The ultimate user fee

eh i'll be surprised to see it get past the thinking about it phase
 
I would oppose this on the same basis that I oppose aviation user fees: efficiency.

Collecting through fuel purchases is about as efficient as it gets, and pretty much impossible to game.

Determining miles driven??? Odos will be rolled back by the thousands by willing service station mechanics, well, hell, backyard mechanics, for a minor cash fee.

If they aren't getting enough money due to fuel efficiency (go figure, better mileage is bad!!) then just raise the gas tax to make up the difference. Why spend zillions creating yet another bureaucracy to do less efficiently what is already done????????????
 
flyersfan31 said:
I would oppose this on the same basis that I oppose aviation user fees: efficiency.

Collecting through fuel purchases is about as efficient as it gets, and pretty much impossible to game.

Determining miles driven??? Odos will be rolled back by the thousands by willing service station mechanics, well, hell, backyard mechanics, for a minor cash fee.

If they aren't getting enough money due to fuel efficiency (go figure, better mileage is bad!!) then just raise the gas tax to make up the difference. Why spend zillions creating yet another bureaucracy to do less efficiently what is already done????????????
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They want to stick a GPS device into each car and actually track you. This proposal provides insight into the thinking of government bureaucrats and politicians who want total control of our lives and money.
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jan/04/nation/na-gas-tax4
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-02-20/...y-trust-fund-roads-and-bridges?_s=PM:POLITICS
 
Why don't they quit fooling around and just create a breathing tax. A penny for every 1000 breaths or something like that. A secondary breathing rate tax could be implemented too. Couch potatos wouldn't have as much expense as say runners or soccer players who use more air because they're breathing deeper. No one is exempt. At birth they start the counter and stop when people kick the bucket though they could probably charge a penalty fee for no longer contributing to the breathing tax at that point. This could increase the all mighty money mongering to a level that would make Ebenezer look like an bungling incompetent amateur.

Of course it would be fun to watch the computer money machine register a massive sudden increase in breathing tax revenue for several days followed by a big drop in tax income. And out the windows surrounding every building in DC would be triple digit millions of people with torches and pitchforks which is way overdue anyway.

$10 says even if they charged $5 per mile in addition to what they're already collecting, the condition of the roads will not improve. Be aware that this is a sucker bet because they keep jacking the rates every year and the roads keep getting worse.
 
Gary F said:
They want to stick a GPS device into each car and actually track you.
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I've heard that's one of the proposed 'solutions' - that also gives different States the ability to tax you whenever you cross into their territories.
 
Matthew said:
I've heard that's one of the proposed 'solutions' - that also gives different States the ability to tax you whenever you cross into their territories.
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That will give them the opportunity to create checkpoints and check for concealed weapons like pocket knives, multi-tools or a Swiss Army knife with integral tweezer and toothpick. :rolleyes:
 
Anthony said:
That will give them the opportunity to create checkpoints and check for concealed weapons like pocket knives, multi-tools or a Swiss Army knife with integral tweezer and toothpick. :rolleyes:
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Nah - I don't think they can stop you when entering*. They'll just get the GPS tracking report and send a bill.

* But they CAN stop you when you leave. We get all sorts of interesting situations in Kansas City because the KS/MO border runs right down the middle of town. A couple years ago, after either a Chiefs or Royals game (probably a Chiefs game), the MO highway patrol set up a sobriety checkpoint. But, they set it up only on one set of lanes, right at (maybe even right after) the last highway exit in MO just before the highway crossed into KS. The only cars being stopped were actually leaving MO.
 
flyersfan31 said:
[snip]
Collecting through fuel purchases is about as efficient as it gets, and pretty much impossible to game.

Determining miles driven??? Odos will be rolled back by the thousands by willing service station mechanics, well, hell, backyard mechanics, for a minor cash fee.
[snip]
Click to expand...

The issue with gaming it is that pure electrics and plug in hybrids pay little or no tax because they use very little or no gasoline. (I guess the LP and waste vegetable oil conversions never hit critical mass on this one.)

The states (or counties, I'm not sure of the mix) get tax revenue from license plate fees, but that's not the federal government, nor is it based on miles traveled, only on weight.

As for the odometer rollback, I'm pretty sure you can't roll back the electronic ones. That'd be a major hacking effort. It's sure not like the old mechanical ones which could be tampered with.

I really don't like the idea of any of these mileage fees, but if alternative energy vehicles really take off, it's an issue. You can argue that it incentivizes people to move to those alternative vehicles, but by definition tax incentives are not "fair".

John
 
fgcason said:
Why don't they quit fooling around and just create a breathing tax. A penny for every 1000 breaths or something like that.
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Are you talking an inhalation tax for consuming O2? Or an exhalation tax? Exhaled breaths are full of CO2 - a greenhouse gas - so they should be taxed more. Plus, that's more like a VAT: the final product is always worth more than the raw materials input.

Therefore, I propose a flat(ulence) tax. Certainly, that would be the most valuable of all our bodily functions. And, indeed, one which I would quite possibly be inclined to overpay. In person. At the tax collectors' office. :lol:
 
There was talk last year of this in NV. The discussion even included varying the tax based on time of day and highway used. Being on the interstate through town during peak commuter hours would cost more. The GPS reporting device on the car would report road used and time of day.

This thought process also invades personal rights of not being spied on by the Gov't. But then the Gov't answer is, "you don't have to drive".

The state already gets annual odometer readings at the annual inspection or smog check. They could charge based on that information and drop all fuel taxes. The individual states would not like that. When you buy gas in that state they get their portion of the tax. When you pay an annual fee to your registered state. The other states you travel through get nothing from you for the service (state highway) they provided.
 
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Don't we already have a form of driving tax? It is called toll roads! Living in Illinois you get to become well acquainted with paying per mile on the roads.
 
rpadula said:
Are you talking an inhalation tax for consuming O2? Or an exhalation tax?
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Even better. A tax for each and a third tax for the green house gas emission.
The national debt could be paid off in full by August, September at the latest.

A walking tax is next. Put a little step counter and a toll road pass kind of thing in the heel and just think of how the money would roll, or walk, in...

Torches and Pitchforks...
 
ScottM said:
Don't we already have a form of driving tax? It is called toll roads! Living in Illinois you get to become well acquainted with paying per mile on the roads.
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I was amazed that for a trip from Baltimore to Atlantic City and back it was 27.00 in tolls for a 340 mile round trip
 
rpadula said:
Are you talking an inhalation tax for consuming O2? Or an exhalation tax? Exhaled breaths are full of CO2 - a greenhouse gas - so they should be taxed more. Plus, that's more like a VAT: the final product is always worth more than the raw materials input.

Therefore, I propose a flat(ulence) tax. Certainly, that would be the most valuable of all our bodily functions. And, indeed, one which I would quite possibly be inclined to overpay. In person. At the tax collectors' office. :lol:
Click to expand...

Radish, onion and cabbage surcharge applies...
 
jsstevens said:
The issue with gaming it is that pure electrics and plug in hybrids pay little or no tax because they use very little or no gasoline. (I guess the LP and waste vegetable oil conversions never hit critical mass on this one.)

The states (or counties, I'm not sure of the mix) get tax revenue from license plate fees, but that's not the federal government, nor is it based on miles traveled, only on weight.

As for the odometer rollback, I'm pretty sure you can't roll back the electronic ones. That'd be a major hacking effort. It's sure not like the old mechanical ones which could be tampered with.

I really don't like the idea of any of these mileage fees, but if alternative energy vehicles really take off, it's an issue. You can argue that it incentivizes people to move to those alternative vehicles, but by definition tax incentives are not "fair".

John
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Tack a "road use surcharge" tax onto the purchase of alternate energy vehicles equal to maybe 10,000 miles at average car gas consumption. Not perfect, but still cleaner (and far less intrusive) than some GPS-driven bureaucratic monstrosity.
 
jsstevens said:
The issue with gaming it is that pure electrics and plug in hybrids pay little or no tax because they use very little or no gasoline. (I guess the LP and waste vegetable oil conversions never hit critical mass on this one.)
...snip...
I really don't like the idea of any of these mileage fees, but if alternative energy vehicles really take off, it's an issue.
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This is the rationale for a new system, which isn't the complete waste people are making it out to be. It's a forward thinking idea. It's not being portrayed as such, but this is an attempt to solve an actual problem. It might not be a practical solution - or even a good idea, but that doesn't mean there isn't a problem to be solved.

flyersfan31 said:
Tack a "road use surcharge" tax onto the purchase of alternate energy vehicles equal to maybe 10,000 miles at average car gas consumption. Not perfect, but still cleaner (and far less intrusive) than some GPS-driven bureaucratic monstrosity.
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That would likely discourage purchase (and in turn development) of such vehicles and people would be up in arms about how 'unfair' the tax is.
 
When I read this, at first I was :mad:
Then I was :dunno:

While I do not agree with the whole tracking the user, or trying to make up for lost taxes because of better fuel efficiency, there really does need to be a way to fairly collect revenue for road usage, especially since hybrids and electrics are paying less than their fair share. Creating a giant bureaucracy or tracking system for private users is not the answer however. But, maybe the interstate system can be entirely funded by commercial operations. The commercial ops have to hit the weigh stations anyway, and I don't think there is a privacy issue violation in tracking commercial ops. For the comm ops it's a net 0 anyway because they are just going to pass the cost along to the consumers anyhow. Either way we pay, but it can be done without tracking 100,000,000 cars.
 
flyersfan31 said:
Tack a "road use surcharge" tax onto the purchase of alternate energy vehicles equal to maybe 10,000 miles at average car gas consumption. Not perfect, but still cleaner (and far less intrusive) than some GPS-driven bureaucratic monstrosity.
Click to expand...

The whole stupid idea of government intrusion into automaker's business was to force people to buy fuel efficient vehicles. Hybrids came along and the government gave subsidies to car makers to make and sell them.

Oh No!!

People bought fuel efficient cars and hybrids to save the environment, at the gov't behest and wonde of wonders.... the idiots that brought you fuel efficiency minimums want to tax you for obeying.

Stupid is as congress does.
 
Matthew said:
As States try to increase revenue, they get more inventive. Depending on fuel taxes is a problem when people start driving less, or driving more fuel efficient cars.

I just saw that Nevada Energy wants to raise electric rates to make up for the loss of revenue due to people using less electricity:
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2011/may/04/nv-energy-does-good-so-it-wants-raise/
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Yes, I heard that from NV Energy. Buy Gov't mandated low energy light bulbs, insulate the house better to save on air-conditioning and then raise the rates because the profits are down.

People are just not buying less gas because of electrics or hybrids. People are out of work, there are a lot of empty houses, not taking driving vacations, there are not as many people left to buy gas and tax revenue is down overall.
 
ScottM said:
Don't we already have a form of driving tax? It is called toll roads! Living in Illinois you get to become well acquainted with paying per mile on the roads.
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Notice that most of the toll roads are back east, very few if any out west.
I felt last year driving from Maine to Boston to western NY and back, the Gov't was in my wallet every hour collecting "user fees".
 
Florida Cracker said:
The whole stupid idea of government intrusion into automaker's business was to force people to buy fuel efficient vehicles. Hybrids came along and the government gave subsidies to car makers to make and sell them.

Oh No!!

People bought fuel efficient cars and hybrids to save the environment, at the gov't behest and wonde of wonders.... the idiots that brought you fuel efficiency minimums want to tax you for obeying.

Stupid is as congress does.
Click to expand...

Tends to happen when you try to manage markets.....

I agree - call it another pot-sweetener for the buyers of hybrids, or better yet, ditch the tax credit and explain how they'll save on fuel taxes, and apply the money from the tax credit to rebuilding roads.
 
flyersfan31 said:
Tends to happen when you try to manage markets.....

I agree - call it another pot-sweetener for the buyers of hybrids, or better yet, ditch the tax credit and explain how they'll save on fuel taxes, and apply the money from the tax credit to rebuilding roads.
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Used car prices are up as much as 30%. Part of the lack of supply is the cash-for-clunkers program that destroyed many cars. Net result: increased prices for car buyers, increased taxes to pay for the cash expended and the interest thereupon, and increased taxes for driving (including the fuel tax). And where I live, increased personal property taxes (the much despised car tax). And an entre into intrusive monitoring of your movements, mileage, and so forth in order to calculate the tax.

Political commentary withheld.
 
EdFred said:
When I read this, at first I was :mad:
Then I was :dunno:

While I do not agree with the whole tracking the user, or trying to make up for lost taxes because of better fuel efficiency, there really does need to be a way to fairly collect revenue for road usage, especially since hybrids and electrics are paying less than their fair share.
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oh my gawd. "fair share":rolleyes:

How about the people who are driving less? Shall we tax them for the miles they should have driven.

:rolleyes:
 
jsstevens said:
As for the odometer rollback, I'm pretty sure you can't roll back the electronic ones. That'd be a major hacking effort. It's sure not like the old mechanical ones which could be tampered with.
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Make the tax high enough, the tools to hack the flash storage become cheaper.

Read Freakonomics.

Then we'll have the "War on Assembly programmers". LOL.
 
BillTIZ said:
Yes, I heard that from NV Energy. Buy Gov't mandated low energy light bulbs, insulate the house better to save on air-conditioning and then raise the rates because the profits are down.
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Xcel Energy already got their rate bump for electric cars from the Colorado PUC, which is completely in their back pocket.

Anything higher than 500 KW/h in a month residential service, is charged at a significantly higher rate now. Just in time for the plug-in cars.
 
Bob Noel said:
oh my gawd. "fair share":rolleyes:

How about the people who are driving less? Shall we tax them for the miles they should have driven.

:rolleyes:
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The Nissan Leaf can travel thousands of miles of roads and pay $0 towards the usage of them. But I'm paying for roads it when I'm not even using them. Cutting my grass, using my snowblower, riding the ATVs, using my chainsaw, etc...

And no, if you drive less, you shouldn't pay for what you "should have" used.
 
jtheune said:
I was amazed that for a trip from Baltimore to Atlantic City and back it was 27.00 in tolls for a 340 mile round trip
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When I lived near Chicago, I found that when driving on the toll roads there the tolls cost me more than the gasoline for the same trip.
 
EdFred said:
The Nissan Leaf can travel thousands of miles of roads and pay $0 towards the usage of them. But I'm paying for roads it when I'm not even using them. Cutting my grass, using my snowblower, riding the ATVs, using my chainsaw, etc...

And no, if you drive less, you shouldn't pay for what you "should have" used.
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The flaw in your argument is the assumption that only fuel taxes pays for the roads.

Also, another flaw is that you claim that you are paying for something you aren't using but apparently you think the Nissan Leaf owner doesn't cut her grass or snowblower, etc.
 
gismo said:
When I lived near Chicago, I found that when driving on the toll roads there the tolls cost me more than the gasoline for the same trip.
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Big oil and /or who ever raises the price for oil when an alligator farts in New Orleans is working on fixing that.
 
Bob Noel said:
The flaw in your argument is the assumption that only fuel taxes pays for the roads.

Also, another flaw is that you claim that you are paying for something you aren't using but apparently you think the Nissan Leaf owner doesn't cut her grass or snowblower, etc.
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Of course they don't. They are granola eating hippies decorated in henna and smelling of dirt, and would never think to cut their grass. :D
 
denverpilot said:
Make the tax high enough, the tools to hack the flash storage become cheaper.

Read Freakonomics.

Then we'll have the "War on Assembly programmers". LOL.
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Well, the FCC has declared war on GPS jammers, which could be quite effective against GPS-based mileage taxation systems.

EdFred said:
The Nissan Leaf can travel thousands of miles of roads and pay $0 towards the usage of them. But I'm paying for roads it when I'm not even using them. Cutting my grass, using my snowblower, riding the ATVs, using my chainsaw, etc...

And no, if you drive less, you shouldn't pay for what you "should have" used.
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You (wrongly) assume that the gas tax will be eliminated if this proposal comes to fruition.
 
wsuffa said:
Well, the FCC has declared war on GPS jammers, which could be quite effective against GPS-based mileage taxation systems.




You (wrongly) assume that the gas tax will be eliminated if this proposal comes to fruition.
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Oh, I don't assume that at all. It will soundly stay in place. However, the Leaf is purely electric meaning they pay 0.
 
Bob Noel said:
oh my gawd. "fair share":rolleyes:

How about the people who are driving less? Shall we tax them for the miles they should have driven.

:rolleyes:
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Roads are necessary as part of the infrastructure even for people who don't drive. Much commerce is conducted on roads. Isn't this the rationale we use for government support of airports and airspace?
 
EdFred said:
When I read this, at first I was :mad:
Then I was :dunno:

While I do not agree with the whole tracking the user, or trying to make up for lost taxes because of better fuel efficiency, there really does need to be a way to fairly collect revenue for road usage, especially since hybrids and electrics are paying less than their fair share. Creating a giant bureaucracy or tracking system for private users is not the answer however. But, maybe the interstate system can be entirely funded by commercial operations. The commercial ops have to hit the weigh stations anyway, and I don't think there is a privacy issue violation in tracking commercial ops. For the comm ops it's a net 0 anyway because they are just going to pass the cost along to the consumers anyhow. Either way we pay, but it can be done without tracking 100,000,000 cars.
Click to expand...

So, similar to the Atlanta water debacle a few years ago where, under threat of arrest and fines, you were FORCED by the government to not use water (we had a drought). People complied and water usage went down, but lo and behold....revenues went down to and so what did they do...yup, they freaking RAISED rates.

If the government is going to FORCE use to change energy types and it results in a revenue reduction, they should have thought of that. I am not saying that we should not adapt to the change for revenue collection, but mileage based taxing is way over the line. The government does not get to know how much I drive a day, month, or week...it is none of their damn business.
 
Bob Noel said:
oh my gawd. "fair share":rolleyes:

How about the people who are driving less? Shall we tax them for the miles they should have driven.

:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Don't give them any ideas.. they come up with enough of their own :hairraise:
 
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