The tower opens at 0700 not 0659!

COFlyBoy

COFlyBoy

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Nov 23, 2009
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Aurora, CO
Display Name
COFlyBoy
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KBJC
This morning I was doing some IR training out of FKTG (Front Range Airport Denver). We were ready to go at runway 26. We checked the ATIS and it had been updated, so we thought the Tower would be open. So I called tower and told them I was ready to go. The response I got was that the tower would not be open for another minute. So, I used the tower freq as the CTAF and went on my way. About halfway through my takeoff roll the tower opened and cleared me for takeoff. :thumbsup:
 
Denver has had some great flying weather this week. Here (Denver / Longmont) the temps have been perfect, the sky blue, and lots of fixed wing, rotor, and a few bedsheets (paragliders & parachutes) overhead.
 
COFlyBoy said:
This morning I was doing some IR training out of FKTG (Front Range Airport Denver). We were ready to go at runway 26. We checked the ATIS and it had been updated, so we thought the Tower would be open. So I called tower and told them I was ready to go. The response I got was that the tower would not be open for another minute. So, I used the tower freq as the CTAF and went on my way. About halfway through my takeoff roll the tower opened and cleared me for takeoff. :thumbsup:
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Bring 'em half a box of donuts as a thank you. ;-)
 
roncachamp said:
As a thank you for what?
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For their service halfway down the runway.

Hope you didn't take my comment personally... I love ATC Steve. ;-) My comment was more of a "joke Friday" kind of thing.
 
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I learned the hard way that the presence of an ATIS or ASOS indicating the field is open/not open is not the indicator of the fields status. Instead one must pay attention to the time down to the minute. If your time source is off by several minutes you might have a bad day.
 
This goes back a few years but I was arriving at KPWK PALWAUKEE then. It was prior to the tower opening. I was making position announcements in the pattern as I was landing when the tower opened. Their first transmission was:

The Palwaukee tower is now open, any traffic in the area please advise.
 
ScottM said:
This goes back a few years but I was arriving at KPWK PALWAUKEE then. It was prior to the tower opening. I was making position announcements in the pattern as I was landing when the tower opened. Their first transmission was:

The Palwaukee tower is now open, any traffic in the area please advise.
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:hairraise::hairraise::hairraise::hairraise::hairraise::ihih:
 
I had the inverse happen to me on my dual XC. Landed at DBQ (Class D), went in to have a coke, came out within 2-3 mins of tower closing. Was unsure, so I called them up "Tower, are you open?". Their reply (with music blaring in the background) "Nope." I guess everyone has post-shift paperwork to do. ;)
 
That's not unusual for employees, Chris... show up late (or on time, but rarely early) and leave early (or on time, but rarely late).
 
Try going to a field where the tower opens and closes at odd and random times so they can be "towered" for the arrival and departure of military traffic!

I was flying into Greenville, TX (KGVT), at which L3 has a huge government contracting operation, and was turning base to final, announcing (as I had been) on CTAF, when the tower guy comes up on frequency and clears me for the option. I was mortified that I had somehow been transmitting on the wrong frequency or some such error, and he assured me that I had done nothing wrong, he had just opened up (it was something like 3:00 on a Sunday afternoon).

As I touched down, a KC135 checks on and gets cleared to land. By the time I was to the FBO, the 135 was turning off of the runway, and theinstant the juet cleared the active, tower announces, "Greenville Majors Tower is closed. All traffic announce on the common traffic frequency." They were open for, maybe, three minutes.
 
I was approaching to land at KTOP just before the tower closed. There were about 4 planes either landing or getting ready to take off. The tower asked each airplane, one at a time to give a position report. As soon as we all finished the tower said "Tower is now closed" and left us on our own.
 
Similar situation--only I was landing at night at CXY (Capital City-Harrisburg, PA). I was talking to the tower and was cleared to land. Then they told me they were closing. All of the sudden, the runway lights went black! Apparently when they close the tower, they shut off the lights.

However, they are Pilot Controllable Lights, and on short final, I had to click-click-click-click-click for the lights to come back up! I was expecting it, but it was still an eerie feeling!
 
"N204J! Traffic alert! Target closing rapidly, same altitude, converging, immediately turn to a heading of....."

pause

"9pm; Tower Is Now Closed."
 
I learned about the down to the second thing when we were doing the ILS into KBJC in a snowstorm. Somewhere inside the outer marker the tower said, "Jeffco Tower is now closed, report your downtime to Denver Approach on..." I thought it was amusing that they weren't even curious if we would make it in or not.
 
Everskyward said:
I learned about the down to the second thing when we were doing the ILS into KBJC in a snowstorm. Somewhere inside the outer marker the tower said, "Jeffco Tower is now closed, report your downtime to Denver Approach on..." I thought it was amusing that they weren't even curious if we would make it in or not.
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Why? It was just the tower that closed, not the facility responsible for IFR operations.
 
Everskyward said:
I learned about the down to the second thing when we were doing the ILS into KBJC in a snowstorm. Somewhere inside the outer marker the tower said, "Jeffco Tower is now closed, report your downtime to Denver Approach on..." I thought it was amusing that they weren't even curious if we would make it in or not.
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They aren't paid to be curious. They're paid until 5pm.
 
More than once I've been headed into OLM, received instructions and then had the tower shut down, right at 8 PM local time. No big deal. They are good about saying what traffic is in the area and then pulling the plug for the night. Start announcing your position on the CTAF and all is well.
 
Haha, yeah, reminds me of when I learned that Atis vs. Asos does not mean tower is open or closed.

Got to the airport early (or was it late?), checked and got the ASOS. Started taxiing towards the runway to hear...

Tower: "Tiger so-and-so, taxi runway 25 runup"
Me: "Uh..."
 
AA5Bman said:
Haha, yeah, reminds me of when I learned that Atis vs. Asos does not mean tower is open or closed.

Got to the airport early (or was it late?), checked and got the ASOS. Started taxiing towards the runway to hear...

Tower: "Tiger so-and-so, taxi runway 25 runup"
Me: "Uh..."
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It can get worse...you taxi to the runway..do your runup "Blah traffic, bugsmasher 1234 departing runway xx"

"bugsmasher 1234, podunk tower is open, please standby"

"bugsmasher 1234, advise ready to copy phone number"
 
COFlyBoy said:
This morning I was doing some IR training out of FKTG (Front Range Airport Denver). We were ready to go at runway 26. We checked the ATIS and it had been updated, so we thought the Tower would be open. So I called tower and told them I was ready to go. The response I got was that the tower would not be open for another minute. So, I used the tower freq as the CTAF and went on my way. About halfway through my takeoff roll the tower opened and cleared me for takeoff. :thumbsup:
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Jesse, I had the opposite experience. I was making an evening VFR landing at KBDR, I thought the tower was closed so I announced on the CTAF (also tower) that I was on a long downwind for 24 and I had the aircraft on short final 24 in sight. Tower responded with "Tower is still open Nxxx cleared to land 24 or 29, your option. Your traffic will be down by the time you get here." I responded that I was still headed for 24. By the time I was on short final, the tower closed announcement was made.

-Skip
 
weilke said:
Sometimes I wish I would have gone into goverment service.
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Hey now, Zombie Reagan (BBBBRRRAAAIIINNSSS) broke that union. They are now free-floating employees able to be hired/fired at will (or were the last I bothered to care)
 
Unregistered said:
Hey now, Zombie Reagan (BBBBRRRAAAIIINNSSS) broke that union. They are now free-floating employees able to be hired/fired at will (or were the last I bothered to care)
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A new controllers union, NATCA, was formed over twenty years ago to protect poor controllers.
 
Unregistered said:
Hey now, Zombie Reagan (BBBBRRRAAAIIINNSSS) broke that union. They are now free-floating employees able to be hired/fired at will (or were the last I bothered to care)
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roncachamp said:
A new controllers union, NATCA, was formed over twenty years ago to protect poor controllers.
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At the risk of this going to SZ, President Reagan was only guilty of upholding the law. I signed the same piece of paper those controllers did when I started working for the government in 1975. It said that I would not strike against the government, and that if I did I would be fired. They did, and he held them to their agreement.
 
Unregistered said:
Hey now, Zombie Reagan (BBBBRRRAAAIIINNSSS) broke that union. They are now free-floating employees able to be hired/fired at will (or were the last I bothered to care)
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I dont believe that that is correct. FAA employed controllers are civil service employees, many of them represented by a union. Yes, they may get fired, but it is my understanding that this is not 'at will' but rather part of a complaint/correction process.

Opening the tower at 0700 is what they get paid for, it seems a bit persnickety to tell an aircraft that contacts tower 1 minute too early to wait but probably no real downside to sticking to the clock.

Otoh, telling an aircraft on final in a snowstorm to report their landing to center seems a bit of a 'don't care' attitude that doesnt promote the safety of the plane on final at the time. Pretty much the same happened to the pilot of this SR22 at Crystal,MN last year:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20090617X05239&key=1

Is it really that hard to stand there and wait for the plane to roll out and exit the runway ? Probably wouldn't have made a difference for the pilot of this flight, but if the call to fire/rescue comes from the tower it tends to have more precise information than if it comes from a passerby on his cell.
 
weilke said:
Opening the tower at 0700 is what they get paid for, it seems a bit persnickety to tell an aircraft that contacts tower 1 minute too early to wait but probably no real downside to sticking to the clock.
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I agree- if they're going to bother to key the mic to let him know he needs to wait- less than a minute!- for tower service, why not just handle him? Equipment still booting? :D
I guess the impulse was to pay him a courtesy, but it ended up sounding like a reprimand or something.
 
weilke said:
Is it really that hard to stand there and wait for the plane to roll out and exit the runway ? Probably wouldn't have made a difference for the pilot of this flight, but if the call to fire/rescue comes from the tower it tends to have more precise information than if it comes from a passerby on his cell.
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Not defending their actions - but realistically where is the line? In bad weather they may have a line of planes coming in one after another. "Common courtesy" would dictate that they stay online for who knows how long, well after hours and make sure they are all safe. At some point you just gotta say "That's enough, I'm done." As was pointed out, they only get paid up to a certain point, then they start volunteering to miss birthday parties and weddings and such - which brings up another question - if they hang around after quitting time (and are technically volunteers at that point), who is liable for a bad decision or direction? I would think that this possibility of liability might drive that "open/closed" decision somewhat. I can easily see someone sitting in the tower for another 5 minutes to make sure rescue services aren't needed but staying far away from the transmitter.
 
I know Madison has stayed open late (15 minutes, ±5) to catch the last airline flight of the night. Heck, they've even stayed open an extra minute or three for little ol' me, and then announced they were closed after I hit the runway.

They've also closed when that last airline flight is REALLY late, and closed while I was talking to them but still 20-30 miles out (they always advise of any traffic that's in the area before they do, though).

I still say, we have some of the best controllers in the business. :yes:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I know Madison has stayed open late (15 minutes, ±5) to catch the last airline flight of the night. Heck, they've even stayed open an extra minute or three for little ol' me, and then announced they were closed after I hit the runway.
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Stayed open or stayed there? Yes, there's a difference.

Green Bay ATCT/TRACON stays open past published closing time when the Packers host a Sunday or Monday night game. A NOTAM is issued advising pilots of the extended hours, the only difference from normal operations is the absence of Class C airspace.

If an IFR aircraft is just a few minutes short of landing at closing time I stay in the tower until he's on the ground. I make the normal closing announcement, but I leave the field and approach lighting alone until he's down and stand by to advise any other aircraft of the inbound. It's not a big deal, the shift ends fifteen minutes after closing time anyway.
 
roncachamp said:
Stayed open or stayed there? Yes, there's a difference.

Green Bay ATCT/TRACON stays open past published closing time when the Packers host a Sunday or Monday night game. A NOTAM is issued advising pilots of the extended hours, the only difference from normal operations is the absence of Class C airspace.
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Hmmm. Well, FWIW, they made the closing announcement while I was on my landing roll... But I'm sure there was no NOTAM, and the TRACON probably made the announcement after they handed me off to the tower, so I'd guess that someone who decided to fly through their airspace without saying anything would still have been OK.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Hmmm. Well, FWIW, they made the closing announcement while I was on my landing roll...
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Which was a minute or three after the published hours of operation, I assume. So when do they cease to be an operating control tower? At the published closing time or when they make the announcement?

But I'm sure there was no NOTAM, and the TRACON probably made the announcement after they handed me off to the tower, so I'd guess that someone who decided to fly through their airspace without saying anything would still have been OK.
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Do you mean through the Class C airspace? There wouldn't be any to go through. Even extended ATCT/TRACON hours by NOTAM wouldn't alter the airspace.
 
roncachamp said:
Which was a minute or three after the published hours of operation, I assume. So when do they cease to be an operating control tower? At the published closing time or when they make the announcement?
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I've often wondered that. PMing you..
 
roncachamp said:
...
If an IFR aircraft is just a few minutes short of landing at closing time I stay in the tower until he's on the ground. I make the normal closing announcement, but I leave the field and approach lighting alone until he's down and stand by to advise any other aircraft of the inbound. It's not a big deal, the shift ends fifteen minutes after closing time anyway.
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I've gotten service like this from ADS twr before, and it is very comforting - for you and those like you, who go that extra mile (or minute, as the case may be), thanks!
 
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