Thinking about a Lathe and Milling Machine

Ted

Ted

The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted
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iFlyNothing
There are two things that I've been wanting in my garage for... as long as I've had a garage. A lathe and a milling machine. I think it's starting to become time to seriously consider adding them.

Use case: If you're reading this, you probably know I do a lot of stuff in my shop. Some of it is off the wall. I have a friend who has a CNC milling machine that I have made use of on multiple occasions, and he still likes me, so that is probably a lower priority. However, I am at a point where there are a number of projects for which a lathe would be handy.

When it comes to mills, the only name I know of basically making universally good products is Bridgeport. When it comes to lathes, I really haven't a clue of what are good brands vs. bad brands. The other problem is figuring out sizing. Enough of what I want to do are large enough items that I think if I'm going to buy a lathe, I should probably buy a pretty big one. Definitely looking used. But again, really not sure what to look for.

From the machinists around here, any suggestions on specifics to look for? I realize that a lot of the bits and specific tools/arbors are where a good chunk of the value comes in a used piece comes in.
 
For bigger lathes look at used Clausing Colchester's if you can find one. Many of the Bridgeport clones are pretty darn solid mills, particularly the ones made in Taiwan. I would take a newer Taiwan mill over an old Bridgeport with worn ways.
 
I can’t address specific equipment, but I’ll note that my brother bought a fairly large lathe pretty cheaply, apparently because of the pickup and transport issues. I suspect you’d have the ability to work those out like he did.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I can’t address specific equipment, but I’ll note that my brother bought a fairly large lathe pretty cheaply, apparently because of the pickup and transport issues. I suspect you’d have the ability to work those out like he did.
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How would you define "pretty cheaply"? It seems like $3k is about the going asking price for a good sized one on Marketplace, but who knows what they'd take vs. what they ask.
 
Ted said:
How would you define "pretty cheaply"? It seems like $3k is about the going asking price for a good sized one on Marketplace, but who knows what they'd take vs. what they ask.
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I really don’t have a clue on that…While I don’t remember the numbers, I recall my brother telling me the length and weight of his lathe, but I don’t recall hearing the price.
 
Generally speaking, the single phase, manual mills and lathes will be the highest price because the number of people looking for that sort of machine is the greatest. If you got into three phase/CNC stuff you generally get a lot more machine for the money spent. Make sure whatever you end up with isn’t worn out or simply junk. A couple of years ago the company I work for bought a new imported lathe and mill and they’re both so bad that they’re not even worth using. For my personal projects I just end up going over to my buddy’s machine shop and use his tools or ask one of his guys to make me things I need made. It’s less convenient but far cheaper and better because he already has everything I need.

Tooling will always be the biggest problem. You’ll probably spend at least the purchase price over again just to get enough stuff to get by for doing small/simple jobs.
 
mondtster said:
Tooling will always be the biggest problem. You’ll probably spend at least the purchase price over again just to get enough stuff to get by for doing small/simple jobs.
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^^^^ No exaggeration ^^^^
When I had my shop (personal use only) I had two manual lathes, an old Bridgeport, a HAAS TM-1 with 4th axis, a Lee surface grinder, 16" horizontal band saw, presses, drill press, Tig/Mig/Stick/plasma cutter and the cost of the tooling was much past double for the cost of equipment. The manual lathes/mill were used/surplus so about 10-15% of new acquisition price. I was able to source some used tooling from Reliable End Mill that sold surplus aerospace job shop tooling at about 1/3 new cost which helped tremendously but they are no longer in business I understand.
 
I got into hobby machining about 5 years ago. Not because I had anything specific I wanted to accomplish, but it seemed like fun and maybe I could pick up some skills if I decide to build a plane when I retire. After some research the two things that drove my eventual purchase: I didn't know what I didn't know, and I live in a row house and am severely space constrained for a shop. I decided on a new lathe since I didn't think I'd be able to accurately evaluate the condition of an old one, and figured a 10x22" was about the largest that would fit in the space I had. Now, after a few years with the lathe, I'm working on making space for a mill.

What I've learned:

The tooling comment is accurate. I bought the lathe new for a little over $4K and spent about that much again almost immediately on tooling, and then again over the next several years on more tooling.

I'm glad I bought new, but if I ever have the space I would love to have something like a Monarch 10EE that had been restored by someone who knew what they were doing.

I bought a Grizzly G0752 and am mostly happy with it. I got mine with a simple DRO, which is not as critical for a lathe as opposed to a mill, but I'm glad I have it. Mine does not have power cross feed, and that is a big regret. I wouldn't buy another lathe without it. Grizzly has been fine, but if I buy a new lathe again, I'll likely go with Precision Matthews. The mill I'm planning will be from PM as well.

And yes, I have made replacement parts for my plane with it. :D
PXL_20220723_191403978.jpg PXL_20220723_192445491.jpg PXL_20220723_201417062.jpg
 
Figure the largest thing you want to turn, diameter and length wide, then add 25%. Now look at the materials you want to turn and look at feeds and speeds. Now start looking for a machine that will cover as much of that band as possible. For lathes, Sheldon. Monarch, ATW, Warner Swazey, Hardinge, et.al. Look to http://www.lathes.co.uk/ for info on stuff older than 15-20 years.

For a mill, essentially the same exercise, but pay attention to table travels and the Z axis.
Used industrial stuff can be had for decent prices, but make sure you have enough electrical headroom for a phase converter to run it, and can run that much horsepower on your POCO feed. As a data point, my POCO has a max limit of 7.5 horsepower motors on the feed for residential. Over at Dad's house, it's 15 hp, but then his neighborhood is 3 phase to the breaker panels for most of the houses.
 
I know many gunsmiths that have Precision Matthews lathes and get great results. It seems to be a good value in the 12-13x40 size range. I compete in 600-1000yd high power rifle matches and often shoot with the founder/owner of Grizzly. He is a very nice fellow with quite a success story.
 
Grizzly and Jet both made decent tools for what you want to do.
Precision Matthews is about the same with a bit better quality control.

I've restored several lathes (hardinge, southbend etc) and miling machines (bridgeport, enco, cincinatti etc) and have bought new machines of both types both manual and CNC.
IMO it depends on what you want to do, do you want to make parts or work on the tool?
With a cheap used tool it's a lot of fun to restore/tinker/make better but you'll spend a lot of time doing that before you can reliably make parts.

If you want to make parts just get a midgrade import (grizzly, jet, powermatic, PM etc) either new or close to it and get to work.

The most useful tool in my shop is the CNC plasma, just to put another bug in your ear. It gets 10x the use for general fabrication work as any of the other tools in the shop. If I could only have one $$ tool for racecars, motorcycles and general fab that would be it.
 
Man, loaded question.

I have a 10x20 lathe that weighs 4000 lbs, and a 12x48 that MAYBE cracks 500….

Same for mills.

It’s either time or money. You can find GOOD machines for very little money with some time, effort and a little help from friends. You should be able to find a great machine in both categories for a grand or less each, fairly quickly.

Tooling is cheap these days… has been for a while. No, not gonna find a taper attachment, cherrying head, and other exotic USELESS things for cheap. But what ya need is pretty affordable these days. Lathe bits (including carbide insert), end mills, clamp kits, measuring stuff, all easy and affordable.

I got all the attachments required to make turbine blades on a Kearney and Trecker 2H Universal horizontal mill… yay. Never gonna use them.

Best thing you can do is learn about phase converters. Now 3 phase stuff is usable and practically free. You can build a NICE rotary phase converter for a couple hundred. Cookbook electrics. If you can follow a line on a schematic and crimp on a connector, you’re good to go. Remember to clench your teeth when testing so you don’t bite your tongue… just sayin.

saw a Cincy 0-8 vertical mill on eBay recently for $800.00. AMAZING machine. You would NEVER know it without consulting some AVID amateur machine nut, whom you now kinda sorta know…. Nudge nudge…. I got the callsign… er internet bulletin board handle, honestly.

If I rent a storage unit, I feel compelled to set up a lathe and mill. Gonna put a Clausing 12x36 lathe (predecessor to the 5900) and a Index 40 mill in my hangar. In case I gotta make a washer in between the thick and thin AN ones…

Tools
 
mondtster said:
Generally speaking, the single phase, manual mills and lathes will be the highest price because the number of people looking for that sort of machine is the greatest. If you got into three phase/CNC stuff you generally get a lot more machine for the money spent. Make sure whatever you end up with isn’t worn out or simply junk. A couple of years ago the company I work for bought a new imported lathe and mill and they’re both so bad that they’re not even worth using. For my personal projects I just end up going over to my buddy’s machine shop and use his tools or ask one of his guys to make me things I need made. It’s less convenient but far cheaper and better because he already has everything I need.

Tooling will always be the biggest problem. You’ll probably spend at least the purchase price over again just to get enough stuff to get by for doing small/simple jobs.
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My Milling Machine/Lathe in the garage friend rebuilt a Bridgeport and Jet lathe for his "shop". He didn't have 3-phase power so bought a variable speed 3 phase inverter for the Bridgeport. He accidently stumbled onto what he says was the best upgrade/modification he every made to the Mill. The 3-phase variable speed controllers are cheap and it is awesome to just turn the dial to set the speed of the Mill. It also has braking and reversing built into the controller just push the button and turn the dial to the speed he wants. He almost never changes gears on the Mill. He liked it so much he found a 3 phase motor for the lathe and added the same 3 phase controller to it as well.
Even talked me into picking up a $50 3 phase motor off Craig's list and a $100 controller off of Ebay/Amazon and installing them on my HarborFreight Drill press.

Brian
 
Called VFDs, variable frequency drives. They make smaller ones that not only make 3 phase out of single phase, but also transform 110v to 220v.

Agreed, WONDERFUL little buggers. I got some up to about 15hp.
 
It all depends on what you're after. You've asked a loaded question and it's like "What plane do I want" and not given much detail beyond that. Narrow down your mission and budget.

-How much working space do you need?
-Do you need to be able to do single point threading?
-What horsepower? (I.e how much do you want to be able to hog off, this is important for manual equipment since multiple passes = more TIME spend going back and forth)
-How much run-out?
-Any special projects that will require special tooling?
-Need a DRO or are you good with manual dials?
-Are you good to set one up/refurbish one or are you going to want something ready-to-go?
 
brcase said:
My Milling Machine/Lathe in the garage friend rebuilt a Bridgeport and Jet lathe for his "shop". He didn't have 3-phase power so bought a variable speed 3 phase inverter for the Bridgeport. He accidently stumbled onto what he says was the best upgrade/modification he every made to the Mill. The 3-phase variable speed controllers are cheap and it is awesome to just turn the dial to set the speed of the Mill. It also has braking and reversing built into the controller just push the button and turn the dial to the speed he wants. He almost never changes gears on the Mill. He liked it so much he found a 3 phase motor for the lathe and added the same 3 phase controller to it as well.
Even talked me into picking up a $50 3 phase motor off Craig's list and a $100 controller off of Ebay/Amazon and installing them on my HarborFreight Drill press.

Brian
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The converters have gotten a lot cheaper now than what I remember them being 20 years ago. It has made 3 phase machines viable for garage use. The 3 phase machines still seem to take a price hit, which is nice for those who either have 3 phase power or are willing get a phase converter.
 
I sort of wanted a mill and lathe for years, no specific projects in mind but I knew they'd be useful. Both of them I bought used when I happened on a good deal cheap... first a Jet benchtop mill including lots of tooling, later an Atlas 6x18 lathe also with lots of tooling. Then there's the power hacksaw and 1920s vintage bandsaw... Now I don't know what I'd do without them. They're all small machines but I make mostly small stuff.

https://www.hobby-machinist.com is a good resource.
 
no clue, but subscribing. those two things have been on my wish list for a long time.
 
I’ve got a little Atlas 618 too… love that little guy. First project I made was a little square thread 4 jaw chuck bolt for itself…

I was busy asking around on forums where I could get one as I was restoring it… some dude was like, “you got a lathe, so…?” Duh, worked great!
 
Appreciate the responses in here, there are some good things. I hadn't looked at eBay, and did find some interesting things there, although nothing particularly close. Some way, way overkill machines around 400 miles away that I might consider buying if they were closer.

I think if you look at the machine, I don't need very much length of motion. I'd be looking at things for my shop, nothing too huge. Not interested in working on gun barrels or the like. As far as swing goes, that's something where probably bigger is better, but I think I'd want at least 10" just thinking about a few things that come to mind and having some overkill to go with it.

What am I looking at? Mostly hobby stuff. Level of precision probably doesn't need to be super high and I won't use it that much, so having it take longer to do something doesn't bother me so much. Doesn't necessarily need to be turn key, and my shop has 200A service going to it, so plenty of power there. 3-phase doesn't scare me, as noted above I can just do an adapter. DRO would be nice just for better accuracy, but overall fine with manual dials, especially in my price range.
 
From my shopping, and zero experience, I've picked up a couple of things:

Some used equipment may not have flat ways. Similar problems for some import equipment.
Some people are more religious about used US vs new import than pilots are about tailwheel or wing location.
I don't think DRO for a mill is about accuracy, as much as it is ease of use and reduction of mistakes. Or reduced PITA factor.
DRO lathes exist, but I don't think I've seen anyone use one.
Having enough Z travel to have working space between tool and part with vice/clamps is a real thing.
Legend has it you will spend more on tooling than the machine, for a mill anyway.
 
A little Sheldon, Clausing, South Bend, Rockwell…

Generally stay away from the little Asian 9x20s. They require a skill all their own to make run well… others may disagree.

Generally stay away from square way lathes (this includes my beloved little Atlas). Just a tad too light duty. I’d violate this pretty quick for the right machine.

Bad shape (needing refurbishing) is fine, but complete is a must. Buy a solid chunk of complete rust before a well lubed parts donor…. Been down both these roads a few times.

Mills are tougher. A nice old Bridgeport M head would fill the bill nicely.

A really worn mill is FRUSTRATING. I’d opt for a little horizontal before that. Horizontals are cheap and STOUT.

Asian mill/drills are pretty low on my list. There’s A LOT of Bridgeport knockoffs that are amazing.

12,000 lb #5s are cheap…. Just sayin…. You’ll be the only kid in the neighborhood with one.

Keep us up to date! Have fun in the search!
 
Verify the thickness of your concrete and requirements for the machines if you're going really big too.
 
Albany Tom said:
I don't think DRO for a mill is about accuracy, as much as it is ease of use and reduction of mistakes. Or reduced PITA factor.
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:yeahthat:
DROs are a fairly easy and inexpensive retrofit. No more counting turns. I added iGaging DROs to my mill early on. They're particularly helpful on an old machine with backlash in the lead screws like mine.
 
I'm not an expert. I wouldn't even call myself a hobbyist. I'm more of a "desperation" machinist. I'm usually trying to repair things rather than fabricate, so I don't use my machines as much as I thought I would. Often the time to acquire the materials & tools and set up a job is worth more than just buying a replacement part. Occasionally however there are things that just can't be done any other way. A couple of the things I learned the hard way, wrong or right:
IMG_20221026_070920812.jpg

I bought my lathe at an auction when i had no idea what I was doing beyond "I want a lathe". What I ended up with was a '40's model Hendey cone head. It's a good, solid machine, and way bigger than I need, but will still do small parts. The cone head isn't too much of an issue as it's easy to change speeds. The bigger issue is that it is a plain bearing unit, so it can't turn very fast. If I was doing it again today, I'd buy something a little newer, smaller, and with ball bearings. I got several lifetimes worth of tooling with it, but a lot of it is too big even for this machine. I also had to completely disassemble it to clean out 80 years worth of dirt and sludge so I could get some oil to the bearings.

IMG_20221026_070947462.jpg

The Bridgeport actually sees a LOT more use than the lathe. It was similarly a basket case when I bought it. I actually got it and a 9" gear drive lathe that I sold. In hindsight it would've been a better fit for the type of work i do, but at the time I thought I wanted the bed length and swing of the Hendey. The sale of the lathe made the mill essentially free, but it was in rough shape. It's still not 100%, and there's a lot of slop in it, but it pretty well does what I need it to. The tightness of the ways is the number one thing to look for. These machines can be re-scraped, but it's cost-prohibitive for obvious reasons. I'd like to put a DRO on it, but I'm not sure I use it enough to justify the effort, especially since most of my jobs don't require much precision. Even a worn out machine like this can do decent work if you take the time to get it squared up properly and mind the backlash. One thing I did right was buy a really good Kurt vise. That and a set of parallels will do 95% of the fixturing you need to do. Again, I got to take this machine completely apart and clean out all the grease from years of people not understanding that they need oil, not grease.

IMG_20221026_070937202.jpg IMG_20221026_071012406.jpg

These pictures didn't turn out great but you'll get the idea. The mill is a 3 phase, non-variable speed model. One of the smartest things I ever did was set up this electronic converter. It will vary the frequency to the motor based on the rheostat on the mill to give me electronic variable speed without having the change the belt. I still use the high/low lever as the motor obviously doesn't produce much torque at the low frequencies/speeds. Works slick.

The power really isn't an issue. As you can see, the single/three phase thing just isn't a problem anymore. Both machines are running on the same 30A breaker. The lathe is 3HP and the mill is 1. I could use a little more power on the mill, especially with the variable freq. drive. 3HP on a lathe is enough to do anything unless you're rebuilding locomotives. I have a 4K lb forklift that will pick up both these machines, but only just. They reside in my office as it's climate controlled, so i was a bit worried about the floor, having no idea how thick it is, but they haven't produced any cracks in 6 years here. Rust is the enemy of all machines, but especially these guys. I don't remember if your shop is climate controlled, but that's a consideration, particularly if they go months between uses as mine do.
 
Some more good info and ideas in here, thanks. I'd say that I'm more or less in the "I want a mill/lathe" category, but a hair beyond that since I have some specific items and uses in mind. I'll keep on looking and see what I can find...
 
Tools said:
Gonna put a Clausing 12x36 lathe (predecessor to the 5900) and a Index 40 mill in my hangar. In case I gotta make a washer in between the thick and thin AN ones…

Tools
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LOL! My favorite quip is we sometimes spend an hour on the lathe at my uncle's shop making a 5 cent washer, just because, you know, driving 10 minutes to the hardware store is such a hassle. :p
 
catmandu said:
LOL! My favorite quip is we sometimes spend an hour on the lathe at my uncle's shop making a 5 cent washer, just because, you know, driving 10 minutes to the hardware store is such a hassle. :p
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Why spend 50 bucks on a part when you can spend 8 hours and 100 bucks to make it yourself? :)
 
Yes, I spent thousands on machines and tooling so I can save hundreds on parts.
 
There also looks like there's a bunch of redundant stuff you could sell and get some of the 3K back. Also, if it's truly a machine shop going out of business, you might get a bunch of tooling as well, which would save you the additional 3K you'd spend on tooling once you got it home!
 
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