The REAL deal - an aviation vacation

This is great reading. I'm a bit too reserved to spill my every thought and concern about a flight in a thread, but I can see everyone is very helpful and understanding.

I'm planning on doing 2 250+ mile trips this spring/summer, (MMU-AGC and MMU-CPK) and I'm sure I'll come across a lot of the same questions addressed in thie thread.
 
DavidWhite said:
You do way more planning than I do.
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Personalities. Your system works for you, but you also know your tolerance for the unexpected. Some people plan stuff down to the minute and penny.

Neither tactic works 100% of the time. ;)
 
Hi Kimberly.

If you are an AOPA member, you can (using their flight planning function) print out portions of sectionals on a color printer and use those. I personally always feel more comfortable if I have the paper on board, even though I rely a lot on a Garmin 196. Some FSDO people will violate you for not having current charts on a "long" cross country. It depends a lot on the person, but so do most things in life. If you feel more comfortable with the paper, pay the money -- its not much. Good luck, and have fun. If it ain't fun, it ain't worth doing!
 
somorris said:
Hi Kimberly.

If you are an AOPA member, you can (using their flight planning function) print out portions of sectionals on a color printer and use those. I personally always feel more comfortable if I have the paper on board, even though I rely a lot on a Garmin 196. Some FSDO people will violate you for not having current charts on a "long" cross country. It depends a lot on the person, but so do most things in life. If you feel more comfortable with the paper, pay the money -- its not much. Good luck, and have fun. If it ain't fun, it ain't worth doing!
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She has an iPad with Foreflight. I think that would satisfy the FSDO. It is a good idea to have a paper chart, but I don't think she will get busted.
 
She has an iPad with Foreflight. I think that would satisfy the FSDO. It is a good idea to have a paper chart, but I don't think she will get busted.
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I would have thought the same thing, until I was at a WINGS briefing recently. The FSDO rep basically said the same thing I did. Doesn't make a lot of sense, but that's what he said. I would launch with the Foreflight, or with just my old Garmin 196 for a 100 nm trip, and argue with the FSDO guy. Keep in mind that the FAA is uping their ramp checks, so be prepared.
 
John221us said:
She has an iPad with Foreflight. I think that would satisfy the FSDO. It is a good idea to have a paper chart, but I don't think she will get busted.
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Sorry for the long quote, but here's the answer from the FAA:
FAA said:
The term "charts" is not found in the FAA's Part 91 regulations (other than for large and turbine-powered multiengine airplanes in 91.503[a]). The specific FAA regulation, FAR 91.103 "Preflight Actions," states that each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight. What is not specifically addressed in the regulation is a requirement for charts. You should always carry a current chart for safety's sake. An expired chart will not show new frequencies or newly constructed obstructions, some of which could be tall enough to be a hazard along your route of flight.

The only FAA/FAR requirements that pertain to charts are:
Title 14 CFR section 91.503[a] (Large and Turbojet powered aircraft)
Title 14 CFR section 135.83 (Air Carriers-Little Airplane)
Title 14 CFR section 121.549 (Air Carrier-Big Airplanes)

The FAA has rendered interpretations that have stated the foregoing. The subject of current charts was thoroughly covered in an article in the FAA's July/August 1997 issue of FAA Aviation News. That article was cleared through the FAA's Chief Counsel's office. In that article the FAA stated the following:
"You can carry old charts in your aircraft." "It is not FAA policy to violate anyone for having outdated charts in the aircraft."
"Not all pilots are required to carry a chart." "91.503..requires the pilot in command of large and multiengine airplanes to have charts." "Other operating sections of the FAR such as Part 121 and Part 135 operations have similar requirements."
..."since some pilots thought they could be violated for having outdated or no charts on board during a flight, we need to clarify an important issue. As we have said, it is NOT FAA policy to initiate enforcement action against a pilot for having an old chart on board or no chart on board." That's because there is no regulation on the issue.
..."the issue of current chart data bases in handheld GPS receivers is a non-issue because the units are neither approved by the FAA or required for flight, nor do panel-mounted VFR-only GPS receivers have to have a current data base because, like handheld GPS receivers, the pilot is responsible for pilotage under VFR.
"If a pilot is involved in an enforcement investigation and there is evidence that the use of an out-of-date chart, no chart, or an out-of-date database contributed to the condition that brought on the enforcement investigation, then that information could be used in any enforcement action that might be taken."
If you, as an FAA Safety Inspector, Designated Pilot Examiner, Flight Instructor, or other aviation professional are telling pilots something other than the foregoing then you are incorrect.
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Thanks Mike. The guy who made the statement was using the statement quoted in the sentence you incuded
The specific FAA regulation, FAR 91.103 "Preflight Actions," states that each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight.
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and his position was that current charts were a part of "all available information." Wrong or right, that is what he said and he is in the field doing ramp checks. Maybe the FAA needs to further educate their staff, if it is truly their position that charts are not an issue.
 
somorris said:
Thanks Mike. The guy who made the statement was using the statement quoted in the sentence you incuded and his position was that current charts were a part of "all available information." Wrong or right, that is what he said and he is in the field doing ramp checks. Maybe the FAA needs to further educate their staff, if it is truly their position that charts are not an issue.
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So, are you stating that the charts downloaded through ForeFlight are missing information or that he alluded to that? Other evaluations I have read have indicated that the ForeFlight charts satisfy this requirement. Most recommend a backup, like an iPhone, second iPad or paper chart, but I hadn't heard that they didn't meet this requirement.
 
So, are you stating that the charts downloaded through ForeFlight are missing information or that he alluded to that?
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I'm not sure, John. He was talking about paper charts and didn't go into detail about Foreflight (I like Foreflight but am not sure it is officially "approved). It would be nice if we could get a solid answer. Mike indicated that the direction from HQ was that we would not be violated for old or no charts and I hope that is the case no matter who the inspector is. Here and other places it seems to me there is a lot of fog and no one seems to know FOR SURE what the answer is. I wish I knew.
 
I saw it put this way on another forum...

Here's how it is: As long as you don't ever need them, you are not required to have them. The second you need a chart and don't have it, you are in violation of 91.103, and 91.13.
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Since the FAA spells it out clearly on an FAA.gov site that you don't need VFR charts under ordinary Part 91, you have a pretty good defense if you're ever hassled for not having charts.
 
somorris said:
I'm not sure, John. He was talking about paper charts and didn't go into detail about Foreflight (I like Foreflight but am not sure it is officially "approved). It would be nice if we could get a solid answer. Mike indicated that the direction from HQ was that we would not be violated for old or no charts and I hope that is the case no matter who the inspector is. Here and other places it seems to me there is a lot of fog and no one seems to know FOR SURE what the answer is. I wish I knew.
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ForeFlight is not the same thing as a VFR GPS, such as the Garmin 195. It is an EFB that regularly downloads the most current chart, and these appear to be identical to the paper version (I believe they come from the same source). I fly with a 496 on my yoke and carry an iPad and an iPhone with ForeFlight on them with up to date charts. I also have the most current paper chart in my flight bag, but I don't keep it handy in flight.
 
What a splendid opportunity, Kimberly!! I'm excited for you, and I don't even get to be along for the ride. My family has done the 'beach-week' for many years, and Rob's family adopted the idea, so now we get two weeks a year someplace fun with crowds of great people. We almost always fly to these things, and very, very rarely get skunked on weather. If BF is worried about being a day late, fine-- let him hitch a ride with his folks-- and then see who gets there fastest! No worries on the weight that way, and if he's inclined, he can ride back with you, and the luggage goes with his parents. As you've found, solo flight is its own kind of joy. You get to exult to yourself something like, "I can't believe I'm up here! Look at me! Yahooo!!" And nobody's going to give you odd looks. As for the planning, that's part of the fun! Anticipation- you get to stretch out the adventure that way. For four days? Luggage is NOT going to be a problem. There's nothing you'll need but a quick change. GO! Have a wonderful time. Post photos and good stories.
 
Just called the Jet Center (again) since things are looking good. I flew a "cross country" (OK OK only 20-30nm each way but it took 1.7 hobbs due to 60 - 80 kts ground speed and a lot of taxi'ing).... that needs its own thread..... darned coastal winds and clouds and night flying over the Pacific.....anyways.

I called the Jet Center to ask how many flight schools are on the field at San Luis Obispo airport. They told me "two" and I called both.

The first consisted of a secretary who kept putting me on hold to ask a CFI what I was asking her, but she wouldn't transfer me to him, then she finally asked to take my name and number so the CFI could personally call me back (I have this feeling I'll never hear from them).

The second sounded kind of mean but warmed up to me (a woman). At the end of the call she told me her name and that she OWNED the flight school. She even offered to "help" me on the day I leave - look at the TAFs together, etc.

You see, I was calling the schools to get the scoop on the weather this time of year. I need to have a "go / no go" time next Friday, a time when we hop in the car instead of in the plane. I wanted to know if - for example - it is 2pm and the clouds haven't burned off - then does that mean they never will?

I was told it is not that simple. They've had nasty winds and crosswinds lately, and weather / clouds that come and go, nothing really "predictable".

What really worries me is that flight over the weekend. Perhaps I had foreflight set with the wrong altitude, but I adjusted my true air speed to 80 knots, and it said we would be to Half Moon Bay in 30 minutes. I had 1.7 Hobbs but I suppose a lot of that is runup and taxi (we had a lot of taxi at HMB ) So the worry is that this "2-3 hour cross country" will cost a lot more than I expected.

For that reason, I want to perhaps give ALL our bags to his parents and fly with full fuel and just get there all in one go. On the other hand, it would be nice to land mid-way and stretch my legs, but to climb again takes SO LONG.

I have more than 20 gallons of useable fuel, so it would be OK to go 200nm.... however I've never piloted a plane for that long.
 
carry enough fuel, climb to altitude, trim the plane, look out the window and enjoy the ride. 200 NM should only take 3 hrs at most... but really, if you decide midway to stop and take a break you can make that choice, you're the PIC. It's always good to have several "plans" in mind just in case.
wear shorts if it's warm enough and take a traveljohn in case you have to pee... other than that it should be fine. You might want to take some snacks in zip loc bags too like zucchini/squash sticks, carrot sticks, non refridge needing sandwiches cut into easy to hold sizes (like quarter it corner to corner)... just put them in the pockets behind the seats and grab and munch as you go.
 
Interesting noise abatement procedures, especially them asking pilots not to mess with their power settings on base and final:

Preferred Arrival Procedures

To Runways 29 & 11

Use VASI to remain at or above glide slope.
Maintain pattern altitude on downwind.
Avoid engine power setting changes on base final.
Avoid residential overflight when possible.
AVOID OVERFLIGHT OF ELEMENTARY SCHOOL UNDER LEFT BASE RUNWAY 29.


Touch and Goes


* Runway 29: No turns before reaching departure end of runway, make crosswind turns over the tank farm area and maintain pattern altitude on downwind.

* Runway 11: Maintain runway heading; reach pattern altitude prior to turning right crosswind.

* Minimize power/RPM and avoid engine power setting changes on base to final.

* AVOID OVERFLIGHT OF ELEMENTARY SCHOOL.


From Runway 29

Left Downwind Departure: No left turns prior to reaching departure end of runway. Make maximum rate of climb. Complete left crosswind turn prior to reaching South Higuera St.

Left Crosswind Departure: Make maximum rate of climb. Complete left turn prior to reaching South Higuera St, or maintain runway heading (290°) and execute turn after reaching Highway 101 but prior to reaching Laguna Lake residential area, or maintain runway heading and delay left turn until past Laguna Lake area.

Right Downwind Departure: Make maximum rate of climb. No right turns prior to reaching Tank Farm Rd. Execute right crosswind turn prior to reaching water tank on ridge line.
Right Crosswind Departure: Make maximum rate of climb, maintain runway heading (290°) and reach Highway 101 prior to executing turn.

From Runway 11

Right Downwind Departure: Maintain runway heading (110°) and climb to pattern altitude prior to executing turn. Avoid overflight of elementary school under right crosswind.

Right Crosswind Departure: Maintain runway heading (110°), make maximum rate of climb and delay right turn until past elementary school and residential area.
 
Looks like they have US Airways flights and United flights - almost TWENTY per day. I called and someone said they are not jets but still, I'd like to create a schedule so I can know when they are there.
 
Kim, get in the plane and fly South, poke your way through the hills and deal with the weather and traffic you get. None of your minutia detail OCD planning efforts will get you anything; quit sweating it. You can go inland or coastal depending on the weather when you're actually leaving; you can avoid traffic regardless of what time you get there.... All you need is the money.
 
Henning said:
Kim, get in the plane and fly South, poke your way through the hills and deal with the weather and traffic you get. None of your minutia detail OCD planning efforts will get you anything; quit sweating it. You can go inland or coastal depending on the weather when you're actually leaving; you can avoid traffic regardless of what time you get there.... All you need is the money.
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What the heck climbed up your a$$ today? I was just calling to ask them about weather and how busy the place is, looks like they have a ton of commercial flights and four different rental car companies on the field.

Lots of POA'ers plan their trips by calling FBO's and doing research. Don't see how this is different. I like to talk to the locals to get their insider perspective.
 
PS - Just recently went on a flight with a pilot to an airport (we came right back) and he briefed me for several minutes, had weather and flight plans printed out - 10 pages - to a "local" area he's been to dozens of times in his life. Just a 1-2 hour flight each way in his plane and he went to all that effort.
 
San Luis Obispo is not a problem to get into or out of. I have flown there several times and never saw a commercial plane, a few G-V's though. Dont beat yourself up over that airport, its not as bad as you might think. If you go to Oceano watch a few you tube videos of the airport. The first time I went there I made a long final and again no big deal there.

When I go to San Luis I park at transient parking, no need to pay FBO prices.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Interesting noise abatement procedures, especially them asking pilots not to mess with their power settings on base and final:

Preferred Arrival Procedures

To Runways 29 & 11

Use VASI to remain at or above glide slope.
Maintain pattern altitude on downwind.
Avoid engine power setting changes on base final.
Avoid residential overflight when possible.
AVOID OVERFLIGHT OF ELEMENTARY SCHOOL UNDER LEFT BASE RUNWAY 29.


Touch and Goes


* Runway 29: No turns before reaching departure end of runway, make crosswind turns over the tank farm area and maintain pattern altitude on downwind.

* Runway 11: Maintain runway heading; reach pattern altitude prior to turning right crosswind.

* Minimize power/RPM and avoid engine power setting changes on base to final.

* AVOID OVERFLIGHT OF ELEMENTARY SCHOOL.


From Runway 29

Left Downwind Departure: No left turns prior to reaching departure end of runway. Make maximum rate of climb. Complete left crosswind turn prior to reaching South Higuera St.

Left Crosswind Departure: Make maximum rate of climb. Complete left turn prior to reaching South Higuera St, or maintain runway heading (290°) and execute turn after reaching Highway 101 but prior to reaching Laguna Lake residential area, or maintain runway heading and delay left turn until past Laguna Lake area.

Right Downwind Departure: Make maximum rate of climb. No right turns prior to reaching Tank Farm Rd. Execute right crosswind turn prior to reaching water tank on ridge line.
Right Crosswind Departure: Make maximum rate of climb, maintain runway heading (290°) and reach Highway 101 prior to executing turn.

From Runway 11

Right Downwind Departure: Maintain runway heading (110°) and climb to pattern altitude prior to executing turn. Avoid overflight of elementary school under right crosswind.

Right Crosswind Departure: Maintain runway heading (110°), make maximum rate of climb and delay right turn until past elementary school and residential area.
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I see the OMFG the little airplanes are above the ELEMENTARY SCHOOL!?!?! wack-jobs have gotten to them. And it's California, so I'm surprised the "noise abatement" procedures aren't 100x worse. ;)
 
Luvrv8 said:
San Luis Obispo is not a problem to get into or out of. I have flown there several times and never saw a commercial plane, a few G-V's though. Dont beat yourself up over that airport, its not as bad as you might think. If you go to Oceano watch a few you tube videos of the airport. The first time I went there I made a long final and again no big deal there.

When I go to San Luis I park at transient parking, no need to pay FBO prices.
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Thanks but I've called twice and they are letting me park at the Jet Center / FBO for "free" as long as I let them put in 10 Gallons. Normally it is $7 per day to park there. I can't imagine the "transient" parking will let me stay 4 days for free?
 
PS - Why the You Tube recommendation RE: Oceano? Is it because the runway is short or . . . ?
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Thanks but I've called twice and they are letting me park at the Jet Center / FBO for "free" as long as I let them put in 10 Gallons. Normally it is $7 per day to park there. I can't imagine the "transient" parking will let me stay 4 days for free?
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At many airports, yes. Transient parking is 100% free. Just depends on the airport.
 
denverpilot said:
At many airports, yes. Transient parking is 100% free. Just depends on the airport.
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I don't know, mine is UNTOWERED and charges $3 or $5 (on your honor) per night. I can't imagine San Luis is free. Besides, the Jet Center will have services and I can buy gas (my flight school pays me back) and they are "watching" over my plane. With the family taking our bags, even if the FBO accidentally fills us to the brim, we are OK W&B wise.
 
I wasn't arguing against the FBO parking, just pointing out that outside of the alternate reality zone of California, there's still quite a few free ramps out here... :)
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I know, but FBO's have free cookies.
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LOL... Flower Aviation in KPUB has free frozen steaks if you buy enough gas... but nothing's truly free. :) (Seriously, they have a stamp card... buy gas at any of their FBOs, get free steaks.)
 
denverpilot said:
LOL... Flower Aviation in KPUB has free frozen steaks if you buy enough gas... but nothing's truly free. :) (Seriously, they have a stamp card... buy gas at any of their FBOs, get free steaks.)
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Funny, some guy here told me if you bring your avgas receipt to a BBQ place on field at a different airport, and yes they have steak and ribs, you get a free lunch. The coupon / offer is at the bottom of every avgas receipt.... and a certain gas pump. But still, free BBQ ribs is cool. And I ate there (not for free) and it was awesome. Called the "hangar BBQ" or something.
 
My first time into Oceano I watched the videos just to see the area and to watch the final leg. I just wanted some reference points. You can read all about the pattern but the videos answerd all questions I had. You mentioned a couple times about Oceano being short, I fly a 172 and a 177 into there and I don't think it's short for those planes at all. With the airport being a couple of hundred yards from the ocean its not short for take off as well.
 
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Luvrv8 said:
My first time into Oceano I watched the videos just to see the area and to watch the final leg. I just wanted some reference points. You can read all about the pattern but the videos answerd all questions I had.
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Thanks, just watched a few. I learned:

Look out for wind shear.

Airport is hard to find, follow the railroad tracks in.

(That's about it)

I have some experience landing at teeny airports but my home field is between 3000 - 4000 feet long. So this is shorter but when I land "well" at home I make the first exit which I'm sure is good enough to land Oceano. In all honesty, unless I take people up for rides, I won't be landing anywhere but San Luis Obispo.

I've had a change of heart due to a recent flight in the cute 150. It took so long to fly so close I think I'll just fill up and fly straight there.... hoping for the best but expecting the worst (hobbs time). My original plan was to take my time, make a day of it, stop mid way to stretch my legs and have lunch and put some more gas in the plane... now I know how many extra dollars that will cost. Besides, both myself and my passenger want to get there and on the ground and start enjoying our vacation.... having a sandwich in Hollister ain't exactly fun for him.
 
Enjoy, Kimberly. You will make it fine flying the whole way.
 
How much 100LL does it take to get a free steak?
 
Friday is "clear" with "0 percent chance of rain" - not a cloud in the sky.

This, according to a 10-day Petaluma forecast from weather underground, so keep that in mind.

But then of course the bad news:

Saturday, 10

63 | 41 °F
Chance of Rain
Chance of
Precipitation
40%






Sunday, 11

63 | 41 °F
Partly Cloudy
Chance of
Precipitation
0%






Monday, 12

63 | 43 °F
Chance of Rain
Chance of
Precipitation
40%






Tuesday, 13

61 | 43 °F
Chance of T-storms
Chance of
Precipitation


THUNDERSTORMS????
 
Um, yikes on the Tstorms. Lets hope the wx forecast changes....
 
Tracey said:
Um, yikes on the Tstorms. Lets hope the wx forecast changes....
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Chance of...usually isn't so bad. Be cautious, yes, but don't let it scare you. Going early usually beats t-storms. Also, unless there is a line, just fly around them. If all else fails, land and let them pass.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I want to start a thread, now, before the date arrives.

Here is my situation:

I was invited to attend a "getaway weekend" - March 9 - 12, 2012.

My BF's family, each and every year, pays for a vacation. This includes four generations and is usually held over a Spring weekend at a rental home / homes on the coast. The extended family each year totals between 10 - 30 people, including significant others, dogs, children, babies, and guests.

A few years ago, it was held in Stinson Beach, where my BF and I rented a hotel room (not enough space in the vacation rental). The place was awesome, and the BBQ oysters, walks on the beach, and family activities were great.

This year, I booked a dog sitter for my dog (they are limited to 5 dogs total at the rental home, so mine can't come). I even got the time off work approved (taking Friday, March 9 and Monday, March 12 as vacation days). The plan was to DRIVE to Morro Bay, for the 4-day getaway. It is about 5.5 hours of driving time each way, or 11 hours of driving total.

Flying didn't even cross my mind. Both my old flight school and my new flight school had daily minimums I couldn't meet, plus the weather would have to cooperate. Flying was too expensive and impractical.

BUT - I decided it couldn't hurt to ASK. I knew I would not likely get my first choice, the awesome 180hp conversion 172. The min. per day is 3 hours hobbs. Not gonna happen over a 4-day trip with only 200nm to fly each way.

HOWEVER - I just got checked out in the 150 and discovered I had been the only one to fly it in a week. Of the 4 CFI's at the school, only one was small enough to do check outs in the tiny thing, and of all the pilots who fly, roughly 5 or less are "regular" renters of the plane.

I approached the owner of the flight school today with my request.... first asking for the 172 (denied), then asking for the 150 (approved).

SUCCESS!

Now I am on to phase two of my planning (learning more about the airplane itself).

I have the time off, and a plane reserved, and no "get there itis" (it is a group vacation, we have days and days of "wiggle room" for weather, we can always drive if needed).

Is this really happening? Am I finally going to see my pilot cert "pay off"? We could fly there in about 2.5 hours - less than HALF the time it takes to drive.

I have already made arrangements to meet with the owner of the flight school this week. He will be working late most nights and is going to let me "plug in" the plane's GPS so that I don't drain the battery. In the case of the 150, it is a yoke mounted external handheld GPS, so that should be easy.... and it will save me time / make me safer on my cross country in March.

In addition, I have bought the POH from the school for $18 and plan to create my own custom checklist from the one they have in the plane. I also want to fly a few more times to get even better at my 150 mad skillz.....

Phase three will be my "research phase". I would like to stop, mid-way, for lunch and a refuel.... I'm thinking Hollister. Far enough away to avoid all the Bravo / Charlie nonsense, and, according to the flight school, some of the nasty MOA areas. Plus I wanna stretch my legs and not sit in a 150 for 2.5 hours. Then again, I don't know if Hollister has food but I can always pack a sandwich. Another thing I need to research is where to land for real. As in, where to park the plane for the 4 days.... San Luis Obispo? Oceano? I need to make some calls and crunch some numbers. Everyone there will be driving, so no issues about us getting picked up from the airport, but at the same time I don't want to inconvenience anyone too much.

Phase four will be the actual flight planning, and of course the "outs". Alternates, what-ifs, etc. I've already told the BF to use the words "weather permitting" with his family and have warned him that the commitment to piloting an aircraft could shave 1-2 total days off our vacation due to the coast / winter weather conditions.
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More reason to buy that plane!:D
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Funny, some guy here told me if you bring your avgas receipt to a BBQ place on field at a different airport, and yes they have steak and ribs, you get a free lunch. The coupon / offer is at the bottom of every avgas receipt.... and a certain gas pump. But still, free BBQ ribs is cool. And I ate there (not for free) and it was awesome. Called the "hangar BBQ" or something.
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Which airport is that?
 
onwards said:
Which airport is that?
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I'm trying to look it up but I don't remember where you have to buy avgas. Call the Hangar BBQ at Merced and ask them. Their phone number is (209) 384-1963

(I thought you buy the gas at Modesto but now I forget since we paid for lunch anyways and didn't use any "free lunch" coupons)
 
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