically charge the thing. But a smaller grocery getter/commuter makes perfect sense to be an EV, at least in my household, fast charge times, and plenty of range for what we do... so the household truck will stay ICE long into the future.

So far:
So far I'm really enjoying the vehicle. Wife and I fight over who gets to drive it because it's such a fun experience unlike any over vehicle we've driven and it is absolutely perfect for our 'mission'. The acceleration and performance is addicting, not to mention how quiet it is and easy to have a conversation, I don't know that I've ever felt 'that' fatigued from driving, but this car makes it truly easy and fun to drive and go places. I'm not certain if I bought new I'd be quite as thrilled, as we saved $20-25k just by having 10k miles on the vehicle, so 'for the price we bought it at' it's INCREDIBLE. I look forward to continuing to explore this world, as frankly I had no idea it could be so different. I know I know - all of you that have EV's already know these things, but I'm not someone that's super into EV's and I'm discovering a lot of this as I go... really it's just a car that met our specs so we jumped headfirst in, rather than someone that bought an EV exclusively because it was an EV.

I'm excited to see where EV's go from here, as they're definitely here to stay and as of now I don't forsee ever not having one in the household. 1 ICE & 1 BEV seems to be a real sweet spot.

 

[MIFlyer]

Okay so 1 week into EV ownership:

Charging:
I had the fun joy of pulling conduit and 4AWG wires when it was 0*F in the garage, but hey now I have a level 2 charger.

The driving experience is really exceptional. Being able to recharge at home is both key and makes it very nice to own, if I was unable to have a level 2 charger at home that would completely change my outlook on an EV. It's a huge added benefit to go out to the garage and have the vehicle be ready to go, no worrying about leaving a few minutes early to head to the gas station to freeze my ass off filling up, and I can turn it on in the garage to warm it up without asphyxiating. I didn't think it would be that big of a deal, but it's the small things. Not to mention how incredibly cheap it is. I went to go buy the 240v breaker I needed from Home Depot and it cost me $1.37 in electricity to make the 60 mile round trip... that's so cool! It really makes going out and about in town less of a waste and less of something to think about. Before it would be a 'lets group as many errands together to save on gas', to 'oh I need this, let me go get it'. In a lot of ways this makes an EV far better than an ICE vehicle for that kind of mission.

EV's:
The owners group for the MachE and really all EV's seem like the cars aren't really figured out yet. There are a lot of ongoing issues with the vehicles regardless of the manufacturer, though as pointed out before it seems like mostly zealots or at the minimum people really into EV's that are willing to look the other way on big problems. At least with the MachE this is reflected in the used market and it seems like every other used one has a lemon or manufacturer buy-back title. I think I had a big advantage in buying used, not just in depreciation, but in avoiding a car with infant mortality.

The owner groups of all manufacturers OBSESS over long-term battery health, seemingly without understanding that time is probably the biggest enemy to that battery life. The rules some of these people come up with are wild. "Don't charge above 50%, NEVER use wide open throttle, only charge several hours after you've driven to let the battery cool down, etc. etc." Yes there are some thing, Ford for example says to keep the max charge at 90% unless going on a roadtrip, and I follow the general EV guidelines of 80% max charge since I just don't need more than that even in the cold - but some people take it to a whole new level of obsession, measuring their battery health daily or weekly from some very arbitrary parameters. Really just drive the thing and don't be stupid and it'll last as long as you need it to.

The MachE:
The MachE itself has REALLY high build quality. I've never seen any other Ford with panel gap as tight and precise as this, or such a well put-together interior. It really feels like an ultra luxury vehicle... and I have the base model! I wouldn't be surprised one bit if Ford is losing money on every single one sold. Again with the base model I couldn't be more impressed with the vehicle. I went with the base for a couple reasons, one being price, but on the used market it wouldn't cost that much more to go for a higher end. Not having a moonroof is nice - I have bad experiences in other vehicles with these so one less failure mode is nice and they tend to frost up or bake the car depending on the season. The higher end models also use their battery faster and take longer to charge. This model in particular the previous owner (dealership manager) installed heated seats in which otherwise would have been a dealbreaker to not have, so this one was perfect for us and what we need, and still continues to be. It's a really good intro to EV's for us. Knock on wood - I don't have any of the common reported issues in this vehicle, or the previous owners took care of them. I will admit some of the stories I see/hear on these does have me seriously considering a manufacturer/dealer extended warranty, for the first time on any vehicle I've owned.

I've never really liked the look of any crossover, but I do have to admit that Ford did a really nice job. I think both of my Ford vehicles are neck breakers to keep looking back at. I (of course) agree with all of the others that no it isn't a mustang, and I'd never (seriously) refer to it as a mustang, it will forever be 'the Mach-E'.

EV Trucks:
With all of the attention on EV trucks I thought I'd do a quick little blurb here: I still don't understand an EV truck. I don't do a ton of towing, but really my truck is a jack of all trades because well, it might be towing one day, camping the next, picking up a lawnmower accross the state after that, or just being a DD commuter. Most of what I do with my truck is for one-off adventures or trips to go buy something, all stuff that's ill suited for an EV. Because these trucks are getting so big and heavy, the batteries have to be equally massive to compensate... so much so that even with a level 2 home charger it may take 12+ hours to realistically charge the thing. But a smaller grocery getter/commuter makes perfect sense to be an EV, at least in my household, fast charge times, and plenty of range for what we do.

So far:
So far I'm really enjoying the vehicle. Wife and I fight over who gets to drive it because it's such a fun experience unlike any over vehicle we've driven and it is absolutely perfect for our 'mission'. The acceleration and performance is addicting, not to mention how quiet it is and easy to have a conversation, I don't know that I've ever felt 'that' fatigued from driving, but this car makes it truly easy and fun to drive and go places. I'm not certain if I bought new I'd be quite as thrilled, as we saved 20-25k just by having 10k miles on the vehicle, so 'for the price we bought it at' it's INCREDIBLE. I look forward to continuing to explore this world, as frankly I had no idea it could be so different. I know I know - all of you that have EV's already know these things, but I'm not someone that's super into EV's and I'm discovering a lot of this as I go... really it's just a car that met our specs so we jumped headfirst in, rather than someone that bought an EV exclusively because it was an EV.

I'm excited to see where EV's go from here, as they're definitely here to stay and as of now I don't forsee ever not having one in the household. 1 ICE & 1 BEV seems to be a real sweet spot.

Great report. Before you pulled the big wires, you should have added a 30A 240V circuit with #10 wire and put one of these in the garage.

Totally transforms the "working in the garage" paradigm. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003XOZN7A/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[SoonerAviator]

In over two years, I've never had that happen. I've never parked somewhere without network coverage.

I have spent significant amounts of time trying to de-ice cold-soaked gasoline cars on many occasions over the years. Don't see how the un-preheated EV would be any different. Many newer ICE cars now have a remote start feature that would allow pre-heating but they are also contingent on being parked somewhere with cell service.

I'm not in disagreement, however I can start an ICE vehicle and be on my way even without remote start. If I had to sit and wait for a battery to precondition itself I wouldn't be happy about it.

 

[rwellner98]

It really feels like an ultra luxury vehicle... and I have the base model!

What are you gonna use to clean it?

 

[TCABM]

…
The MachE:
The MachE itself has REALLY high build quality. … I wouldn't be surprised one bit if Ford is losing money on every single one sold...

They are, to the tune of $36K+ per vehicle. Build quality isn’t the culprit though.

Ford Cuts EV Investment After Losing $36,000 On Every EV Sold In Q3

Despite a 44 percent increase in EV deliveries, Ford's EV losses continued to rise in the Q3, with the company posting an operating loss of $1.3 billion.

insideevs.com

 

[Velocity173]

I don’t know if this qualifies as “blended”, but from Tesla:

”To experience the same amount of deceleration whenever you release the accelerator pedal, regardless of the state of the Battery, you can choose to have the regular braking system automatically engage whenever regenerative braking is limited. Touch Controls > Pedals & Steering> Apply Brakes When Regenerative Braking is Limited.”

That’s just the normal caliper brakes engaging when the accelerator is released. That’s to make up for regen being limited during cold temps and the battery not preconditioned. Blended braking is an increase in regen when the brake is pressed. Pressing the pedal on a Tesla won’t increase regen.

 

[FastEddieB]

That’s just the normal caliper brakes engaging when the accelerator is released. That’s to make up for regen being limited during cold temps and the battery not preconditioned. Blended braking is an increase in regen when the brake is pressed. Pressing the pedal on a Tesla won’t increase regen.

Thanks. I wasn’t clear on the terminology, nor whether the brake pedal on a Tesla did bump up the level of regen.

 

[Larry in TN]

Being able to recharge at home is both key and makes it very nice to own, if I was unable to have a level 2 charger at home that would completely change my outlook on an EV. It's a huge added benefit to go out to the garage and have the vehicle be ready to go, no worrying about leaving a few minutes early to head to the gas station to freeze my ass off filling up, and I can turn it on in the garage to warm it up without asphyxiating. I didn't think it would be that big of a deal

Yeah, I've said that a number of times. You really don't get it until you've experienced it.

I've never really liked the look of any crossover, but I do have to admit that Ford did a really nice job.

I really like how they used the black on the roof in the back so that the body color suggests the shape of the old Mustang fast back.

I'm not in disagreement, however I can start an ICE vehicle and be on my way even without remote start. If I had to sit and wait for a battery to precondition itself I wouldn't be happy about it.

What makes you think that I couldn't have done the same with my car? It just would have been cold, the windows fogged, and the regen limited. If I had a gas car with remote start I would have done exactly the same thing.

In over two-years of ownership, that was the first time I used the Defrost Car function. I've turned on the climate control before, both in hot and cold weather, but never the full defrost mode.

 

[Jim K]

My Volt used blended brakes but Teslas don’t. All the regen on Teslas is simply through letting off the accelerator. Never really cared for the blended brakes on the Volt. You’d press them, get increased regen but not much in the way of actual braking. Press further and then they grip.

Didn't know that. One of the things our Pacifica hybrid does really well is regen braking. Slowing from 60mph to make a turn, it's not unusual to get 1% battery charge back. I assumed if Chrysler could figure it out, everyone else would have by now as well. The mechanical brakes only kick in at very low speed or panic braking.

Downside is that with almost all the braking being done by the front wheels, coupled with the weight, the thing eats tires. About 30k on a set.

. It's a huge added benefit to go out to the garage and have the vehicle be ready to go

Yep. Our car has a scheduler built in that pre-heats everything (and pre-cools in the summer), so when my wife gets out there in the morning it's toasty warm and ready to go. I can also schedule charge time windows, so the car charges at night when our power is like 2 cents/ kwh on our dynamic pricing plan. The battery is basically the equivalent of a gallon of gas, which at that price equates to about 20 cents/ gallon.

 

[Velocity173]

Didn't know that. One of the things our Pacifica hybrid does really well is regen braking. Slowing from 60mph to make a turn, it's not unusual to get 1% battery charge back. I assumed if Chrysler could figure it out, everyone else would have by now as well. The mechanical brakes only kick in at very low speed or panic braking.

Downside is that with almost all the braking being done by the front wheels, coupled with the weight, the thing eats tires. About 30k on a set.


Yep. Our car has a scheduler built in that pre-heats everything (and pre-cools in the summer), so when my wife gets out there in the morning it's toasty warm and ready to go. I can also schedule charge time windows, so the car charges at night when our power is like 2 cents/ kwh on our dynamic pricing plan. The battery is basically the equivalent of a gallon of gas, which at that price equates to about 20 cents/ gallon.

This is the system the Volt uses. Not sure how common blended braking is in EVs or Hybrids.

Yeah precondition is nice. I forgot to precondition the Tesla yesterday and she coasted like a normal ICE car. Just too cold for the battery to take regen. Cabin uses a resistance heater though so it heats up quick.

 

[Jim K]

This is the system the Volt uses. Not sure how common blended braking is in EVs or Hybrids.

Yeah precondition is nice. I forgot to precondition the Tesla yesterday and she coasted like a normal ICE car. Just too cold for the battery to take regen. Cabin uses a resistance heater though so it heats up quick.

I never thought about it before, but I'll bet the regen works so well in our car because the drive motor is coupled through an ivt because it has to work in tandem with the ICE. It can then "downshift" to spin up the motor/generator at lower wheel speeds. Basically old school engine braking, but with the ability to capture the energy.

It's a really clever system. There's two electric motors; one is a traction motor/ generator, and the other operates the ivt and starts the gas engine. I'm always amazed it works as seamlessly as it does. It's WAY smoother, faster and nicer to drive than the gas only version of the car. We rented a gas Pacifica to get back from Florida when the airplane stranded us, and that automatic (9 speed I think? ) transmission hunted gears the whole 1000 miles home.

 

[Brad W]

Yeah, I've said that a number of times. You really don't get it until you've experienced it.


I really like how they used the black on the roof in the back so that the body color suggests the shape of the old Mustang fast back.


What makes you think that I couldn't have done the same with my car? It just would have been cold, the windows fogged, and the regen limited. If I had a gas car with remote start I would have done exactly the same thing.

In over two-years of ownership, that was the first time I used the Defrost Car function. I've turned on the climate control before, both in hot and cold weather, but never the full defrost mode.

unless that gas car was in a closed garage.... that wouldn't be awesome.
It's nice to get into a warmed car that is in the garage

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Life's no fun if you can't laugh at yourself.

 

[francisco collazos]

I've been driving a 2021 iD4 and it's been a great car. My wife drives an eTron. I drive about 6 mi a day and she does at least 60 and sometimes way more. We also added solar panels going on 2 yrs ago. I estimate we save about $300 in gas a month and another couple hundred in electrical bills. I don't know anyone that has moved from gas to electric go back to gas. A lot of the complaints I hear about EV are nonsense such as range. I do think that there are valid concerns regarding battery longevity and replacement cost. The one question that people always bring up is long trips and how I go about doing that with an EV. I explain that I just rent a car and that's it. The monthly cost saving easily make up for renting a car for a couple of days.

 

[judypilot]

FTFY

Zealots gonna zealot.

I don't think that the fact that most of my missions are incompatible with EVs makes me a zealot. It makes me a realist. On the whole, I've found that EV owners are far more zealous, you know, about saving the world and all.

 

[Larry in TN]

I don't think that the fact that most of my missions are incompatible with EVs makes me a zealot. It makes me a realist. On the whole, I've found that EV owners are far more zealous, you know, about saving the world and all.

Has saving the world even been mentioned as a pro-EV argument in this thread?

I can't even remember a single Tesla owner saying that the environmental benefits of EVs was a significant factor is his purchase decision. We drive them because we prefer the driving, and owning, experience to ICE vehicles.

 

[FastEddieB]

Has saving the world even been mentioned as a pro-EV argument in this thread?

I can't even remember a single Tesla owner saying that the environmental benefits of EVs was a significant factor is his purchase decision. We drive them because we prefer the driving, and owning, experience to ICE vehicles.

It does sometimes cross my mind that we're no longer producing used motor oil that has to be bought and disposed of, and overall are cutting back on carbon emissions, if only a little. But then you have to get into the cost and side effects of mining the metals for the batteries and such, and that leads down into a rabbit hole.

But we also have mainly focused on the "driving, and owning, experience" being quite favorable.

 

[MIFlyer]

I've been driving a 2021 iD4 and it's been a great car. My wife drives an eTron. I drive about 6 mi a day and she does at least 60 and sometimes way more. We also added solar panels going on 2 yrs ago. I estimate we save about $300 in gas a month and another couple hundred in electrical bills. I don't know anyone that has moved from gas to electric go back to gas. A lot of the complaints I hear about EV are nonsense such as range. I do think that there are valid concerns regarding battery longevity and replacement cost. The one question that people always bring up is long trips and how I go about doing that with an EV. I explain that I just rent a car and that's it. The monthly cost saving easily make up for renting a car for a couple of days.

I did, but I'm the exception that proves the rule almost. I only did it because we needed to go from a little 2+2 seat electric we loved to a 7 passenger SUV and the choice in 7 passenger SUVs had none that were also in the range of $$ we were willing to spend.

I expect when we replace this car in a few years (it's a used 2015), there will be some decent electric family hauler choices that aren't 100K

 

[tspear]

Has saving the world even been mentioned as a pro-EV argument in this thread?

I can't even remember a single Tesla owner saying that the environmental benefits of EVs was a significant factor is his purchase decision. We drive them because we prefer the driving, and owning, experience to ICE vehicles.

On multiple EV threads, I often see people who constantly imply owners only get EVs for some environmental decision. usually when trying to defend and generalize their very specific requirements are universal in nature. Often missing the fact that most of their mission if not practical now from an EV perspective it usually will not be long. There are exceptions of course, there probably always will be.

But I agree, most EV owners I know, and most people posting about them online that I see, just like EVs better, The fact you start with a "full" tank every day, the quiet, the performance, reduced MX hassles...

Tim

 

[CJones]

On multiple EV threads, I often see people who constantly imply owners only get EVs for some environmental decision. usually when trying to defend and generalize their very specific requirements are universal in nature. Often missing the fact that most of their mission if not practical now from an EV perspective it usually will not be long. There are exceptions of course, there probably always will be.

But I agree, most EV owners I know, and most people posting about them online that I see, just like EVs better, The fact you start with a "full" tank every day, the quiet, the performance, reduced MX hassles...

Tim

My wife's typical 'mission profile' would fit an EV almost perfectly. I can even get on board with needing to somewhat plan ahead for the few times that we would exceed the range of a full charge. What I can't get over, though, is the holistic environmental impact of the car. I'm far from what you would call a 'tree hugger', and maybe I've just bought been duped by the hullabaloo about the mining, manufacturing, and dealing with expired batteries, but that's the primary factor that's preventing me from investing in an EV today.

 

[172andyou]

maybe I've just bought been duped by the hullabaloo about the mining, manufacturing, and dealing with expired batteries

Yes, that's right. You've been duped. EVs are not perfect, but they are still better - even including the fact that batteries have to be made and disposed of. To be fair, it's kind of hard for people to wrap their heads around the one time pollution/environmental cost of batteries compared to 20-30 years of pollution caused by mining oil, shipping it around and lighting it on fire to move a vehicle. But it's not even close. Batteries are better. And that's only going to improve as the nascent battery recycling industry improves its processes. And it improves even more if you can source your electricity with renewables like solar.

 

[FastEddieB]

I believe the batteries are roughly 90% recyclable, and companies are springing up to do just that. Very few will end up in landfills.

Not to mention, how much gasoline is recyclable?

 

[schmookeeg]

I'll be dead before all of my anti-environment sins pile up to smite me.

I first drove an EV because Ungle Sugar kicked me $2,500 towards one. Then he kicked me $7,500 towards my second and third EVs. So my reasons are many -- 17,500 reasons in fact.

I respond to incentives like any other creature.

 

[172andyou]

Not to mention, how much gasoline is recyclable?

My house is mostly made of wood that was grown using CO2 produced by the automative industry and then sequestered into a building. Still don't understand why my wife gets mad that I call it The Carbon Dump.

 

[judypilot]

I believe the batteries are roughly 90% recyclable, and companies are springing up to do just that. Very few will end up in landfills.

Not to mention, how much gasoline is recyclable?

They can be recycled, but as of now are not very much because the process is extremely complicated, expensive, and dangerous. I tried to post a link to an article from MIT that comments on this, but I can't get the hyperlink to work. Here's the URL: https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/how-well-can-electric-vehicle-batteries-be-recycled

I've seen several other articles along the same lines, including one that explained in great detail what the challenges are that I can't seem to put my hands on right now.

You are correct that eventually the market will have to catch up, but right now the batteries are either in landfills or stacking up somewhere, and as of a couple of years ago, anyway, companies that are trying to recycle them aren't having a lot of luck. However, both methods of transportation have their downsides and it is not at all clear that when it comes to the environment, economics, reliability, and all the other factors that go into deciding which way to go, one is superior to the other at this point in time.

I expect landfills and junkyards will be the new rare element and iron mines sometime in the future.

 

[Larry in TN]

What I can't get over, though, is the holistic environmental impact of the car. I'm far from what you would call a 'tree hugger', and maybe I've just bought been duped by the hullabaloo about the mining, manufacturing, and dealing with expired batteries, but that's the primary factor that's preventing me from investing in an EV today.

Do some more research.

Lithium is the 25th most common element and can be mined cleanly. The US has large deposits of Lithium and multiple companies are ramping up for domestic production.

Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) batteries do not have any rare earth metals (cobalt and nickel). Over half of the world's current EV production uses LFP batteries.

Few EV batteries are recycled today because very few EV batteries have reached end-of-life. There are a number of start-ups developing large-scale EV battery recycling, one of which was started by a former Tesla executive who left Tesla to build his recycling company. His company's technology can recover 95% of the battery's metals for use in building new EV batteries.

The current life cycle of an EV battery is a battery that will last longer than the car in which it is installed before it "wears out". Cars that are totaled have their battery packs/cells recovered, reconditioned, and used to repair cars that have had a battery failure (failure vs. wearing out). When an EV is retired before the battery has worn out, or when a battery has degraded to the point where it is not longer useful in a car, the battery is repurposed in the growing power storage applications. This ranges from single home battery backup to grid-level backup. The power backup application is not as space-constrained as an EV and is far less demanding on the battery with its low rates of charge and discharge and lower temperatures. (Hawaii has just replaced their last coal-fired peaker power plant with a Tesla grid-level mega-pack installation) When the batteries have degraded to the point that they are replaced from their power backup role, they will be recycled, recovering ~95% of the metals for use in building new batteries.

I'm sure nobody will believe me, so do your own searches.

 

[Velocity173]

EVs are better for the environment but it’s not a silver bullet for climate change. UK did a study that showed going full EV would only reduce Co2 emmisions by 12 %. The Co2 in the atmosphere can stay there thousands of years. Going full EV would hardly make a dent for global warming.

Electric Cars Won’t Save the Planet - John Kass

by Greg Ganske June 2, 2023 Little boys love to play with their toy cars and grown men love their real ones. Ask a guy about his first car and his eyes get misty. My first was a 1949 Hudson that held the entire high school golf team, then came a 1960 TR-3 with no heater, followed by a “Just ...

johnkassnews.com

 

[172andyou]

EVs are better for the environment but it’s not a silver bullet for climate change. UK did a study that showed going full EV would only reduce Co2 emmisions by 12 %. The Co2 in the atmosphere can stay there thousands of years. Going full EV would hardly make a dent for global warming.

It's worth noting that he proposes switching the power grid to nuclear energy, which aside from having bigger mining and disposal issues than lithium, would also increase the price of electricity by a factor of three compared to solar or wind. We should take the 12% win from cars *AND* continue migrating the power grid to renewables. Nukes are dangerous dinosaurs and their price reflects that danger factor.

 

[SoonerAviator]

It's worth noting that he proposes switching the power grid to nuclear energy, which aside from having bigger mining and disposal issues than lithium, would also increase the price of electricity by a factor of three compared to solar or wind. We should take the 12% win from cars *AND* continue migrating the power grid to renewables. Nukes are dangerous dinosaurs and their price reflects that danger factor.

Last couple of academic papers I saw on nuke power is that it had better payback over most other fuel sources (aside from Hydro) over the course of 20-25 years because that's how long it takes to even begin to break even on the capital costs vs coal/nat gas plants. The problem is EPA/gov't regulation making it prohibitively expensive to even attempt getting approval, and then finding capital to do so when the ROI is measured in decades, not years. "Dangerous dinosaurs" . . . can't really even take you serious after that comment. Molten-salt and other modern nuclear sources aren't anywhere near what I'd call dangerous, and many can reuse the spent fuel rods already in storage. Sure, nuclear has a problem with radioactive storage, but it's a stable long-term base load power source. Nuclear only costs more in the short term, but over the life of a nuclear plant is generally less than wind/solar/coal/gas. Having to replace and rebuilt solar panels and wind turbines frequently over the course of a few decades is no small cost.