Think twice before landing at military base...

Jaybird180 said:
That's PIC right to determine when to declare. End of that discussion as far as I'm concerned.
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So the guy who asked if he could land on the beach in NY, was told no, and then declared an "emergency" shouldn't be forced to have a "discussion" at all? Disagree.

It's a nearly sacred right for a PIC to declare an emergency and do what it takes to meet the demands of that emergency, but if the PIC abuses that right, I expect the FAA to question it.
 
Jaybird180 said:
That's PIC right to determine when to declare. End of that discussion as far as I'm concerned.
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You're confusing the immediate reaction to the declaration (which should indeed be to respect it unconditionally) with the subsequent handling of the matter. Pilots should not be punished for sincere declarations. But if there's reason to suspect blatant fraud, and if investigation proves it occurred, then of course the pilot should be held liable.

It's like a 911 call. Responders shouldn't second-guess it at the time, but if it turns out to be a deliberate prank, then it should be prosecuted.
 
Velocity173 said:
Which I find hilarious. Diming out their own people. Base Ops calling the SPs? "We've got two AF F-15s on the ramp who diverted for weather and they don't have a PPR. Might wanna get out here and check them out."

I flown into AF bases all over the world and never had a security issue. Looking back, I guess it's a good thing I didn't have to divert without a PPR!
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Let me clarify, military aircraft can declare a military airfield that is PPR only as an alternate if weather dictates. They just can't go there for any reason without getting a PPR in advance unless they have an emergency or they are diverting to the PPR base that they are using as an alternate due to weather preventing their landing at the original destination.

Civilian aircraft better have a PPR number or a bonafide emergency or they'll have some 'splainin' to do for sure.
 
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Witmo said:
That's not true. Even AF planes can't land without a PPR if the AF base is notamed PPR only unless it's an emergency.
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I am friends with an AF C130 driver and will float this question on him. He is a trainer, so should know the book answer.

I have worked at two different DoD air stations and never once has there been an issue with any DoD badged airframe chirping tires on our pavement unexpected. One is a very famous place and they even made a movie about it.:yes:

Maybe the AF is so wound tight they think another service badged airframe doesn't rate?:dunno:
 
Witmo said:
Let me clarify, military aircraft can declare a military airfield that is PPR only as an alternate if weather dictates. They just can't go there for any reason without getting a PPR in advance unless they have an emergency or they are diverting to the PPR base that they are using as an alternate due to weather preventing their landing at the original destination.

Civilian aircraft better have a PPR number or a bonafide emergency or they'll have some 'splainin' to do for sure.
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I agree that it seems that's the policy the AF operates on but I'm saying if someone like Evil diverts to AF base for weather, emergency or not, listed alternate or not, SHOULDN'T need any explaining to the SPs.

The PPR is nothing more than a heads up to base ops and the transient line people making sure there's room on the ramp for parking. Fuel available. O2 available. JASU (old days) available. It's to make sure there isn't anything going on (quiet hours) for your arrival. If you have a code on board a PPR is a must. What it isn't is an AOE deal where you need SPs or MPs standing by. It's not hard to figure out that the aircraft on the ramp is military and not a security threat.

If there's a problem the airfield manager might come out and scold the pilots for showing up without a PPR but you appoligize, buy him a few beers at the O club and call it good. There are rules and there is common sense.
 
Velocity173 said:
If there's a problem the airfield manager might come out and scold the pilots for showing up without a PPR but you appoligize, buy him a few beers at the O club and call it good. There are rules and there is common sense.
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+1 thousand
 
B350ATP said:
Evil, we have folks on this board who will immediately not believe your story. You "must be leaving something out". :rolleyes:
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Yeah, that's gotten to be an article of faith for some people. It may be that it is often true, but that is not the same as always true. In any case, it's no more valid than any other assumption a person might come up with.
 
Unit74 said:
...I used to do low approaches into CamPen all the time.....but I also knew the controllers. A quick call and we were cleared in, then depart to OCN VOR to hold and then the ILS into Crq. ....good times.
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As a civilian, Travis AFB allowed me to fly their ILS the one time I asked, and I don't know anybody there. I just had to make sure I didn't touch down.

I fly the ILS to Moffett often, in various rental planes, and I don't know anyone there either, but I guess that one's not military anymore, just federal.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
That sounds fishy to me. CAP is part of the AF and their planes do land at AFB's on official business. I don't see why they'd make them truck it out.
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Maybe it was a personally owned or rented aircraft. Their use for CAP purposes used to be routine.
 
Palmpilot said:
As a civilian, Travis AFB allowed me to fly their ILS the one time I asked, and I don't know anybody there. I just had to make sure I didn't touch down.



I fly the ILS to Moffett often, in various rental planes, and I don't know anyone there either, but I guess that one's not military anymore, just federal.
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Perhaps one of the ATC guys here can confirm, but I recall reading somewhere that the AF will allow any civilian plane to conduct instrument approaches to an AFB. You only need the prior approval if you want to land.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Perhaps one of the ATC guys here can confirm, but I recall reading somewhere that the AF will allow any civilian plane to conduct instrument approaches to an AFB. You only need the prior approval if you want to land.
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That's my understanding about military bases in general, but I have no authoritative information on it.
 
I know GUS has a civilian FBO on the field. You only need the PPR if you want to taxi to the military ramp. The comments for GUS say to expect progressive taxi instructions. I presume to keep you from going where you are not supposed to.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Perhaps one of the ATC guys here can confirm, but I recall reading somewhere that the AF will allow any civilian plane to conduct instrument approaches to an AFB. You only need the prior approval if you want to land.
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Not sure on AF policy but Navy / Marine policy is you need a civil aircraft landing permit and base CO approval for practice approaches. Not sure if all bases adhere to that though.

We used to have a guy who owned a strip north of NBC and had a landing permit for approaches. During bad weather days he'd do a PAR to get below the clouds, cancel and then approach would take the freq and clear him SVFR out of the Class D.
 
Jaybird180 said:
That's PIC right to determine when to declare. End of that discussion as far as I'm concerned.
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flyingcheesehead said:
So the guy who asked if he could land on the beach in NY, was told no, and then declared an "emergency" shouldn't be forced to have a "discussion" at all? Disagree.

It's a nearly sacred right for a PIC to declare an emergency and do what it takes to meet the demands of that emergency, but if the PIC abuses that right, I expect the FAA to question it.
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Clearly, Mr. Rajaaahhhh, notwithstanding.

acrophile said:
You're confusing the immediate reaction to the declaration (which should indeed be to respect it unconditionally) with the subsequent handling of the matter. Pilots should not be punished for sincere declarations. But if there's reason to suspect blatant fraud, and if investigation proves it occurred, then of course the pilot should be held liable.

It's like a 911 call. Responders shouldn't second-guess it at the time, but if it turns out to be a deliberate prank, then it should be prosecuted.
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Of course. When the "E" word is used, someone ought to look into a safety improvement issue and if none found, I suppose the PIC will be questioned and then I say to let the chips fall where they may for crying wolf.
 
Yep, PAX River used in the ancient days to provide approaches (even GCA) to civilians who promised to go missed. Even way before 9/11 they put an end to that. The Army at DAA was more accomodating.

Any way regardless of your rank PPR has been the norm for the 30+ years I've been around military fields. You have escaped with a finger wag in the old days but you weren't supposed to do it.
 
Velocity173 said:
Not sure on AF policy but Navy / Marine policy is you need a civil aircraft landing permit and base CO approval for practice approaches. Not sure if all bases adhere to that though.

We used to have a guy who owned a strip north of NBC and had a landing permit for approaches. During bad weather days he'd do a PAR to get below the clouds, cancel and then approach would take the freq and clear him SVFR out of the Class D.
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Some military fields permit practice low approaches (provided there is no landing), others don't. Even in the DC area, some of the military bases have permitted practice approaches, including PAR & Radar approaches
 
wsuffa said:
Some military fields permit practice low approaches (provided there is no landing), others don't. Even in the DC area, some of the military bases have permitted practice approaches, including PAR & Radar approaches
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Yeah I think it varies by facility. Navy / Marine policy is to have a CALP and CO approval for practice approaches. It makes no mention of actually touching the runway so it includes all types of approaches. Like said though, some facilities are more strict than others. Each facility has an air ops manual outlining those procedures. I was just reading Cherry Point's and they don't allow it. They seem very strict on civilian VFR aircraft even entering the Class D. I also noticed they call PMO for military aircraft landing without a PPR. Lol! Go figure.:redface:

Army policy requires roughly the same but actually mentions landing. I've done practice approaches at Army fields before with no CALP but was restricted to a low approach.
 
Velocity173 said:
Yeah I think it varies by facility. Navy / Marine policy is to have a CALP and CO approval for practice approaches. It makes no mention of actually touching the runway so it includes all types of approaches. Like said though, some facilities are more strict than others. Each facility has an air ops manual outlining those procedures. I was just reading Cherry Point's and they don't allow it. They seem very strict on civilian VFR aircraft even entering the Class D. I also noticed they call PMO for military aircraft landing without a PPR. Lol! Go figure.:redface:

Army policy requires roughly the same but actually mentions landing. I've done practice approaches at Army fields before with no CALP but was restricted to a low approach.
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Randolph in San Antonio didn't permit it (and after 9/11 even eliminated the painted runway numbers for a while), Belvoir permitted it for a long time (but got hosed by the DC FRZ), either W32 or VKX used to have a "local" procedure to fly the Andrews ILS and then go visual to W32/VKX that got lower mins than the regular procedures (I believe that also went away with the FRZ), and I don't recall about Quantico, though it might have permitted approaches if you could ever figure out when the tower was really open. Wilmington, Ohio used to allow, but Wright-Patt didn't.

There are more dual-use fields now, so things are a bit different there.

YMMV.
 
Velocity173 said:
Yeah I think it varies by facility. Navy / Marine policy is to have a CALP and CO approval for practice approaches. It makes no mention of actually touching the runway so it includes all types of approaches. Like said though, some facilities are more strict than others. Each facility has an air ops manual outlining those procedures. I was just reading Cherry Point's and they don't allow it. They seem very strict on civilian VFR aircraft even entering the Class D. I also noticed they call PMO for military aircraft landing without a PPR. Lol! Go figure.:redface:

Army policy requires roughly the same but actually mentions landing. I've done practice approaches at Army fields before with no CALP but was restricted to a low approach.
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Forney Field - KTBN is a public airport located on the army base at Fort Leonard wood Missouri. Weather permitting, I shall land there at noon Friday to see my wife's sister and her family and I predict we will not be shot, nor surrounded with guns, nor will I fill out reams of paperwork.

The only benefit? I'll avoid the lines at the front gate and the 12 hour drive from Houston... It'll be 3 hours and 15 minutes if the winds are favorable. :yes:

Love the Army controllers. Those guys have NO sense of humor. At all. All business. All the time. Great FBO. Check them out if you're in the area.

I need to call them in the morning....;)
 
retailguy said:
Forney Field - KTBN is a public airport located on the army base at Fort Leonard wood Missouri. Weather permitting, I shall land there at noon Friday to see my wife's sister and her family and I predict we will not be shot, nor surrounded with guns, nor will I fill out reams of paperwork.

The only benefit? I'll avoid the lines at the front gate and the 12 hour drive from Houston... It'll be 3 hours and 15 minutes if the winds are favorable. :yes:

Love the Army controllers. Those guys have NO sense of humor. At all. All business. All the time. Great FBO. Check them out if you're in the area.

I need to call them in the morning....;)
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Actually flew into there with my old AA-5 a few years back. Buddy of mine was stationed at Leonardwood at the time. Cold and windy!
 
Fearless Tower said:
Perhaps one of the ATC guys here can confirm, but I recall reading somewhere that the AF will allow any civilian plane to conduct instrument approaches to an AFB. You only need the prior approval if you want to land.
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That has been the norm on a non-interference basis (low approach only).
 
Fearless Tower said:
Perhaps one of the ATC guys here can confirm, but I recall reading somewhere that the AF will allow any civilian plane to conduct instrument approaches to an AFB. You only need the prior approval if you want to land.
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This is true. As long as a bunch of Air Force iron isn't in the pattern they will let you fly approaches to low approaches till you are blue in the face as long as you don't touch down.
 
RussR said:
...There is some paperwork - a Hold Harmless agreement, an insurance form to be signed by your insurer - and you need to be a member of one of several categories (such as a military member, spouse, CAP, contractor on business with the government, etc.). You need to start it a couple months in advance and it results in a "Civil Aircraft Landing Permit".

Then, prior to departing for your flight, you generally need to get a PPR (Prior Permission Required) number from the base. This will be passed on to the tower and you may or may not have to tell it to them on initial contact so they can confirm you have authorization.....
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That's still the way it is now Russ, but the requirement is to get the PPR 72 hours in advance. Most want you to file even if VFR, and to notify them of your 30 minute landing window before you takeoff. I've not had a tower ask for the PPR number - they always expect me, but the process you describe is accurate. (Retired AF)
 
While on an IFR flight plan, I had an issue with my Bonanza flying from St. Mary's County and Gaithersburg MD and they cleared me to land at Andrews Air force Base to resolve the issue. I got things under control and cancelled the emergency and made a precautionary landing at BWI.
 
wsuffa said:
Some military fields permit practice low approaches (provided there is no landing), others don't. Even in the DC area, some of the military bases have permitted practice approaches, including PAR & Radar approaches
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interesting you say that. When I was getting my instrument training, Robins Air Force Base would allow us to do approaches as long as "we didn't touch the runway." I thought that was an odd thing to say, but now I understand why.
 
rbridges said:
interesting you say that. When I was getting my instrument training, Robins Air Force Base would allow us to do approaches as long as "we didn't touch the runway." I thought that was an odd thing to say, but now I understand why.
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I guess they have to draw the line somewhere.
 
It was Dave Wartofsky, manager of VKX who published the "ILS into ADW--Special VFR to VKX" plate on his website. He got rid of that once he finally got an GPS approach into the field.

I used to always tell distant ATC outlets my destination was ADW. When I got handed off to ADW they always asked "Potomac or Hyde?"
 
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