Thinking About a Boat

[Bill]

Yeah, it usually comes down to how you will really use the boat. I prefer camping analogies: Sedan bridges are great if you want a weekend getaway for a family of 4-5 and want to have a "5th wheel camper on the water". Express cruisers in the 29-34' range are a bit more cramped and feel like a smaller "bumper-pull camper", doable for a weekend but you will want to spend most of your time outside above deck. The 26'-28' "pocket cruisers" are like a pop-up camper/tent, doable for an overnight preferably with 2 adults and 2 small kids, but you won't want to be below deck for anything other than sleeping.

My ideal situation would go like this:

Get 3-4 families together and buy a nice large sedan bridge or express cruiser in a partnership. In the case of four, everyone gets one weekend a month on the lake and at least 1 full week a year. Everybody keeps their little bowriders, and the caveat is the others can raft up with the mother ship to hang out when they're out. Then you have the little fun fast boats, for tubing, wakreboard, etc.

Yeah, ideal, but it can work.

 

[weilke]

There is no cruiser (maybe the pocket cruisers) that makes skiing/tubing much fun. They are heavy, cumbersome in handling and acceleration, and toss a huge wake. Those are all non-starters for skiing, and aside from the wake, not much fun for tubing. You'll be burning a ton of fuel doing it as well. Can you pull skiers behind one? Sure. It is just far from ideal.

It's not different than aircraft in that there's no one aircraft that manages to do all things well. You have to make sacrifices to obtain the things you think are most important. Perfect world: you have a sedan bridge or MY, a runabout/ski boat, a fishing rig, and a jet ski, lol. We have 3 of the 4.

The only boats I consistently see away from the dock or being launched at the ramps are 21-25ft fishing boats (CCs, walkabouts etc.) . Maybe it is different with inland lakes, but most boat owners seem to over-estimate what they need or how much time they can actually put into the hobby.

 

[Ted]

It's not different than aircraft in that there's no one aircraft that manages to do all things well. You have to make sacrifices to obtain the things you think are most important. Perfect world: you have a sedan bridge or MY, a runabout/ski boat, a fishing rig, and a jet ski, lol. We have 3 of the 4.

That's a good assessment. Our 23' cuddy cabin works well for skiing/tubing, has a place to nap if needed. I don't care about fishing and we could fish from this boat well enough if we so chose. Our son has expressed some interest and we do have a great lake for fishing.

Last year we used the boat a great deal - had it out 10 times before we moved about this time last year and didn't go out at all after that (too busy with moving). This year we've only used it 3 times so far but I think that number will increase during the remaining season.

The only boats I consistently see away from the dock or being launched at the ramps are 21-25ft fishing boats (CCs, walkabouts etc.) . Maybe it is different with inland lakes, but most boat owners seem to over-estimate what they need or how much time they can actually put into the hobby.

Boats, like planes, I think are typically relatively low use items. At the lake we went to in Ohio, we did see some of the larger ones (mostly house boats) out regularly. Here it seems like we're on the large end of the normal crowd, with fishing boats being more common. That said, this is a great lake for fishing and there are other lakes that I think are preferred by the boat camping types.

 

[SoonerAviator]

The bigger cruisers on our lake 40'-50' don't leave the docks much, except maybe on the big 3 weekends each year. Most usually stay attached to shore power 24/7 and serve as weekend retreats, no different than owning a lakefront home, and tax deductible just the same as any other mortgage. We see a fair amount of the 26-34' cruisers on the summer weekends, but the lake isn't thick with them like on the 3 big weekends. Our lake is mainly 20'-26' bowriders and go-fast boats on the weekends, with pontoons and bass rockets during the weekdays. It's generally too rough for most of the hobby fishermen and such during the summer weekends.

 

[Bill]

Our lake can be quite crowded, and the big boys aren't afraid to burn gas, lots of big boats on the move. Along with their 3ft high rolling wakes, too.

 

[Ted]

The bigger cruisers on our lake 40'-50' don't leave the docks much, except maybe on the big 3 weekends each year. Most usually stay attached to shore power 24/7 and serve as weekend retreats, no different than owning a lakefront home, and tax deductible just the same as any other mortgage. We see a fair amount of the 26-34' cruisers on the summer weekends, but the lake isn't thick with them like on the 3 big weekends. Our lake is mainly 20'-26' bowriders and go-fast boats on the weekends, with pontoons and bass rockets during the weekdays. It's generally too rough for most of the hobby fishermen and such during the summer weekends.

I've heard folks buy the bigger boats and can't afford the gas for them, so they never leave the dock. For me, the whole point would be to not be a the dock, but out on the lake, but it also depends on how you use the thing.

 

[SoonerAviator]

I've heard folks buy the bigger boats and can't afford the gas for them, so they never leave the dock. For me, the whole point would be to not be a the dock, but out on the lake, but it also depends on how you use the thing.

True, but many of the cruiser-owners customize their docks with benches, lights, plants, tables, etc. and they have a makeshift neighborhood community where everyone sits and visits with each other. So, I can see both sides of it, if you just want a place on the water. I'd be leaving the dock more times than not, though, if even just to run the engines/genset for a bit.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Our lake can be quite crowded, and the big boys aren't afraid to burn gas, lots of big boats on the move. Along with their 3ft high rolling wakes, too.

That's why we have a jet ski so we can take advantage of those 3' rollers!

 

[Ted]

True, but many of the cruiser-owners customize their docks with benches, lights, plants, tables, etc. and they have a makeshift neighborhood community where everyone sits and visits with each other. So, I can see both sides of it, if you just want a place on the water. I'd be leaving the dock more times than not, though, if even just to run the engines/genset for a bit.

Good point. Definitely depends on your goal, and I could see people who are more about the social aspect wanting to stay docked and have parties at the dock. We're introverts who tend to just want to sit and spend time together or with our friends (who are on the boat with us) rather than have a community/party. Get away from the dock, go find a place to swim/sit, pull the tube/skis, etc.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Good point. Definitely depends on your goal, and I could see people who are more about the social aspect wanting to stay docked and have parties at the dock. We're introverts who tend to just want to sit and spend time together or with our friends (who are on the boat with us) rather than have a community/party. Get away from the dock, go find a place to swim/sit, pull the tube/skis, etc.

At one time we had the waterfront lakehouse, the ski boat, the jet ski, and the bass boat. My father got pretty hot on a search for a 30'-32' cruiser but we couldn't find one without a radar arch to as to squeeze under a low bridge which separated our small arm of the lake from the rest main lake. We've since downsized all but the ski boat and jet ski, and I haven't had the jet ski out in 2 years. We'd still love to get a cruiser at some point, put it in at the Port of Catoosa here in Tulsa, and make our way down through the lock & dam system all the way to the gulf.

 

[Ted]

At one time we had the waterfront lakehouse, the ski boat, the jet ski, and the bass boat. My father got pretty hot on a search for a 30'-32' cruiser but we couldn't find one without a radar arch to as to squeeze under a low bridge which separated our small arm of the lake from the rest main lake. We've since downsized all but the ski boat and jet ski, and I haven't had the jet ski out in 2 years. We'd still love to get a cruiser at some point, put it in at the Port of Catoosa here in Tulsa, and make our way down through the lock & dam system all the way to the gulf.

I'd love a jetski, but I view that as happening when the kids get big enough that they can ride on one too. So that puts it probably another few years in the future (son turns 4 in October). It also complicates getting to and from the lake since then we'd need to tow the boat and the jetskis.

 

[pigpenracing]

We are going to raise hell this weekend! Boat Saturday at Conroe and jet ski Sunday at Somerville To hot in Texas for anything else fun. The whole family enjoys the lake.

 

[Bill]

Damn, Pig, that's a hell of a boat! How fast does it go?

 

[Ted]

@pigpenracing what age did you start your son on the jetski?

Same question for anyone else with kids and jetskis.

 

[jesse]

@pigpenracing what age did you start your son on the jetski?

Same question for anyone else with kids and jetskis.

I remember going for rides on them from about 5 years old and up. Pretty sure I never solo'd one until I was 13 or so but can't remember. Family never owned any lake stuff so all my exposure was from family friends during the younger years. If the family would have had one then I'm sure I'd have been on them younger. Considering how I was riding with my dad on his lap in single seat crop dusters before I turned 1...

I'd personally have no concerns taking about any kid with a life jacket around for a ride on one. It's very easy to be conservative on them.

 

[FormerHangie]

My wife's cousin has a lake house, all the kids are lake rats. They started riding with an adult at about age 4, but didn't ride by themselves until well into their teens. In the state of Georgia, a PWC operator has to be at least 12 and have passed a boat operator's course, so check your state laws.

I'd guess most kids would be comfortable taking a PWC out in protected waters by about age 14.

 

[pigpenracing]

We have a lake 5 minutes from the house but never had anything to put in the water. A few years ago it was so hot I told the family I was getting something to put in the damn water the next summer. First I bought a Jet ski then a fee months later a boat. My son was driving the jet ski at 11 and didn't have any issues. The first one was a new 2014 modified Yamaha supercharged Fzs. That is the fastest one that year. I trusted my son because he had been on high performance dirtbikes since he was really small. He got his first Yamaha 50 with training wheels when he turned 2.
As for the boat it is a Baja outlaw 29 with twin 454's. It cruises about 62 mph at 4000 Rpms. It will run about 75 with 1 person.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Yeah, I was driving boats at age 8-10. Jet ski not too long after that, probably solo around 12 I'd imagine. It really just has to do with the maturity of the kid and their awareness of the boating rules, as well as the local regulations on minimum age to ride alone. Outside of boating rule knowledge, the other item of equal concern for me would be their ability to correct an overturned jet ski if they roll it. Some can be easy, others (especially the big 3-seaters) should be rolled back upright in a certain direction and it may take significant weight to do it. I've ridden some older Polaris and Yamahas that could be righted simply be torquing on it from the rear using arm strength. Our Kawasaki required me to climb up on the overturned hull, grab on to the side rail, and then use my weight to roll the jet ski dropping me back into the water. Consequently, that stability which takes a lot of effort to correct an overturned jet ski makes it pretty difficult to overturn in the first place. So, their ability to react appropriately in an emergency or non-standard situation is of equal-if-not paramount concern.

As far as how old to have children riding as passengers, any age you are comfortable with it fine. As long as they have a life vest and can cope with being submerged underwater briefly it'll be fine. You can ride slow and it's just as fun for them, but there's always the danger of a boat wake upsetting your balance and tipping you if not handled correctly.

 

[Ted]

I remember going for rides on them from about 5 years old and up. Pretty sure I never solo'd one until I was 13 or so but can't remember. Family never owned any lake stuff so all my exposure was from family friends during the younger years. If the family would have had one then I'm sure I'd have been on them younger. Considering how I was riding with my dad on his lap in single seat crop dusters before I turned 1...

I'd personally have no concerns taking about any kid with a life jacket around for a ride on one. It's very easy to be conservative on them.

Makes sense. Not something for this season, but maybe to consider in another season or two. We'll have to fly up and go on the lake with you sometime.

 

[Ted]

The deck seats/cushions could use some redoing on our boat. Right now our boat has two back to back seats/loungers, and then the engine cover with a small seat on each side. Similar to these pictures:

In thinking about redoing it, I'm trying to consider how we could make it better (mostly from a seating perspective). What comes to mind is lengthening the seats on either side of the engine cover to make the engine cover area more or less solid, big enough that someone could lounge on. The beam is 8', so easily enough width for someone to stretch out (perhaps not me).

I'm also thinking about how the driver station could be improved. Two things come to mind (albeit mutually exclusive) - one is that I'd like to have a wider driver's seat so I could sit there with one of the kids or my wife. The other is that I'd like to have a seat that's taller, or else that I can adjust the height on. The former I think probably just won't work, as it would block the door going to the cabin. The latter would involve removing that lounger, and then put a bucket seat on a pedestal. What we could then try to do is extend the bench on the right side to basically make it flat where someone could either lounge, or I could turn the driver's seat around and put my feet up on it (when parked, obviously).

Thoughts? Or is this sort of change just too difficult?

 

[Bill]

Out boat's captain and passenger seats are very similar to these, with a flip up front bolster. Most of the time I sit on it with the bolster flipped up, it puts me high so that I'm not looking through the windshield and my head and upper torso are up in the breeze, very nice on hot days. When it's cool or raining, I flip it down.

http://veada.com/helm-seats/captains-seat-hs400b-with-bolster.html

 

[SoonerAviator]

I'd just go with a single captains chair with flip-up bolster. I've got roughly the same setup as you in my ski boat with the back-to-back lounge chair/sleepers. I have a thick foam cushion I normally sit on or kneel on so that my head stays above the windshield. If you don't mind losing a bit of floor space, you can always replace the starboard seats with a captains chair and an L-shaped lounge extending from just behind the helm and around to the dog house. It would look clean, but you'd want to configure it in such a way that it doesn't block access to any of the deck access hatches you have. If I were ever to re-do my original interior, that's the direction I'd go.

Here's mine:

What I'd go to:

 

[Ted]

Out boat's captain and passenger seats are very similar to these, with a flip up front bolster. Most of the time I sit on it with the bolster flipped up, it puts me high so that I'm not looking through the windshield and my head and upper torso are up in the breeze, very nice on hot days. When it's cool or raining, I flip it down.

http://veada.com/helm-seats/captains-seat-hs400b-with-bolster.html

This is the sort of thing I was thinking. Does the flip-up bolster provide enough to sit comfortably? I'm assuming it would. What features does the pedestal have? Rotate and up/down?

I'd just go with a single captains chair with flip-up bolster. I've got roughly the same setup as you in my ski boat with the back-to-back lounge chair/sleepers. I have a thick foam cushion I normally sit on or kneel on so that my head stays above the windshield. If you don't mind losing a bit of floor space, you can always replace the starboard seats with a captains chair and an L-shaped lounge extending from just behind the helm and around to the dog house. It would look clean, but you'd want to configure it in such a way that it doesn't block access to any of the deck access hatches you have. If I were ever to re-do my original interior, that's the direction I'd go.

The only deck hatch we have is in the center between the left and right side lounger seats. On later model boats, they replaced the left side lounger with just a bench (which raised area by the front for effectively a built-in pillow), and then put a single small bed area below deck underneath that seat. That would be nice from an increased sleeping capacity perspective.

We don't want to give up seating space. Really, the goal is to have more effective seating so that we could all sit easier.

 

[SoonerAviator]

This is the sort of thing I was thinking. Does the flip-up bolster provide enough to sit comfortably? I'm assuming it would. What features does the pedestal have? Rotate and up/down?

Some of the flip-up bolsters are more for "leaning" against, than actual sitting. Some designs are better than others for cushioning regarding sitting on the bolster itself. As far as pedestals, it really just depends on your preference. I'd definitely get one that's pneumatically height-adjustable so that you can set it differently for seated and standing positions, but the swivel function is up to you. In rougher waters, I don't like to have to use my feet/legs to keep the chair from swiveling, so I prefer no swivel. However, most use a friction control on the swiveling to keep it from just free-wheeling on you.

 

[Ted]

Some of the flip-up bolsters are more for "leaning" against, than actual sitting. Some designs are better than others for cushioning regarding sitting on the bolster itself. As far as pedestals, it really just depends on your preference. I'd definitely get one that's pneumatically height-adjustable so that you can set it differently for seated and standing positions, but the swivel function is up to you. In rougher waters, I don't like to have to use my feet/legs to keep the chair from swiveling, so I prefer no swivel. However, most use a friction control on the swiveling to keep it from just free-wheeling on you.

I'd figure the swivel would be important so I could sit in the chair looking backwards when parked.

Another thing to question... I have no idea how much it costs to redo a boat deck as being described (also redoing the side panels). The layout I'm describing is basically what was standard on boats in the mid 90s, so may not make sense to redo this one.

 

[Bill]

This is the sort of thing I was thinking. Does the flip-up bolster provide enough to sit comfortably? I'm assuming it would. What features does the pedestal have? Rotate and up/down?

Comfortable enough to sit on for a 40min fairly rough ride up the lake. Our boat has an angled footrest under the dash, so when adjusted correctly I'm seated on the flipped up bolster, and braced in with my feet/legs against the angled footrest. Works well. Our pedestal has fore/aft, rotate, and height adjustments.

 

[Ted]

Comfortable enough to sit on for a 40min fairly rough ride up the lake. Our boat has an angled footrest under the dash, so when adjusted correctly I'm seated on the flipped up bolster, and braced in with my feet/legs against the angled footrest. Works well. Our pedestal has fore/aft, rotate, and height adjustments.

Thanks, good info. That's more or less what I'd want, although there's no good place for my feet to be propped.

Right now I spend most of my time standing while driving the boat, which I'd like to get away from doing. Also prefer to be looking over the windshield, especially on a lake.

 

[jsstevens]

Thanks, good info. That's more or less what I'd want, although there's no good place for my feet to be propped.

Right now I spend most of my time standing while driving the boat, which I'd like to get away from doing. Also prefer to be looking over the windshield, especially on a lake.

What I did (when a teen) was plop a cushion on the seat back and sit there with my feet on the seat bottom. These were not the back to back seats like you've got, though. Fixed aluminum bench with a fixed aluminum back.

 

[Bill]

Right now I spend most of my time standing while driving the boat, which I'd like to get away from doing. Also prefer to be looking over the windshield, especially on a lake.

I think this type of seat will be good for you, then. Yes, I prefer to be above the windshield, we have lots of darned big boats on this lake that kick up 3ft rollers, I can spot the easier looking over the windshield.

 

[SoonerAviator]

I bet, with upholstery, it'd run a couple grand ($2-3K) to re-do the whole thing depending on the materials used and how fancy you go with stitching and color combos. That's the one thing that always holds me back, because I'd want to keep the double-stiched seams, piping, and tuck-n-roll style my boat currently has, which would cost a fortune to replicate. Not to mention the fact that the bow seats would have to be done, too, in order for everything to match.

 

[Ted]

What I did (when a teen) was plop a cushion on the seat back and sit there with my feet on the seat bottom. These were not the back to back seats like you've got, though. Fixed aluminum bench with a fixed aluminum back.

I've tried that, but it ends up being too high. I know, I'm too picky.

I bet, with upholstery, it'd run a couple grand ($2-3K) to re-do the whole thing depending on the materials used and how fancy you go with stitching and color combos. That's the one thing that always holds me back, because I'd want to keep the double-stiched seams, piping, and tuck-n-roll style my boat currently has, which would cost a fortune to replicate. Not to mention the fact that the bow seats would have to be done, too, in order for everything to match.

Right. That pushes us towards a different boat, which may be where we end up. Have to look at all the options. Of course, @jesse has already made plans for picking up this boat from us and has since we bought it 2 years ago.

 

[SoonerAviator]

I've tried that, but it ends up being too high. I know, I'm too picky.

It also breaks down the seat back cushioning on the back-to-back lounge seats which is never good.

Right. That pushes us towards a different boat, which may be where we end up. Have to look at all the options. Of course, @jesse has already made plans for picking up this boat from us and has since we bought it 2 years ago.

I'm guessing it's a Sea Ray? Probably 23' or 25' model? Hard to tell size from those photos, but the SR 230/250 Weekender was a really popular model in the late-80's.

 

[Rock]

Get a canoe or kayak! They are cheap and both last forever.

 

[Ted]

I'm guessing it's a Sea Ray? Probably 24' or 26' model? Hard to tell size from those photos, but the SR 268 was a really popular model in the late-80's.

What I have now is a late 80s Sea Ray 230 CC, 23' plus 2' ski platform on back.

I've looked at the SR Sundancer 268s from the late 80s. The big thing I don't like about it is the "jump seat" layout for the two seats behind the captain seat (which is really a loveseat). Overall, it would actually be a downgrade in layout. The 90s are where I start to see layouts that would work as an improvement.

 

[SoonerAviator]

What I have now is a late 80s Sea Ray 230 CC, 23' plus 2' ski platform on back.

I've looked at the SR Sundancer 268s from the late 80s. The big thing I don't like about it is the "jump seat" layout for the two seats behind the captain seat (which is really a loveseat). Overall, it would actually be a downgrade in layout. The 90s are where I start to see layouts that would work as an improvement.

Agreed. I always liked the Formula 252 and 260 SS/"Sun Sport" models from the 90's and 00's for that same layout with the cuddy cabin and u-bench acoss the back. They have about the most "seating" area in that size-range as everything but the foot well is a seat, lol.

 

[Ted]

Agreed. I always liked the Formula 252 and 260 SS/"Sun Sport" models from the 90's and 00's for that same layout with the cuddy cabin and u-bench acoss the back. They have about the most "seating" area in that size-range as everything but the foot well is a seat, lol.

Some of the U-shaped seats in back are also appealing, as well as the "sun deck" sort of area above the engines. I do like those features.

When I look at the different varieties, I typically like what Sea Ray makes the best. One of the other problems with some of the larger boats from my perspective is the kitchenette. For us, not something we need and basically just takes up space.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Some of the U-shaped seats in back are also appealing, as well as the "sun deck" sort of area above the engines. I do like those features.

When I look at the different varieties, I typically like what Sea Ray makes the best. One of the other problems with some of the larger boats from my perspective is the kitchenette. For us, not something we need and basically just takes up space.

Are you referring to the small kitchen in the cabin, or the wet-bar on deck? I do agree that a single small sink and single-burner stove are almost useless for most cuddy cabins where the space is better used for storage. The wet bar/small fridge/ice maker can be handy in some instances, but again, most people would rather just have the good 'ol cooler aboard.

 

[Ted]

Are you referring to the small kitchen in the cabin, or the wet-bar on deck? I do agree that a single small sink and single-burner stove are almost useless for most cuddy cabins where the space is better used for storage. The wet bar/small fridge/ice maker can be handy in some instances, but again, most people would rather just have the good 'ol cooler aboard.

I was referring to both. It'd be useful if we were going to spend the weekend on the boat (or longer), but it's basically just wasted space otherwise. We just load up the cooler before we get out on the water, and that keep things cold until we're done.

I do have a desire to do a more extended boat trip at some point, but that would involve buying a boat that's more appropriate for the purpose. Inboard diesels, etc.

 

[Ted]

That actually gets to another question I've had: How does one plan a boat trip? Let's say I wanted to go from KC to Florida. I can take the Kansas River to the Mississippi, then get to the Gulf. I can buy all sorts of chart plotters and such, but how do I plan for things like marinas to buy fuel, etc.? When on the big rivers is it just known I'll be able to get through and get fuel often enough like you find on an interstate?

If I get told to fly from here to Mexico, I'll be ready in 15 minutes. No idea how to do that with a boat.

 

[SoonerAviator]

That actually gets to another question I've had: How does one plan a boat trip? Let's say I wanted to go from KC to Florida. I can take the Kansas River to the Mississippi, then get to the Gulf. I can buy all sorts of chart plotters and such, but how do I plan for things like marinas to buy fuel, etc.? When on the big rivers is it just known I'll be able to get through and get fuel often enough like you find on an interstate?

If I get told to fly from here to Mexico, I'll be ready in 15 minutes. No idea how to do that with a boat.

I'd be going over to some of the dedicated forums on "the great loop". You'll find tons of info on what the best route is, minimum bridge clearances and drafts, as well as good rest stops/fuel stops. From my understanding, the upper Mississippi River is pretty easy with several good fuel stops. The lower Mississippi is much more difficult due to lack of many places to hold up for the night and few fuel options between long distances, I believe there may only be one fuel stop on a 400+mile section somewhere. Most people opt to use the Tenn-Tom waterway instead of the lower Mississippi because there are lots of good stops and fuel sources along the way (spits you out in the Gulf in Alabama instead of Louisiana).

My father and I have talked about running it from Tulsa (Port of Catoosa) and going down to the gulf. I'm not sure there's much information on that run, though, as it's not part of "the loop". It does run through a few small lakes and such, so fuel might be easier than the Lower Mississippi. However, I don't think our ski boat is going to be the best option for that trip, even with the aft curtain on. The 25 gallon fuel tank won't likely get us too far, either, without a bunch of jerry cans or an aux fuel tank.