The speed bug has hit, hard. Has anyone flown a Jetprop DLX?

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BonanzaDriver

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BonanzaDriver
I would love to have a single turbine- the DLX looks like a fun machine, granted the useful load isnt worth a darn. (good thing I don't have many friends)

The TBM is a bit pricey and loves to guzzle gas, so that is out.

Anyway, these are just dreams :) Any input for a single engine, turbine, that'll comfortably cruise +220 knots, pressurized, sexy? (oh, no lancair IVP suggestions please)
 
Conundrum is, you buy one of those, you'll have more friends than you can count.
 
Check out Epic. You get your choice of an experimental version that you build with a lot of factory help, or a fully certified version for another half million. 288-340 KTAS, 1300 # cabin load with full fuel. A friend of my boss just brought his completed kit home to Minneapolis. If I play my cards right I might get to ride to OSH in it this summer.

http://www.epicaircraft.com/
 
I second the Epic. They brought the prototype to Sun 'n Fun. Even from across the field it looked like it could deliver on its promises.

You hit then nail on the head regarding the DLX useful load.
 
The guys I know in the turboprop single market absolutely love the JetProp, and I think if I had the coin I'd have one myself. I have one friend who put 2000 hours on his Mirage, then converted it, and now has 600 hours on the PT6A. He calls the airplane "heaven."

As for the useful load, there is a lot of "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" that goes on about it. I have not investigated specifically why Rocket did not try to get a gross weight increase, and I don't know what aspect of the airplane is the limiting factor, but I do know the regulatory limit is routinely busted by 200 pounds or more. I'm not advocating that by any means, just telling you what operators are telling me. There was a case of a JetProp ferry flight that departed an airport in Egypt in 105 degree temps at 1000 pounds over gross (with ferry permit).

PM me with an email address and I'll send you an excellent article comparing the JetProp with the Meridian that appeared in the MMOPA magazine a few years ago.
 
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A buddy of mine in Vail was the first to build an RV-8 with a turbine hung on it. (His is the one Innodyn uses in its advertising) All the speed even Tim "The Tool Man" Taylor could want! Argh argh!
 
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lancefisher said:
Check out Epic. You get your choice of an experimental version that you build with a lot of factory help, or a fully certified version for another half million. 288-340 KTAS, 1300 # cabin load with full fuel. A friend of my boss just brought his completed kit home to Minneapolis. If I play my cards right I might get to ride to OSH in it this summer.

http://www.epicaircraft.com/
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Can't believe I forgot about the Epic. It certainly looks impressive, thought I wish they would publish stall speeds, landing/ takeoff distances and fuel flow.

The speeds of the LT are amazing, and the cost looks to be right on the money. As for the experimental versions, is this a kitplane or does the factory build it and sell it as an experimental?

Very cool stuff though.
 
RV-8 w/4 seats and a turbine? coooool
 
Has anyone contacted epic for pricing? If so, care to share with me?
 
BonanzaDriver said:
Can't believe I forgot about the Epic. It certainly looks impressive, thought I wish they would publish stall speeds, landing/ takeoff distances and fuel flow.

The speeds of the LT are amazing, and the cost looks to be right on the money. As for the experimental versions, is this a kitplane or does the factory build it and sell it as an experimental?

Very cool stuff though.
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The experimental version is sold as a factory assist program. You pay your money, go to the factory for a minimum of 10 days a month for 10 months, and they show you how to build it, and then help you build it. You get the repairman certificate at the end.

The airplane flies nice. Fit and finish, of course, is up to you.

Stall dirty is 58 knots. Landing approach speed is 120 on final, 90 over the fence. Takeoff distance is 1600 feet, landing distance is 1840.
 
Cessna Caravan. Oops, not pressurized. Only does 220kts down hill. Plenty of payload, though. :-D
 
BonanzaDriver said:
Can't believe I forgot about the Epic. It certainly looks impressive, thought I wish they would publish stall speeds, landing/ takeoff distances and fuel flow.

The speeds of the LT are amazing, and the cost looks to be right on the money. As for the experimental versions, is this a kitplane or does the factory build it and sell it as an experimental?

Very cool stuff though.
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"You" build the kit at the factory with "help". I suspect that the reality is that you assist the factory rather than the other way around. And IIRC it takes several weeks of full time effort on your part but it does knock a big chunk off the price (like about $700k I think) so in one sense you'd be well compensated for your time. OTOH, the experimental status would mean you could never let the airplane pay for itself by flying charters and at resale time, you would probably take another hit. Plus the experimental comes with a used engine vs new in the certified version.
 
lancefisher said:
"You" build the kit at the factory with "help". I suspect that the reality is that you assist the factory rather than the other way around. And IIRC it takes several weeks of full time effort on your part but it does knock a big chunk off the price (like about $700k I think) so in one sense you'd be well compensated for your time. OTOH, the experimental status would mean you could never let the airplane pay for itself by flying charters and at resale time, you would probably take another hit. Plus the experimental comes with a used engine vs new in the certified version.
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Very good points. I wonder what the economics are of having a certified and experimental aircraft that are essentially the same, on the used market. I would imagine that one would certainly cannibalize the other.

On another note, I wonder how the insurance industry would react to these high speed, high pax load experimental aircraft.
 
You'll limit your purchasers a bit with an experimental; insurance is limited to 100M per seat. Many folks with assets to protect will want more coverage than that.

It's all trade offs. The Epic makes one question why they'd purchase a turbine when a VLJ is near that acquisition price. Lots of puffery about the new VLJs and little factual info. Anyone go to Cirrus' site? You can put $100,000 down to reserve a position for their new VLJ. Just don't ask a lot of questions. They say FL250 and give airspeed, but no useful load, range or other minor things <vbg> Amazing to me that people write checks. Reminds me of how American Cars used to be marketed. All pizaz and few facts. Oh, no risk until 60 days before the plane begins production, but I didn't see a contract with any performance criteria.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
You'll limit your purchasers a bit with an experimental; insurance is limited to 100M per seat. Many folks with assets to protect will want more coverage than that.
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$100M/seat? I would think that a bit generous by an order of magnitude or three.
 
gprellwitz said:
$100M/seat? I would think that a bit generous by an order of magnitude or three.
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Might work for some folks Greg, but it will eliminate any purchaser with much in the way of assets to protect. Remember, the Epic is a six seater. Think of the case where there's an accident and a younger person is hurt and needs permanent medical treatment. How far do you think $100M would go toward that? In that case, if the pilot had more assets that were attachable, a good attorney would probably pursue them. In my case, I have $1MM smooth--can be paid in its entirety to one party or split among parties; It just goes farther in the above case. My sister-in-laws' company carries 25MM on the Hawker.

Best,

Dave
 
The EAA is very much down on the Epic "assist" program. It clearly violates the spirit and probably the letter of the regs governing an owner built aircraft. The EAA is afraid that the FAA could shut down many/most of the owner built benefits because of Epic's in-your-face approach to avoid the "inconveniences" of normal certification.
Yet, I climbed around it at Sun-n-Fun. Nice looking plane.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Might work for some folks Greg, but it will eliminate any purchaser with much in the way of assets to protect. Remember, the Epic is a six seater. Think of the case where there's an accident and a younger person is hurt and needs permanent medical treatment. How far do you think $100M would go toward that? In that case, if the pilot had more assets that were attachable, a good attorney would probably pursue them. In my case, I have $1MM smooth--can be paid in its entirety to one party or split among parties; It just goes farther in the above case. My sister-in-laws' company carries 25MM on the Hawker.

Best,

Dave
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Ah, I see the confusion. To me, M there meant Million, so 100M = $100,000,000, which will go an awful long way. So my three orders of magnitude takes that to $100,000, which is what you seem to have meant to begin with.

So in short, I agree with you.
 
Sorry Grant. Yes, I was using M as 1,000; not, 1,000,000. Didn't mean to confuse anyone.

Best,

Dave
 
gprellwitz said:
Ah, I see the confusion. To me, M there meant Million, so 100M = $100,000,000, which will go an awful long way. So my three orders of magnitude takes that to $100,000, which is what you seem to have meant to begin with.

So in short, I agree with you.
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Remember Dave's ancestry involves folks whose native language was Latin. (M = 1000 in Roman numerals).
 
Ken Ibold said:
As for the useful load, there is a lot of "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" that goes on about it.
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And it is just this sort of operator that brings us all grief.

The limit is the limit. What part do businessmen not understand? I'd be afraid to buy one of these used. How do you conduct an inspection for overstress?

I agree they're nice birds- if you can stand the 500 pound payload after fuel.

I know of a couple of C421 operators who routinely are 200 overgross. They'd jst better never lose an engine. I can see the accident report.....

As for the EPIC, the recent overhaul of the rules for homebuilts was DIRECTLY aimed at EPIC. Say, bye-bye.....High and Fast costs money. If you want 300 knots, your best bet remains a C502 with the retrofit step up engines....
 
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Dave Siciliano said:
Sorry Grant. Yes, I was using M as 1,000; not, 1,000,000. Didn't mean to confuse anyone.

Best,

Dave
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When there is doubt as to ATC's intentions, it is the pilot's responsibility to ask for clarification! :)

My ancestry involves computers. There, thousands is K, millions is M (roughly speaking, before someone jumps on binary representation :yes:).
 
lancefisher said:
Remember Dave's ancestry involves folks whose native language was Latin. (M = 1000 in Roman numerals).
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Thanks Lance :D

Yep, it is confusin. I still see M used for thousands a lot; don't see k a lot, but it makes sense.

Best,

Dave
 
bbchien said:
And it is just this sort of operator that brings us all grief.

The limit is the limit. What part do businessmen not understand? I'd be afraid to buy one of these used. How do you conduct an inspection for overstress?

I agree they're nice birds- if you can stand the 500 pound payload after fuel.

I know of a couple of C421 operators who routinely are 200 overgross. They'd jst better never lose an engine. I can see the accident report.....

As for the EPIC, the recent overhaul of the rules for homebuilts was DIRECTLY aimed at EPIC. Say, bye-bye.....High and Fast costs money. If you want 300 knots, your best bet remains a C502 with the retrofit step up engines....
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I can see times when one who is highly informed might fly over gross. I know a lot of folks that fly ferry flights with approval that way. In the Bonanza, there was an STC allowing a gross weight increase if the IO-550 was installed. Many folks did the IO-550 install, but didn't do it through the STC holder. Not technically legal, but no worse off than someone that did it through the proper channels.

The problem is, many uninformed people see the knowledgeable folks do it and don't understand the details. They go do it and create a problem. Then, a rule is passed that is detrimental to all of us.

I'm concerned about anyone flying over gross in the long wing Piper. If one looks at how the wing bolts and spar carry through is designed compared to some other planes, and the long wing, it would make them think hard. IIRC, there have been several of these that lost a wing over the years. It's the person that doesn't understand any of the above; then, because someone else does it, they do that get us in trouble. If the gross weight increase is safe in the Piper, someone should pay the freight to get it approved.

I've looked at the C-550 conversion Bruce and think I'll just wait. I'm just not seeing choices for the money I like. It would be $2MM for that bird the way I'd want it; then, I have an old aircraft with a high AF time. Guess I'll just stay where I am for awhile and let things play out. But, I have that option. If someone needs something now, hope they can make one of these work.

Oh, BTW, my insurance guy told me yesterday the MU-2 is now a two person crew requirement for the big guys.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
I'm concerned about anyone flying over gross in the long wing Piper. If one looks at how the wing bolts and spar carry through is designed compared to some other planes, and the long wing, it would make them think hard. IIRC, there have been several of these that lost a wing over the years. It's the person that doesn't understand any of the above; then, because someone else does it, they do that get us in trouble. If the gross weight increase is safe in the Piper, someone should pay the freight to get it approved.

I've looked at the C-550 conversion Bruce and think I'll just wait. I'm just not seeing choices for the money I like. It would be $2MM for that bird the way I'd want it; then, I have an old aircraft with a high AF time. Guess I'll just stay where I am for awhile and let things play out. But, I have that option. If someone needs something now, hope they can make one of these work.

Dave
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We've been looking at the same stuff, Dave :) Knowledge is most of the battle. Judgement is the rest.
 
bbchien said:
We've been looking at the same stuff, Dave :) Knowledge is most of the battle. Judgement is the rest.
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So here is the question that bugs me... how come turbine prices have not appreciably dropped over the recent years? The market is strong, and the technology is used across multiple industries... does this just come down to liability and cost of FAA certification?

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
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