The state of training

Ken Ibold

Final Approach
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Ken Ibold
I hate to disparage fellow aviators, but I find it shocking that in a conversation last night a 200-hour recently check-rided instrument-rated pilot and aircraft owner asked, very seriously, "What's a wing spar?"

Have I just become jaded, or does it seem like that's really something someone ought to know?
 
Ken Ibold said:
I hate to disparage fellow aviators, but I find it shocking that in a conversation last night a 200-hour recently check-rided instrument-rated pilot and aircraft owner asked, very seriously, "What's a wing spar?"

Have I just become jaded, or does it seem like that's really something someone ought to know?
I share your concern about that, Ken. Why would someone not want to understand a/c fundmentals?

Robinson Helicopter feels the same way we do. I just completed the Pilot Safety Course in mid-September. There was a lengthy session on mechanical stuff, which included a full set of controls operating with a 2 foot mast, with a real rotor head, spindles, and sawed off blades. Basically stuff you can't see in a real ship because of fairings etc. They also had a disassembled sprag clutch to look at and a complete v-belt/rotor clutch assembly to play with. I learned a bunch of stuff that has to make me a better pilot.
 
Ken Ibold said:
a 200-hour recently check-rided instrument-rated pilot and aircraft owner asked, very seriously, "What's a wing spar?"

In reality, A CFI will ask the student to get familliar with his plane. The added cost involved with teaching a low wing driver about every other type of plane (including wing spars on a high wing) some would call unnessisary. While I agree its somthing most of us know about. Do we all need to know about it?
 
yeah, but ... still looking for some prop wash ... :dunno:

:D

on the other aileron, one can be quite proficient driving a car and have no clue about say, ring gear and pinon setups, right?

I wonder if Danica Patrick knows all about ring gears? :goofy: Whooohoooo!
 
gkainz said:
yeah, but ... still looking for some prop wash ... :dunno:

:D

on the other aileron, one can be quite proficient driving a car and have no clue about say, ring gear and pinon setups, right?

I wonder if Danica Patrick knows all about ring gears? :goofy: Whooohoooo!

Yes as a matter of fact she does, but that said, in a car you can pull off of the road and wait for AAA to come to your rescue, not so in the air.

That spar querstion, just brings up what I have been saying for years, we are producing generations of pilots that dont have a clue, take away their electronic crutches hand them a sectional and they cant find there rear-ends with both hands.

I have done BFRs the last 6 years with pilots that if I had the authority, I would have grounded. I dont mean just a few, i mean most of them, they have no idea what attitude control is, they cant land on less than 4 thousand feet of runway, dont know the function of the controls, i asked one a couple of weeks ago what flaps did, he said they are like air brakes to slow the airplane down, i asked if that was all that they did, he said yes.

A larger percentage of the pilots that I run into today are accidents looking for a place to happen and I really dont see much chance of it improving.
 
Ken Ibold said:
...Have I just become jaded, or does it seem like that's really something someone ought to know?

Well I feel like part of the problem as much as I try to be part of the solution.

I had my helicopter commercial before I went to the Robinson Safety Course. That demonstrator Bob mentioned did wonders to turn engineering genius like cyclic -> bell crank -> swash plate -> pitch link -> change in attitude into something simple and easy to grasp. Until then my understanding of the process was a lot like my mother understands what happens when she pushes on the gas pedal of her car.

Part of each airplane rating I teach is a trip to the mechanics shop where planes are in various states of disassembly and a point and ask "what's that" session that always has me asking Mike about at least one part. We are lucky in that Mike always has 0.5 with every student going over the logbooks. Not many students get their logbook review from an A&P/IA as far as I can tell.

I'm just rambling but I don't see a way to get people a private and instrument rating without big holes in their knowledge and airplane construction seems like one of the more harmless ones. In my mind demonstrating our ignorance by asking is the only way to keep from perpetuating it.

I'm open to suggestions on how to address this.

Joe
 
you start by shutting down the CFI mills until they can come up with training programs that turn out CFIs, not right seat warmers on a fast trac to the Kerosene Queens,

I hope everyone understands what I am saying and doesnt take it personally, but I look at the number of hours that students take to solo and then really dont know anything, it tells me that the CFIs are simply riding along, letting the student learn on their own until the CFI is ready to let them try it on their own. There can simply be no other reason why an intelligent 52 year old woman, would have 37 hours in a cessna 140, still hadnt soloed and when I first flew with her wasnt even close.

We have serious problems with safety in GA, almost all of them can be traced back to deficencies in initial training.
 
That's what I've been saying too John. Get rid of 61.51(e)(3). That would solve a TON of problems.
 
Michael said:
...The added cost involved with teaching a low wing driver about every other type of plane (including wing spars on a high wing) some would call unnessisary. While I agree its somthing most of us know about. Do we all need to know about it?

Michael, reading the above you seem to believe that a low wing aircraft has no wing spar? Is that what you actually meant?
 
Michael said:
In reality, A CFI will ask the student to get familliar with his plane. The added cost involved with teaching a low wing driver about every other type of plane (including wing spars on a high wing) some would call unnessisary. While I agree its somthing most of us know about. Do we all need to know about it?

....Huh?
 
wesleyj said:
you start by shutting down the CFI mills until they can come up with training programs that turn out CFIs, not right seat warmers on a fast trac to the Kerosene Queens,

I hope everyone understands what I am saying and doesnt take it personally, but I look at the number of hours that students take to solo and then really dont know anything, it tells me that the CFIs are simply riding along, letting the student learn on their own until the CFI is ready to let them try it on their own. There can simply be no other reason why an intelligent 52 year old woman, would have 37 hours in a cessna 140, still hadnt soloed and when I first flew with her wasnt even close.

We have serious problems with safety in GA, almost all of them can be traced back to deficencies in initial training.
I do take it personally although not in the manner you may think. Each individual must take personal responsibility to ensure that they are ready, willing, and able to gain the most from their education. Put another way, they should not simply be passively vacuuming any knowledge that may come their way.

I am constantly amazed that an increasing number of people don't even know the business end of a screwdriver let alone be able to explain the workings of a piston engine or aircraft systems. While that can be contributed to poor instruction it is only a part. The problem began when the individual had no desire and no opportunity to learn those things which transcend into the knowledge base neccesary to become a pilot. Remember, being a pilot is more than wiggling the controls and following the line on the GPS.

As for your example of this intelligent woman, perhaps we should consider her motivations and the knowledge base she brings to the table. What is so natural about the act of flying that intelligence in another area of expertise transfers readily into flying? She may also be carrying some incorrect perceptions about things (negative transfer). While it is the CFI who can correct that, the student also bears the responsibility to do so. The individual bears the responsibility to agree that their perceptions may be incorrect and then, having done that, begin to make the correction.

I think the FAA mins for instruction required are predicated on a student having certain knowledge which they have gained prior to commencing pilot instruction. Increasingly, you find that knowledge base is absent because the opportunity to develop that knowledge is scarce or there simply is no desire to exploit the opportunity to learn.

We should also consider the CFI's motivations. Yes, I have had those starry-eyed CFIs who can't wait to 'get jets' and in those instances if it weren't for me verifying what they were, um, 'teaching' I would have simply been a clone of them, regurgitating incorrect knowledge because I, like them, had little desire to learn better.

The flight schools are culpable because it is they who make the promise of '0 time to jets in 24 months' and because they create the 'pull 'em in, push 'em out' environment. But who in their right mind would believe such a tale? It is up to each student to authenticate each and every morsel of 'truth' handed down from the CFI.

The FAA or DE is in the position of catching any inadequacy in the student's training.

If I were to run out of fuel I wouldn't be able to point to my CFI and say he never beat it into me about the importance of time in the tanks even if he never taught that to me. It wouldn't pass the smell test because it is I who is PIC and it would be I who made the choices leading up to the incident/accident.

I'm not defending the woeful state of current pilot training, I'm simply saying the student also shares the burden.
 
wesleyj said:
I have done BFRs the last 6 years with pilots that if I had the authority, I would have grounded. I dont mean just a few, i mean most of them, they have no idea what attitude control is, they cant land on less than 4 thousand feet of runway, dont know the function of the controls, i asked one a couple of weeks ago what flaps did, he said they are like air brakes to slow the airplane down, i asked if that was all that they did, he said yes.

Im hoping you didnt sign them off for the flight review?
 
Ed Guthrie said:
Michael, reading the above you seem to believe that a low wing aircraft has no wing spar? Is that what you actually meant?
I took it as Michael saying if he drives a Mooney why should he have to learn about Cessnas. Why indeed. Well, for starters knowing things like the fuel system on different types is fairly important.

Instruction trivia: My CFI for the complex didn't know how the prop worked on the 210. It wasn't him playing dumb, he really didn't know. I actually showed him the system.
 
Ken Ibold said:
I hate to disparage fellow aviators, but I find it shocking that in a conversation last night a 200-hour recently check-rided instrument-rated pilot and aircraft owner asked, very seriously, "What's a wing spar?"

Have I just become jaded, or does it seem like that's really something someone ought to know?

I don't pretend to know everything....Well that is because there is no need to pretend ;) just kidding. But I really did not even see what a full aircraft engine looked like until I bought a plane and then spent time with the mechanic. I cannot remember any training where we went over anything but the most rudimetry descriptions of the airplane. I did know a bunch more than what was already being presented in training but that was because of me and my interests rather than the training process.

But I am shocked as well that an AIRCRAFT OWNER would not know what a spar was. Regardless of the flight time a pilot has, if you own, you should know more about planes than the average pilot off the street who is not an owner.
 
smigaldi said:
But I am shocked as well that an AIRCRAFT OWNER would not know what a spar was. Regardless of the flight time a pilot has, if you own, you should know more about planes than the average pilot off the street who is not an owner.
Maybe that's what got me. So perhaps I erred in titling this thread.
 
Ken Ibold said:
I hate to disparage fellow aviators, but I find it shocking that in a conversation last night a 200-hour recently check-rided instrument-rated pilot and aircraft owner asked, very seriously, "What's a wing spar?"

Have I just become jaded, or does it seem like that's really something someone ought to know?

Ken I acutally have to give that pilot some credit. He didn't know the answer and asked the question regardless of how it made him look. Yes I believe that parts of our pilot training is inadequate but look at it this way.

Learning to fly a plane is not like learning to ride a bike or drive a car or even sail a boat. The majority of folks if not all who learn these things have for a number of years or at least a few times driven in a car or seen folks peadling a bike or been sailing. Many of us who learn to fly have NEVER set foot in a small plane befor the day of their first lesson. Some don't know the questions to ask. I guess its a sin that perpetuates itself.

The day I got my ppl I stated on the AOPA board that I got my license to continue learing. So perhaps it not the pilot training thats lacking but the PILOT CONTINUING EDUCATION thats lacking.

When I got my PPL I did not know a lot of stuff but I keep asking questions. It was litterally just yesterday that I learned that mufflers suppress power. I never knew that. Now although I don't know how I understand that a "powerflow" exhust can help get added power out of an engine.

Now let me say something in general and no one person should take offense to what I'm about to say..... While Pilots are generally a friendly bunch we can be aviation snobs. Yes its true! look at this board or the AOPA board. Sometimes folks get slammed for asking certain questions. The CFIs or ATPs or those with many hours may think the answer is obvious. The person asking it does not. Harsh criticizm of ones question will lead that person and others to cease asking questions.

So pilots ya wanna increas your knowldege Ask questions and don't stop asking them
 
AdamZ said:
So perhaps it not the pilot training thats lacking but the PILOT CONTINUING EDUCATION thats lacking.

While there's plenty to criticize about the pilot training I've received and given, I think you are correct Adam.

Joe
 
Pretty good, Adam. Specific to asking questions, I have always asked questions and continue to do so. But I've learned who not to ask because of the intense negative feedback I've gotten. No one on this board but mostly the pilots I know.
 
Ed Guthrie said:
Michael, reading the above you seem to believe that a low wing aircraft has no wing spar? Is that what you actually meant?

No I was thinking Strut, not spar. You are correct.
 
AdamZ said:
Ken I acutally have to give that pilot some credit. He didn't know the answer and asked the question regardless of how it made him look. Yes I believe that parts of our pilot training is inadequate but look at it this way.

Learning to fly a plane is not like learning to ride a bike or drive a car or even sail a boat. The majority of folks if not all who learn these things have for a number of years or at least a few times driven in a car or seen folks peadling a bike or been sailing. Many of us who learn to fly have NEVER set foot in a small plane befor the day of their first lesson. Some don't know the questions to ask. I guess its a sin that perpetuates itself.

The day I got my ppl I stated on the AOPA board that I got my license to continue learing. So perhaps it not the pilot training thats lacking but the PILOT CONTINUING EDUCATION thats lacking.

When I got my PPL I did not know a lot of stuff but I keep asking questions. It was litterally just yesterday that I learned that mufflers suppress power. I never knew that. Now although I don't know how I understand that a "powerflow" exhust can help get added power out of an engine.

Now let me say something in general and no one person should take offense to what I'm about to say..... While Pilots are generally a friendly bunch we can be aviation snobs. Yes its true! look at this board or the AOPA board. Sometimes folks get slammed for asking certain questions. The CFIs or ATPs or those with many hours may think the answer is obvious. The person asking it does not. Harsh criticizm of ones question will lead that person and others to cease asking questions.

So pilots ya wanna increas your knowldege Ask questions and don't stop asking them
Yes, you raise some good points, Adam. And I am not trying to be critical of this particular individual. I tend to set high expectations (which makes the kids psychotic), so I do acknowledge the possibility that I'm being an airplane snob. That's one of the reasons I brought up this subject in the first place.
 
Bruce your post brings up an excellent point. The guy flyin a caravan you would expect would have his comm or he may just have had his IR, belvie it or not there are some caravans out there flown by pirvate owners either way he should have known what SVFR is. I suppose he could have been joking but lets assume he was not.

Should your skin crawl? Yup sure should but ya can't yank his ticket for asking the quesiton so unitl ya can we need to encourage the question asking. As stupid as it may sound and I know its counter intuitive if you were to say to him that he is a blithering idoiot that should be on the ground he will never seek out a correct answer again and remain dangerous. I suggest until you can yank his ticket for something like that you have to use the opportunity to make him safer and if you know him pull him aside and suggest recurrent training. It is the best we can do now.

Doctors here have a similar program called peer review. When a Dr. has a bad result with a patient that hints of a mistake on the Doctors part the case goes to a review panel infront of his peers where the Dr. baiscally divulges all the info in the case so the panel can help him or her not make the mistake again. In order to encourage the Dr. to be totally honest nothing he or she says in the peer review can be used against them or discovered in litigaiton.
 
Richard said:
How many flight reviews do you not sign off before the FBO calls you on the carpet?

If the FBO pressures me to sign off unsafe pilots so they can keep renting their planes, ill find a different FBO. I think the FBO would rather not have guys out flying their planes that are going to crash them. Sure they may lose a couple hundred bucks a year in rental (these types of guys are usually not guys who fly often) but that is a lot better than the insurance premium rise after an accident, assuming the insurance company will still cover them.
 
I suppose I shouldn't say that I am a 275+hour pilot, and I have NO idea what a wing spar is?
 
Richard said:
I am constantly amazed that an increasing number of people don't even know the business end of a screwdriver let alone be able to explain the workings of a piston engine or aircraft systems.

Suck, squeeze, pop!, phooey. Heck, I learned that as a little kid. Basics of a 4 cycle engine are easy. It's making them actually work well that takes some talent and experience. Love the A&P that keeps the planes I fly healthy.
 
Ken Ibold said:
I hate to disparage fellow aviators, but I find it shocking that in a conversation last night a 200-hour recently check-rided instrument-rated pilot and aircraft owner asked, very seriously, "What's a wing spar?"

Have I just become jaded, or does it seem like that's really something someone ought to know?
I don't know that it was ever taught to me, but I kinda can figure out what it is by the name. I may have read a mention in a Peter Garrison column or somesuch, but C'mon! Do some people have to be spoon fed?

I've had co-workers who said, "I can't do that. I haven't been trained on it." I just figure it out and wonder if I'm among a group with the smarts of carrots.
 
SkyHog said:
I suppose I shouldn't say that I am a 275+hour pilot, and I have NO idea what a wing spar is?
Nick. Spar = support beam What do you think one in a wing does?
 
Given the high-wing/low-wing reference, I'll bet Nick is mixing a wing strut with a wing spar.
 
Ken Ibold said:
I hate to disparage fellow aviators, but I find it shocking that in a conversation last night a 200-hour recently check-rided instrument-rated pilot and aircraft owner asked, very seriously, "What's a wing spar?"

Have I just become jaded, or does it seem like that's really something someone ought to know?

He's just a good IFR pilot, he doesn't know what planes are made of.
 
and when things start going wrong and the airplane is falling apart around him he will only one option, to crash., of course if he flies a non-pilots airplane, IE Cirrus, he can always pop the chute.
 
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wesleyj said:
and when things start going wrong and the airplane is falling apart around him he will only one option, to crash., of course if he flies a non-pilots airplane, IE Cirrus, he can always pop the chute.
I'm all for knowing everything you can, but if the airplane is falling apart he isn't going to get out on the wing and start making repairs to the spar, even if he knows what one is. :dunno:
 
Everskyward said:
I'm all for knowing everything you can, but if the airplane is falling apart he isn't going to get out on the wing and start making repairs to the spar, even if he knows what one is. :dunno:

However if a pilot knows the systems, knowledge might make the difference between being upside down in the tree tops vs making the airport for less catastrophic failures in progress and avoiding disasters by catching them during preflight.


This discussion about not knowing what a wing spar is: What do the PP training manuals show about basic aircraft design nowadays? The one I used (circa 1976) that my aunt gave me when I was training, chapter 1 shows cutaway/disassembled drawings of a generic plane. Are people just forgetting, skipping the basics, or is it just not in the book?
 
its still in chapter one of the jeppesen books. could be forgetting, if the instructor is teaching it, hard to tell.
 
tonycondon said:
its still in chapter one of the jeppesen books. could be forgetting, if the instructor is teaching it, hard to tell.
Well, now is a good time for a poll.

Which of the CFIs here include airplane structure and design at the PPL level? (more than wing planform)

Do you include wing fabrication and attachment methods? (non-fabric aircraft)

Do you include control systems? (cable & pulley, push rods, etc)
 
Everskyward said:
I'm all for knowing everything you can, but if the airplane is falling apart he isn't going to get out on the wing and start making repairs to the spar, even if he knows what one is. :dunno:

Lack of construction knowledge isn't that big of a worry to me, although how you can assess your preflight inspection without wonders me. Doesn't bother me since I preflight every plane I'm about to get in even if I'm not PIC. Once I was following the owner of a Sierra around the plane, at the prop, he felt up and down the bades and looked them over and went on. I grabbed the blades and gave them a shake. One moved 3/4" at the tip. We didn't fly the plane that day.

Systems knowledge though, that can either fry or save your hide.
 
Richard said:
Well, now is a good time for a poll.

Which of the CFIs here include airplane structure and design at the PPL level? (more than wing planform)

Do you include wing fabrication and attachment methods? (non-fabric aircraft)

Do you include control systems? (cable & pulley, push rods, etc)

I used to. How deep depended on the student, but they all knew how everything worked on the plane they were flying and where things were routed so if something happened say during loading, they could assess what may be affected.

Construction methods were discussed so they would have an idea of how stresses were distributed and anchored so they knew what kind of things they were looking for on a preflight. Since I worked in the shop, I'd drag them in and show them opened up airplanes.
 
I dont get indepth with construction, but my students do understand how an airplane is put together, the basic structure, the attachment of the wings, tailgroup, landing gear and engines. they also know the attachment, function and method of control or each of the cotrols, trim, flaps and engine, in the case of retractable gear they are taught the gear mechanism how it works and what are its weak points, on turbocharged they get instructed as to the workings, care and feeding of a turbocharger.

I also teach them to look at the controls during runup and see it they are going to move the airplane in the desired direction.

Watched one day while a fella rolled a freshly rebuilt stinson into a ball alongside the runway, seems the ailerons where reversed. I dropped a left wing, when he tried to raise it, it went down further, he the went to full right, that was it.
 
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I learned to fly only a few years ago at a medium-small airport and there was little instruction about the "innards" of the airplane. We learned the outside terms - empenage, horizontal stabilizer, etc - but not about the ribs, spars and other parts one doesn't see unless there's a problem. If I remember correctly, it's also not covered in the Jeppesen Private Pilot course.

I was in a club and the logbooks were kept "somewhere" by the mechanics.

It wasn't until I was in the process of purchasing a plane and a pre-buy that I really saw what was behind the plastic and aluminum skin and got to go through the logbooks in detail. You learn a lot about a plane when all the panels and flooring are opened up. It was an eye-opening experience, and one that I think should have been gone over by my instructor together will the logbook examination. Now, I still go through them periodically and am still finding "problems" such as the EGT gage that has no log entry. It's removed now for an engine monitor that will be properly documented.

This might help the less knowledgable of the structure of a wing. The animation is a little fast, but if you scroll down, you can see pictures of them going together.

http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/construct-wing.html

Tyler
 
Everskyward said:
I'm all for knowing everything you can, but if the airplane is falling apart he isn't going to get out on the wing and start making repairs to the spar, even if he knows what one is. :dunno:
Yeahbut, one of my instructors taught me to bounce the wing tips during preflight, watch for funny movements, and listen for strange sounds. Guess what that checks? I know!
 
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