Thanks. It's a beautiful area. I was damn lucky to loose power where I did. One mile north and I'd have landed in Franklin...or had to dump into ugly woods.
The Man Who Fell to the Earth
- Thread starter Doug F
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Thanks. It's a beautiful area. I was damn lucky to loose power where I did. One mile north and I'd have landed in Franklin...or had to dump into ugly woods.
SkyDog58
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Canis Non Grata
You didn’t read about that during your ground school or written test prep?
It's the Continental O-200D engine (not sure about other variants). It's not just Cessna that uses the engine.
Lowflynjack
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Jack Fleetwood
This was my point Doug... the manual in the airplane recommends this. I hope everything works out for you on this, but the NTSB loves for you to tell them you didn't follow the manual. Be very careful if you have future conversations with them. Just my two cents!
I understand and can live with that. I'm not looking to go pro. I do/did this for fun and a challenge. Worst case they blame me and pull my ticket; no problem. Based on my last conversation with the FAA, it'll be a recommendation to get specific training on carb ice/heat and go up with (probably an FAA person) for a check ride. Since I'm not planning on flying again, no worries. Insurance is settled, so as far as I'm concerned, case is closed.
I don't think crumple zones were in play. If I'd not turned at the last minute and gone into the trees at 60 knots, well we wouldn't be having this conversation.
If you look at the CA HUD and watch ground speed, you can see that the turn, the first strike on the west side berm, and the pitch up over the highway all killed off speed. If you look at the close up of the nose, you can see that the lower side of the cowl and nose wheel hit the top edge of the east side berm killing off more speed. I'm pretty sure I was tail high at this point. As the plane slide the few feet into the barb wire fence, more speed was killed off. At the point the nose caught the fence, the forward momentum flipped the plane upside down converting the energy that would have gone into the cabin into rotational energy and I just rolled around a single point. I hit the instrument panel when I hit the west side berm and again when I hit the east side berm. I was in-f'n-credibly lucky the way the crash moved energy around me and not through me.
The cabin structure didn't bend so I was able to get the door open easily.
Gonna miss that plane!
The truth is I flew the plane right up to the point where one of the wheels dug into the berm and flipped me back into the air. At that point, I was bouncing around and think my only input was 'urrghhhaauuuagg'. I flew it right to the ground and then turned into a passenger (who wants his money back from the scumbag pilot!)
NOW ya tell me! Sheesh...timing is everything. ;-)
That kind of training would be invaluable. I didn't even know it was available.
I usually wind up with wheels in the air on the final 'drift turn' into the parking spot!
Lowflynjack
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I still hate to hear that you're not going to fly anymore, but I understand. Sounds like you're facing exactly what I did and it's a warning to other pilots in your situation. They will ask you to take training, based on what you told them you did. Better to not answer them at all without talking to an attorney first... in my opinion.
CloudAhoy gets its data from ForeFlight. I use an external GPS to get better data. I can't connect FF to the avionics in the Skycatcher so it's all magic data from GPS. I honestly don't know how the system computes air vs ground speed. The numbers always seem pretty close to reality.
I've ridden motorcycles since 1976. I've had more than one close call on 2 wheels and you just kinda have to keep your poop in a pile no matter what. I tend to compartmentalize stuff like this. I am totally fine until I wake up at 2 am to let a dog out and then I fly the last 3 minutes for the next 2 hours.
I have specifically avoided mountain flying until I took training for just that. On the day of the flight, I almost broke my rule and did a direct flight. That would have put me over the mountains with no place to land except the tops of trees. Yeah...glad I didn't try that!
Monday am quarterbacking is welcome. I'm going to put this off to training. Carb heat is something we pull when the RPMs drop to about 1500 (major throttle pull back). We used carb heat once during training on a very very cold day (20's) but other than that, the profile I flew on crash day was identical to the one I flew on every training flight. It just wasn't part of my vocabulary.
FWIW, I believe the flight school will be modifying training on their new to them Skycatcher to pull carb heat with reckless abandon.
Carb heat is routine in the pattern when you are abeam the numbers and pull power to begin the descent below pattern altitude. Using cab heat outside of the pattern when starting a descent to pattern when still at a moderate rpm (2200-ish), no. We never used carb heat there.
Correct. 2200 is in the green hence no carb heat unless it was running rough. Generally the only time I exit the green is when I'm ready to drop out of pattern altitude.
CloudAhoy takes data from systems that log data, in my case ForeFlight. If you have a way to capture a data file (FF creates a KML file) and upload it to CA, then you should be good. There is a free CA account so you can try it for nothing. I liked it so much I went for the premium service.
OK, I think I got to everyone who responded. My thanks to everyone for the good wishes. I plan to skulk here for a bit and am leaving my options open for returning to the sky (unlikely but open). If anyone responds to this thread and I don't get back to you within a day, please PM me and I'll check the thread again.
If anything interesting happens with the FAA or NTSB I'll post an update otherwise you can assume it remained a pleasant experience. Side note: for anyone who wants to fly long term or professionally, an attorney before talking to anyone IS a good idea. In my case it wouldn't have added much to the situation. It was a risk I took knowingly.
If anything interesting happens with the FAA or NTSB I'll post an update otherwise you can assume it remained a pleasant experience. Side note: for anyone who wants to fly long term or professionally, an attorney before talking to anyone IS a good idea. In my case it wouldn't have added much to the situation. It was a risk I took knowingly.
Other than, what amounted to 'ice can form any time', no. It did not make an impression. In retrospect, I'd have expected huge yellow blocks in the PoH and all caps indicators that 'THIS COULD KILL YOU' rather than 'ya know...carb ice...not good'.
I understand your point. The following discussion is not me trying to prove you wrong but to provide you with an understanding of where my head was at during the flight.
I just looked at my copy of the PoH and the section on Descent says carb heat as required, not on and doesn't discuss RPM's so I'm not sure I did anything outside of what the PoH recommends. In retrospect, any time I pull power, carb heat would be a good idea but that's not close to how I was trained and doesn't seem to be what the PoH says.
Addendum:
The expanded descent does call for adding carb heat during a low power descent. I did not think a 100 rpm drop to 2200 qualified as low power. If I'd dropped below 2000 rpm (green band), yes, carb heat would have been on.
I went back and looked and the actual cruise settings are pretty broad; the 2400 lower limit is only on a new engine. We routinely flew at 2350 which put us between 88 and 90 knots. Descent below pattern is down to 1500 rpm as is slow flight (carb heat on in both cases).
So again, I didn't think I was flying contrary to the PoH.
<edited to add extended descent information and added cruise section>
From PoH:
DESCENT
1. Power - AS DESIRED (2750 RPM maximum)
2. MIXTURE Control - ADJUST (if necessary to make engine run smoothly)
3. Altimeter - SET
4. Wing Flaps - AS DESIRED (UP - 10° below 100 KIAS)
(10° - 25° below 85 KIAS)
(25° - FULL below 70 KIAS)
5. CARB HEAT Control Knob - ON (as required)
DESCENT (expanded)
Normal descent from altitude may be made with flaps retracted or with
flaps extended to increase drag for a steepened descent angle.
Caution should be used to observe flap limit speeds. Slips may be
made in all flap configurations and are useful to increase descent rates
while allowing power to be kept above idle. Carburetor heat should be
used as needed for engine roughness and applied before reducing
power to prevent carburetor ice from forming during low power descent.
Since heated air causes a richer fuel mixture, readjust the mixture
setting when carburetor heat is to be used for extended descent. If a
low power descent is made, it is recommended that the throttle be
cycled occasionally to check for engine roughness at higher power.
CRUISE
Normal cruise is performed between 40% and 75% power. The engine
RPM and corresponding fuel consumption for various altitudes can be
determined by using the data in Section 5.
NOTE
Cruise flight should use 75% power as much as possible
until the engine has operated for a total of 50 hours or oil
consumption has stabilized.
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LongRoadBob
Cleared for Takeoff
Hey Doug, I think you did great, and I also noted the helpful points you got about dealing with the NTSB, etc, and though I am now flying a c172 with FI I was flying a warrior with carb heat and like you...we had a checklist but it was not in agreement with the POH. Reading this, I had already found discrepancies, not on carb heat since the plane I'm flying doesn't have it, but other things, where I am going to take it up with the CFI and I plan on following the POH. Someone asked if you didn't go over this in ground school and exam, but for myself there is so much to learn it is all new, I depend on my CFI to guide and let me know how it is done, what to consider and procedures.
But back to you. You did a great job because you survived and you didn't freeze up, you didn't panic (you might have felt panic but you held on and made decisions) you flew the plane and even remembered to communicate as a last point, and even if you didn't reach the airport, you reached someone, so I am very impressed and only hope I could do as well if I got into that type situation.
But I do think that you might not realize it and may still be in shock. Not the medical kind but emotional. I once had to deal with a street gang of young guys, that attacked me. I did ok, in retrospect I did smart tactical choices and was not hurt. But it took me weeks to get back to normal. I thought "well it's over, I'm ok" but I wasn't. Things like this can really sit deep, and if I were you I wouldn't make any final decisions on the future for a while longer, and would also try to realize that the violence and possible consequences you dealt with do not just wear off right away.
Usually all kinds of things go through ones head. Alternately maybe pride in that you handled it (which I think is correct) but then maybe doubt, and self incriminations that you may feel guilty as if you somehow let it happen, maybe also feeling bad about the plane itself, the school, or not. But it is possible. You might have a lot of unfinished feelings and may have it wear off in some weeks or more, and it probably is just a good idea to realize and take it into account. May not want to burn bridges.
But also it may just be right for you to give up flying if you want to. It just is right after an accident like that is not the best time to decide maybe?
Whatever you do, good luck, I've enjoyed your posts and help, and hope you continue on here.
Thank you so much. You are spot on. The seriousness of the day hit me over time. For several weeks, the last few minutes of the flight replayed every time I woke up at night and at random times during the day. That has abated and I have made some level of peace with the day and my actions.
Going forward I plan yo keep my options open. If the day comes where i want to be in the air, I will get retraining and fly again. In that day never comes, I am OK with that too.
Thanks again. I appreciate your words more than you know.
LongRoadBob
Cleared for Takeoff
Thank you! I think just realizing that a thing like this messes with your balance and your thoughts is really enough to let you temper you decision process. Just wait a little, see how you feel over time. Knowing you are not totally "yourself" and maybe treating yourself gently about it all is the antidote.
Also, you have helped me many times with your posts, your replies and encouragement, and appreciate it.
I have no idea how I would handle what you went through, AND how I would feel after. I can see deciding to stop flying, but also it might be a regret on down the road. Or not. It's nice to hear you have made peace with what happened. again, I think you did great and hope I would do as well if it was me.
The thing is, you handled it. It would be natural to have self doubt, "could I have prevented this situation if I had acted perfectly?" Etc, and I don't know the answer, but you were trained, checked out, and following the checklist, and the instruction you were given. I'm not experienced enough to really make any evaluation about the POH, but we learn a lot of stuff, but I at least expect also to have instruction such that I'm aware of the idiosyncrasies of the airplane from the school.
The fact that the school changed procedures also means that because of your success, you may well have prevented another pilot from having a much worse consequence, possibly a death. You did that. That they changed the checklist means they acknowledge your contribution.
You never stuck me as a person that was over confident or took a lackadaisical attitude about flying. You did what you were taught, got into a situation, and you handled it.
Again, I wish you luck, and I think you did excellent in handling this. I suspect underneath it all the is a chance you will want to go up again.
But whatever, you are a pilot, and you successfully completed a forced landing. That is something.
As far as the banking right being the right decision. Who knows why...luck, yeah, but it wouldn't have even come into play if you hadn't already made good, no, excellent decisions. If you had frozen at the controls you never would have had the chance to "by luck" turn right.
Luck happens but comes into play when you do the right things as well, so luck can play into the equation.
Again, best wishes for you, nothing wrong with hanging it up if you want to. I just (projecting) think you might find you do want to fly again. Later. You did good. You walked away from it. I'm not a pilot yet, still learning so my thoughts on this don't carry a lot of weight, but I know I'm not wrong about your success. I may not be a pilot yet, but whatever led up to the situation, you handled it when it happened and when it was important.
But you weren't just lucky, you were dealing with it. Good job!
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Huckster79
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Your a Captain Sully in my book if you touch a yoke again or not, kudos on all you did to make sure you would be here to write this.
I was "lucky" enough to have a close encounter with carb ice in primary training, which has always stuck with me. The 150 started running rough, enough the cfi said, "head back to airport if anything happens its my plane" That little voice inside me said "in my ground school videos it said we should pull carb heat but hes the instructor he would know, dont come accross as precocious just fly" but wisdom won out and I spoke up, he said " you can try but in all my time in these ive never got any ice" i pulled the knob, the engine went from rough to real rough and back to factory new smooth. He was a bit bewildered it really was icing up. We came close to losing her id bet in hindsight, as we didnt imedietly pull it at first sign of roughness.... could have been bad but turned out good in that 11 years later i still think of it every flight.
To this day every plane ive ever flown gets that "auto rough" thing going on at cruise ( like when setting out over open water and you hear a noise you dont think youve heard before or have you? Etc) and i pull the knob... i do often now as my c 140 w a c85 has a reputation for being an ice maker. In fact my POH calls for carb heat on right after start up till immedietly before take off... I dont through taxi for filtration but i pull it on before adjusting alt, and such and doing run up, and after testing it i turn it back on, and have it off as my last check item before take off.. in flight id say i hit it every 20 mins or so, but after your story may try to set up a regular interval so its not just a "when i think of it." Running it throught cruise for a minute here and there hurts nothing, we arent using our full hp anyway another little drop in hp is no big deal at altitude, as we arnt hanging on our prop like take off..
I will start another thread as this is a topic that deserves discussion but dont want to detract from your thread being about your specific story. We should discuss basic knowledge of it to see if theres something someone else knows that we dont that could save ours and our passengers butts..
I was "lucky" enough to have a close encounter with carb ice in primary training, which has always stuck with me. The 150 started running rough, enough the cfi said, "head back to airport if anything happens its my plane" That little voice inside me said "in my ground school videos it said we should pull carb heat but hes the instructor he would know, dont come accross as precocious just fly" but wisdom won out and I spoke up, he said " you can try but in all my time in these ive never got any ice" i pulled the knob, the engine went from rough to real rough and back to factory new smooth. He was a bit bewildered it really was icing up. We came close to losing her id bet in hindsight, as we didnt imedietly pull it at first sign of roughness.... could have been bad but turned out good in that 11 years later i still think of it every flight.
To this day every plane ive ever flown gets that "auto rough" thing going on at cruise ( like when setting out over open water and you hear a noise you dont think youve heard before or have you? Etc) and i pull the knob... i do often now as my c 140 w a c85 has a reputation for being an ice maker. In fact my POH calls for carb heat on right after start up till immedietly before take off... I dont through taxi for filtration but i pull it on before adjusting alt, and such and doing run up, and after testing it i turn it back on, and have it off as my last check item before take off.. in flight id say i hit it every 20 mins or so, but after your story may try to set up a regular interval so its not just a "when i think of it." Running it throught cruise for a minute here and there hurts nothing, we arent using our full hp anyway another little drop in hp is no big deal at altitude, as we arnt hanging on our prop like take off..
I will start another thread as this is a topic that deserves discussion but dont want to detract from your thread being about your specific story. We should discuss basic knowledge of it to see if theres something someone else knows that we dont that could save ours and our passengers butts..