Thinking About a Boat

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by Ted DuPuis, Aug 19, 2014.

  1. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    I'll check out iboats, thanks! Also on Club Sea Ray, but haven't been on there in years since our boat has just been dead reliable.
     
  2. jmp470

    jmp470 Line Up and Wait

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    Sorry to kinda high jack your topic, but, it is very much of interest to me. I have not flown in years, after I sold my Cirrus Sr20 and miss it. However, there are 5 of us in the family and my mind has been wandering. Thus, topic creep!

    For a Sr22, I can buy a Fountaine 47' sail boat, here: http://www.fountainepajot.com.au/sail-range/new-47/

    For the life of me, I'm having trouble getting excited about aviation because of 5 people and our love to travel.

    I'm leaning more toward buying the boat and putting it into Charter service! Anyone do that?
     
  3. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    No threadjack at all. :)

    I understand your sentiment. We're also a family of 5, but we have the 414 now. The problem is that it's expensive enough to operate that it ends up limiting the amount we use it. There are places we want to go, but there's enough cost involved that the reality is we don't travel for personal reasons much.

    I have friends who've put their sailboat onto charter and seemed to enjoy it. I think some of the question is what you want to do. If that's the kind of boating you want, then it might make more sense. We're more the trailer boat sorts, but if you buy one of those and put it up for charter... :)

    Another consideration might be a partnership. Like planes, boats usually don't get enough utilization to actually justify individual use. That's especially true with boats like that that are mostly for vacation purposes.
     
  4. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator En-Route

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    Lol, well that is a new direction for the thread! I've only been on a sailboat once, chartered, and it was only for the afternoon in the Bahamas. The sailboat you linked looks like a pretty nice rig, so I would assume you could want to cater to a clientele that would keep it as such. The boats I've seen in charter use are usually very purpose-built boats with few frills and mundane appearance, not to mention having to have a crew/safety training which would go with operating a charter service. I'll default to others who might chime in, but I'd imagine chartering a sailboat without talking with some experts in the field might be a good way to ruin a nice boat and make you hate sailing altogether!
     
  5. jmp470

    jmp470 Line Up and Wait

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    I'm running the options now. Instead of an airplane and beach house, we would combine it into 1 and charter it for 22 weeks a year. This could offset the cost of the boat, just like putting the beach house in VRBO. The problem I see is, the charter season is around my kids vacation time.

    But, Ted I'm leaning more towards the boat, as an airplane depends more on others and doesn't offer true freedom. You need a runway, fuel, etc. Whereas the sail boat we can spend the summer on, going along the coasts.

    Slap solar panels on it, do some hydroponic farming on it and call it good!!!
     
  6. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    I think you hit the problem with charters - it's most popular the times that you'd want to use it, too. That's why I've tended to buy things rather than rent. Plus, I almost always buy used and do my own work, which saves us a bunch of money. If you don't end up in that camp and buying new (or at least newer than me) is the way you go, then a charter/rental might make more sense.
     
  7. dell30rb

    dell30rb Final Approach

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    The F150 w ecoboost is a towing beast. My boat + trailer weighs around 8000lbs and I can set the cruise at 70mph, 1800 rpm, burns regular gas. Makes 90% of its rated 420ftlbs torque at 1700rpm

    A diesel would be better obviously but I did not want to daily drive a 2500 diesel, not to mention the extra cost for one and the maintenance. The f150 is a very comfortable daily driver.

    The 2017 F150 will have 470ftlbs and a 10 speed tranny
     
  8. jmp470

    jmp470 Line Up and Wait

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    I concur, you can save a couple hundred thousand buying used. The problem is, you eat all the costs, whereas, new and in charter it can potentially make money. Plus, the tax write off's. So I need to weight it out. But, I do concur with your practice.
     
  9. dell30rb

    dell30rb Final Approach

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    The problem with a sailboat is that they're slow and if you want to do any kind of traveling with them you need 2 weeks to really get anywhere and back.

    Dad has a 43'. I owned a 30' for quite some time. I work in an office and get 3 weeks vacation and that is not enough time to utilize a sailboat. To me they are awesome if you have the time because you can travel far and wide on very little money. But if you only have a week here and there to sail, you are much better off flying somewhere and chartering. There have been years where we spent more time on a chartered boat than my dad's 43'

    I think if you time it right, conch charters has 47' boats for under 3k/week in the BVI's.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2016
  10. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    I've heard good things about the Ecoboost, and I also know that the more modern 1/2-tons have come a long way. For the price point we'd be looking at (roughly $10k), we can buy a ~10 year old 3/4 or 1-ton diesel just fine but an Ecoboost would still be out of budget. I actually prefer driving a 2500/3500 truck and daily drove one for years, so for me going to one is a positive, not a negative. I miss driving the things.

    I agree with your points as well. I'm in the bracket where buying cheap, turning wrenches myself, etc. is the way to go and also the only option that allows me to do the things I want to do. If I were in a bracket where I could buy new and depreciate, leaseback, etc. with success, I would consider it.
     
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  11. jmp470

    jmp470 Line Up and Wait

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    I agree, that's why I'm doing my research and going slow.

    I grew up on both in New England and cherish memories of both equally. So I have to decide how do I want to play it with my kids.

    Do I want a power boat for the lake, sail boat for the ocean. Or go RV or airplane.

    Innovation in aircraft is snail pace, if we could get off lead, I would be happier.

    The fact that I can buy one is already way above how I grew up. I worked in a marina for a friends father. I scrubbed bottoms and sanded wood, just to play on the boats.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2016
  12. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator En-Route

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    I've got a 2008 SuperCrew F-150 with the 5.4L/4-spd auto. It's a fantastic truck, which was a DD for 120K, but is now on just towing/weekend project duty. The EB V6 wasn't available at that point or I might have gone that route, especially with the 6speed tranny they debuted in 2009. However, I really have no complaints because my truck had been dead reliable from day 1 and still drives/looks like new.

    If I were going to get a different truck, I'd probably find an F-250/350 diesel with the 6.7L and call it good. I wouldn't likely buy another truck for many decades when using it just as a weekend vehicle.


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    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2016
  13. dell30rb

    dell30rb Final Approach

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    Nice truck.

    If anyone wants to make that Abacos trip sometime its very GA friendly, affordable and boaters paradaise. PM me I will be happy to talk more about it.
     
  14. FormerHangie

    FormerHangie Pattern Altitude

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    Power boat for the lake, charter a sailboat once a year in some nice cruising grounds.
     
  15. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    The RV thing has its appeals as well.

    I find that I'm just someone who loves all forms of travel. There's no reason why you need to pick one and just have that be it, you can go through different phases or figure out ways to enjoy multiple types. One of my cousins just bought an RV at age 50. I'd never figured him for an RV type, but it's a new type of vacationing for him and his wife, and he's enjoying it.
     
  16. Aaronk25

    Aaronk25 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Ya mean a 270 sundancer just like mine? With twin 4.3 210hp a side, generator and A.C.? With a new aluminum triple axle? IMG_1609.JPG

    Great boat. 46mph top end. But cruise at 30mph on 7.7gph a side!


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  17. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    Why yes, that's exactly what I was talking about. :)

    What other PIREPs can you give me about it? Curious of your thoughts. What year? What's cruise like if you get it down a bit further? We mostly cruise the lake at around 20 MPH in our 230CC. No idea of the exact fuel burn, but it seems fairly low.
     
  18. Aaronk25

    Aaronk25 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Since there isn't many twins out there I had to start from scratch selecting the perfect props. The factory selected 3 blades 14" diameter 19pitch slipped to much below 32mph with 6 pax. After trying 4 sets of props ended up with turning point 4 blade 17p stainless. 45mph but will hold plane down to 22mph now. It's pretty awesome what the right set of props can do. Fuel burn drops off to at 22mph but mpg is about the same, approximately.

    I have 2 friends that have the single 454 with bravo 3 outdrive (2 counter rotating props on same shaft). There and shift a bit more precisely but if the boat sat I the water the bravo 3 is very corrosion prone and cost about $9,000 to replace. The twin alpha out drives can be replaced though SEI engineering for about $1,500 a piece.

    The twins run about 7-8mph faster, plane about 40% faster, but like anything there are 2 of everything....you know the drill.

    If your getting a boat with a toilet system make sure to get one with a vaccuflush toilet not the pump handles. There is no odor in the cabin and simple to maintain. A broken pooper is a bad week.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]


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  19. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Do twin boats use counter-rotating props?
     
  20. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Final Approach

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    Twin 4.3's is probably a nice setup. Our 21' bowrider has the 4.3MPI, good little engine. At 3000 it's very quiet, sips (relatively) fuel, and we maintain 28-30mph depending on loading and lake state.
     
  21. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    Depends on the boat, just like with planes. Some boats also have contra-rotating props - single outdrive with two props spinning opposite directions.

    Twin 4.3s appeals to me for the reasons @Aaronk25 pointed out above.
     
  22. Aaronk25

    Aaronk25 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Yes the twin 4.3 are counter rotating. Unlike aircraft engines the engines spin the same direction (RH) but they change the prop direction in the out drive gearing.

    Bill sounds like our boats are identical as far as rpm vs speed at cruise power.

    The one thing about the twin v6 is they are very quiet where the same boat with the single 454 is really loud. It create a lot of intake noise and I'm not sure why but it sounds like it's working hard.


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  23. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator En-Route

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    The only thing I shudder about with twins in a 8'6" beam boat is working on them. Have you have any problem with access for maintenance or repairs? I've seen a few 27'ers like this with twin V6s AND a genset. It's one cramped engine bay and I can't imagine having to try any do anything major without pulling the engine out just to get to something on the back side of the engine/transom.

    It was common back in the 80's on sterndrives to have one drive standard and the other drive with reverse rotation (both single props) to offset the torque-effect. As time went on, most manufacturers have just moved over to the contra-rotating outdrives which have 2-props on each unit. Like Aaron mentioned, on smaller engines (v6s) they still employ the old method. Going to the Bravo 3/Volvo DuoProp does a few things: first and foremost it mostly eliminates the torque-effect, which helps a ton at low speed (docking/maneuvering), but it also has much improved hole-shot to help get on plane since you have effectively doubled the prop surface-area (not quite, but close-enough).

    Generally, with modern boats in the 27'-29' range, if they have a single engine, it's a big-block engine with a Bravo III/DuoProp drive. If it's small engine twins, they use the Alpha drives with one being reverse rotation. If it's large twins, the use two Bravo III/DuoProp drives.

    Fun fact: on older twin-engine boats with a true inboard setup (prior to having reverse rotation outdrives), they actually had reverse-rotation engines which had different internals (cams/distributor, etc.) in order to run backwards. You had to be careful when buying parts for your engines because the pool of parts for reverse rotation engines was much smaller.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2016
  24. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    Regarding the noise, I've felt like the 350 makes more noise than it should. I'm not sure how much of it is engine itself, but I've thought about putting some sound insulation on the engine cover to make it quieter.
     
  25. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    @Aaronk25 do you do overnights on the boat? How do you like it for that job?

    I posted the question on iBoats and the general consensus seems t o be that I'm looking too small for what I want to do.
     
  26. Aaronk25

    Aaronk25 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Lots of good info above.

    The 270 sundancer is a 9'2" beam so it gives more room for working on engines. The good thing about v6 vs twin 5.0 v8 which are a option in a 280 sundancer is that the engines are still serviceable as the v6 is shorter so you can reach over it or under the exhaust manifolds. Because you can't get between the out side exhaust manifolds and the side of the boat.

    I'm heading to the boat in a few hours and I'll upload a picture of where the generator sits.

    Looking at the pic I posted of the engines you would never guess there is a generator in there as it sits just forward of the hatch about where I was standing when taking the pic. If your in the bilge looking at the engines do a 180 turn and your staring at the generator. If it didn't have a generator it would just be empty space.


    I wonder about how easy it is to work on the 7.4 v8 with a generator as the genny still sits in front of the motor but because these are 27' boats and not 30 somthingings the engine rooms are shorter. My guess is it would be ok, but you would end up standing on the side of the motor instead of in front of it.


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  27. Aaronk25

    Aaronk25 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I do overnights but it's just 2 of us. One thing that's for sure is the older early 90s 270 were a lot bigger boat. I think with a couple small kids it would be ok but when they get to 12 or so it would be tight. If it's a week a year it's fine but if it's a sleep over fri and sat every week you might want a bigger boat.

    The thing I do like is it's about the biggest boat that can be trailered, almost legally. At 9'2" it's over the 8'6" however it looks legal when viewed from the rear as the 9'2" dimension is at the rub rails but where the hull meet the sides it's 2" inside of the fenders so it looks legal. I towed from mn to Florida and back this past February with no permits and didn't even get a stare.

    Don't get me wrong I came out of a 2000 340 sundancer which is a heck of a boat but for a 27' boat they did a overall good job.


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  28. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Which one gets more use/hours?
     
  29. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Express cruisers in that size range seem to use mostly sterndrives. Fishing boats in that size seem to be mostly outboards. Any particular reason for that?
     
  30. dell30rb

    dell30rb Final Approach

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    Ted regarding the sound insulation you should definitely use some!

    I re-did mine (engine cover access box) with some good stuff from McMaster Carr and it made a big difference. Most boats come from the factor with it.

    McMaster part 5692T13

    (1" thick easy clean foam)

    You can buy it w the adhesive back, or use 3M spray adhesive
     
  31. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    Yeah, we have no sound insulation now, just the carpet. The noise when under way is significantly more than I'd like, even at lower RPM.

    If we decide to keep this boat, I'll plan to add some for next season. I think the question is whether an upgrade would get what we want out of it. If we wouldn't, then it makes sense to just do some more work to this boat to improve the deck, quiet the engine, etc.
     
  32. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator En-Route

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    Entirely dependent on type of use. Fishing trawlers use pure inboards which have the props under the boat and are generally non-planing hulls . Offshore center-console style boats often have outboards because they are planing hulls and may be used in shallower operations. It also allows for better all-season operation because you don't have to worry about outboards having water freeze in the cooling system (since they are self-draining every time you shut them off). There are a lot more options for outboard power, including models geared exclusively for use in salt-water. Express cruisers generally use inboards or inboard-outboards (sterndrives), but there are a few models that utilize outboards if you really want them.

    Check this out: Searay 370 Venture with twin outboards . . . you'd never know it by looking at it.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  33. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Final Approach

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    OK, that's slick! I think I have a new boat to lust after. And, being able to fully trim the engines out of water, it would be a good loop boat I think.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2016
  34. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    It seems to me like the I/O (sterndrive) setup is a compromise that has a lot of negatives like hard to remove, not too great efficiency, having to winterize, etc. but the positives being lowish costs, easy parts, etc. I'm overall happy with it.
     
  35. SoonerAviator

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    Actually, the major compromise with the sterndrive is weight and size. They are as efficient as most any other drive setup, and generally more efficient in cruising due to being able to "lift" the aft portion of the boat with trim and thus reduce drag. Inboards have no method of trim, so they can't optimize the line of thrust for a given speed. Jet drives are inefficient by their very nature, although they usually beat out other options in acceleration. Outboards are great about keeping everything in one small package, but they are extremely expensive and have limitations on HP (300-350HP) without getting ridiculous race-bred versions. I/O's can run higher HP/torque without much weight increase. Many options out there for 300+HP V8 + Bravo 3 outdrive for less than $15K new, where a 300HP outboard is well over $20K. Running a pair of I/O's saves you over $10K in purchase cost, not to mention the fact that the HP ceiling is much higher on the I/Os simply due to available displacement.

    The I/O's have the crux of using a bellows to serve as a seal between the boat hull and the outdrive, which can be a problem for maintenance, and for leaving a boat in the water full-time as a leak could develop. Inboards and outboards don't have that problem, and of course the cold weather freezing aspect of many inboards and I/Os. A bilge heater or quick draining closed-cooling system mitigated most of that risk though.
     
  36. Aaronk25

    Aaronk25 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    If I could have twin out boards on the 270 sundancer id take it in a second! The only down side is fuel efficiency is lower at cruise setting, even with direct injection due to smaller displacement and higher rpms but man think how much bigger the aft cabin and storage compartments would be!


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  37. dell30rb

    dell30rb Final Approach

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    I/O's are bad if you leave them in the water all the time. Lots of extra maintenance if you do that. If its a lift or trailered boat, they do alright.

    The duo-prop contra rotating setups are very efficient. I have one and get 2.5 nmpg at 25kts with a 300hp vortec 5.7 V8 that has a 4 barrel holley carb. The boat holds 118 gallons
     
  38. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator En-Route

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    Absolutely. It makes a lot of sense in the lower size ranges to run with outboards, especially with setups like that Sea Ray above where it hides the engines and gives you a sunpad just like the I/Os would have. When you get to a certain length/displacement, the outboards make less sense as running 3-250HP outboards instead of two 425HP I/Os gets complex and really expensive.
     
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  39. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    Do you have a fuel flow gauge? If so, which one?

    My guestimate was around 3 MPG when I ran the numbers (I forget if that was NMPG or SMPG) at about 25 MPH. But that's the standard 260 HP Mercruiser with a Quadrajet.
     
  40. Aaronk25

    Aaronk25 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    [​IMG]

    This is for the 98-2001 efi throttle bodies is expect the 2002 v6 to current mpi would do 5% better.


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