The E6B mechanical flight computer.

Ron Levy said:
Next time, bring along a spare device or spare batteries. But if the examiner fails the first device, tells you the battery is dead in the second, and that your spare battery is also dead so the only tool you may use is a mechanical E-6B, s/he is not playing by the rules for practical tests.
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Surely you know that battery powered devices are containers for dead batteries, no? :) Seriously, dead batteries in a backup device are quite likely, unless you have an every-time-you-use-the-primary procedure for checking they aren't.

How many of us have reached for a flashlight after the power fails, to find all 20 of them on the refrigerator have dead batteries?

Having said that, I got away with reciting my diversion from memory, and doing a tiny bit of math in my head. The DPE specified a target that I had planned (and rejected as too short) a cross-country to just a few days earlier, so I knew the landmarks and distance. Calculating time and fuel burn is easy at 100 knots and 10 GPH (low altitude, full rich, in a 172). I would have been a bit more formal about that if I realized the scenario I was being asked was a diversion, before I was almost done with it.
 
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Henning said:
How many people just learned how to measure a diversion quickly in both time and fuel requirements with nothing but single digit addition? Are you telling me you are training students incapable of that?:confused:
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I'm stupid, I need more stuff than my fingers to calculate to test requirements. Fingers are OK for some of the other things, like determining cross wind components, which by the way, I learned right here on POA, but this thread is about the validity of a mechanical E-6B as apposed to assorted electronic devices, not assorted fingers.:D

-John
 
MAKG1 said:
Surely you know that battery powered devices are containers for dead batteries, no? :) Seriously, dead batteries in a backup device are quite likely, unless you have an every-time-you-use-the-primary procedure for checking they aren't.

How many of us have reached for a flashlight after the power fails, to find all 20 of them on the refrigerator have dead batteries?

Having said that, I got away with reciting my diversion from memory, and doing a tiny bit of math in my head. The DPE specified a target that I had planned (and rejected as too short) a cross-country to just a few days earlier, so I knew the landmarks and distance. Calculating time and fuel burn is easy at 100 knots and 10 GPH (low altitude, full rich, in a 172). I would have been a bit more formal about that if I realized the scenario I was being asked was a diversion, before I was almost done with it.
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I am an enthusiast photographer. As anyone where who is as well (or a pro) can guess, I have 40 SANYO eneloop AA batteries that are always charged. I throw 4 in my flight bag every time I leave the house.

That being said, I don't have anything that does math, that uses them :)
 
John Baker said:
I'm stupid, I need more stuff than my fingers to calculate to test requirements. Fingers are OK for some of the other things, like determining cross wind components, which by the way, I learned right here on POA, but this thread is about the validity of a mechanical E-6B as apposed to assorted electronic devices, not assorted fingers.:D

-John
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That's not the E6B, that's the wind index calculator, whole different thing. However I still do that with 'pare down' math to get close enough. The proof will be in the track whether visual or electronic. You really don't need more, try it out.
 
Henning said:
How many people just learned how to measure a diversion quickly in both time and fuel requirements with nothing but single digit addition? Are you telling me you are training students incapable of that?:confused:
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Unless you clone yourself and will teach one your own copies...Yes everyone else could be different from "ideal student" image :)
 
Citizen Black Eagle. Get one! :)
 

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Don't we love how threads here progress :)

Back more on point, my DPE didn't ask me for the traditional wind correction, distance/time calculations. He asked to see a density altitude calculation on whiz wheel. I think his exact words were, "Ok, here's a scenario for you. You're approaching a high altitude airport, and you have a pressure altitude of xxxx and a temperature of xx. What's the density altitude? Can you show me on your whiz wheel?"
 
jpower said:
Don't we love how threads here progress :)

Back more on point, my DPE didn't ask me for the traditional wind correction, distance/time calculations. He asked to see a density altitude calculation on whiz wheel. I think his exact words were, "Ok, here's a scenario for you. You're approaching a high altitude airport, and you have a pressure altitude of xxxx and a temperature of xx. What's the density altitude? Can you show me on your whiz wheel?"
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In the FEx class we learned how to shift load and %MAC with the wheel as well for cargo calculations. I've forgotten that one since, but it's in the instruction book.
 
I am repeating myself, but without getting into "better or worse", the whiz wheel:
-Is really not complicated to use (only math required is the ability to divide and multiply by ten)
-Is really not hard to use in flight with one hand, even in bumps
-Does everything an electronic flight computer or GPS does, only a little slower
-Does not need power
-Will produce errors only by user input (no bugs, glitches, freezing, etc)
-Is far more durable and temp/water-resistant than any electronic device
-Is so cheap as to be considered disposable, even though it will probably survive longer than any electronic device (including upgrading to the "latest and greatest" electronic gizmo that does pretty much what the old one did).
- Was good enough for the most demanding experienced pilots in the latest machines on every conceivable flight mission, civilian and military, prior to the advent of solid-state devices for planning and navigation


I don't get all the hatin' on whiz wheels... :dunno:
 
rottydaddy said:
I am repeating myself, but without getting into "better or worse", the whiz wheel:
-Is really not complicated to use (only math required is the ability to divide and multiply by ten)
-Is really not hard to use in flight with one hand, even in bumps
-Does everything an electronic flight computer or GPS does, only a little slower
-Does not need power
-Will produce errors only by user input (no bugs, glitches, freezing, etc)
-Is far more durable and temp/water-resistant than any electronic device
-Is so cheap as to be considered disposable, even though it will probably survive longer than any electronic device (including upgrading to the "latest and greatest" electronic gizmo that does pretty much what the old one did).
- Was good enough for the most demanding experienced pilots in the latest machines on every conceivable flight mission, civilian and military, prior to the advent of solid-state devices for planning and navigation


I don't get all the hatin' on whiz wheels... :dunno:
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I have nothing against it. I was just curious if using it was a requirement. I have a smartphone, so all things equal, I can just pull that out of my pocket durring flight planing.
 
Henning said:
Diversion calculations are simple to make using the index finger and pinky as a measuring tool. In a 152 you do 90kts on 6gph, that's a mile and a half a minute. On the sectional you have lines of latitude 30' or Nautical Miles apart as measured perpendicular between on a N/S axis. If you measure that span between your fingers you can use them to measure your route and fuel requirements in one quick move. You know you need 2 gallons of gas for each span, corrected for head or tail wind, and each will take 20 minutes. You gan also judge your general bearing by looking at the angle your fingers trace against the references. When my DE gave me my diversion within 15 seconds using only my chart and fingers I told him I couldn't make his airport on our fuel but I had us heading towards one I could on that side of the mountains. He was impressed, that was when I passed my ride and he went into instructor mode.
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I'll have to check that trick out. My CFI showed me the pencil, thumb, and watch trick: Figure out where you are. Figure out where you want to be. Lay a pencil on a line between the two points, then slide it to the closest VOR rose on the sectional and use that to figure the heading. Make your turn, then start the clock. Add enough WCA for what you estimate is necessary. Estimate your new groundspeed based on your best estimate for the new winds-aloft direction. Use your pre-calibrated thumb to estimate distance. Spin the E6-B to find your ETA, then fine-tune as necessary when you pass a landmark and can get better GS and WCA data.
 
Mafoo said:
Fine, I will get all old school.

Second question. I don't usually wear a watch, and when I do, it's a nice RADO that looks good, but would suck for Aviation.

I think an aviation watch is probably something I should have. I have seen some with a lot of the E6B functions on them.

Does anyone have one of these that they really use, or is it one of those cool features in a watch that no one really utilizes.

If the answer is don't worry about it, what should I look for in an Aviation watch?
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I have a watch with the E-6B ring. Worthless. Way to small / awkward. But it's a nice looking watch so I wear it to work.

A watch with a second time zone is handy.

spock-logic-begninning.jpg
 
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hyvu6ehe.jpg


$27.54 on Amazon, when I bought it, sets itself from WWV every night. Has multiple time zones and stopwatches and Yadda Yadda Yadda.

Casio WV58A-1AV.

One of the reviewers on Amazon likes that it always matches the clock on his Garmin 530 in his helicopter. Hehehe.

u2agehe4.jpg
 
It is rarely necessary these days to have to calculate much of anything while your flying, your GPS pretty much does it all for you. However, there is a great amount of comfort provided by redundancy.

When traveling cross country, following the magenta line, after a while it starts becoming pretty boring or tedious just sitting there. I usually start looking for something to fiddle with on my panel after I have the trim and all the air vents adjusted to perfection.

My first target is my VORs and my charts, I like to see if I can catch my GPS lying to me, so I triangulate my position with the VORs. Then it is finding a reference point and getting my ground speed, out comes the E-6B. Now I can check and see if my GPS is lying to me about when I'm going to get there.

All this nonsense gives me something to do, it creates the illusion that I know stuff, thereby throughly wowing my passenger/s, and lastly, it gives me a positive and constant situational awareness should my little yoke mounted GPS crap out on me.

Use everything at your disposal, including your paper charts. This keeps you from becoming so bored you just want to nose dive it into the ground to get it over with.

-John
 
Mafoo said:
I have nothing against it. I was just curious if using it was a requirement. I have a smartphone, so all things equal, I can just pull that out of my pocket durring flight planing.
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I see. I guess I was thrown off by "ridiculous"... :wink2:

But that's pretty mild, nowadays... a lot of pilots seem to utterly loathe or fear the humble whiz wheel. I hear a lot about how difficult it is to learn to use. Doesn't seem any harder to me than learning to operate an airplane or read a METAR. :dunno:

And the electronic toys...hooboy. Complicated, and way less intuitive than any slide rule!! I'm pretty old, but it's not that. I am a pretty clever new user, with machines and electronics, because they intrigue me. But I don't care how good the manual is or how intuitive the interface, most people need many hours with today's electronic tools to discover all that they can do, and how to make them do those things. That includes me, for sure.
Just today I noticed, after about 2 years with my Android phone, that I can add my present GPS-derived location to the list of "starred places" not by going to "starred places" (hell no, that would make sense) but by scrolling down on the "find places" page to reveal the lone "Add" icon. :rolleyes:
 
John Baker said:
Use everything at your disposal, including your paper charts. This keeps you from becoming so bored you just want to nose dive it into the ground to get it over with.
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Yes, fiddling with that stuff while holding heading and alt. for hours is like having a crossword puzzle or something: keeps you alert and helps pass the time. But a crossword puzzle won't enhance your SA. :D
 
John Baker said:
It is rarely necessary these days to have to calculate much of anything while your flying, your GPS pretty much does it all for you. However, there is a great amount of comfort provided by redundancy.

When traveling cross country, following the magenta line, after a while it starts becoming pretty boring or tedious just sitting there. I usually start looking for something to fiddle with on my panel after I have the trim and all the air vents adjusted to perfection.

My first target is my VORs and my charts, I like to see if I can catch my GPS lying to me, so I triangulate my position with the VORs. Then it is finding a reference point and getting my ground speed, out comes the E-6B. Now I can check and see if my GPS is lying to me about when I'm going to get there.

All this nonsense gives me something to do, it creates the illusion that I know stuff, thereby throughly wowing my passenger/s, and lastly, it gives me a positive and constant situational awareness should my little yoke mounted GPS crap out on me.

Use everything at your disposal, including your paper charts. This keeps you from becoming so bored you just want to nose dive it into the ground to get it over with.

-John
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In the ~15 years I have been posting online, the numbers of posts that made me laugh loud enough to have my wife come over and read it can be counted on one hand. Add one more to it.
 
jpower said:
Don't we love how threads here progress :)

Back more on point, my DPE didn't ask me for the traditional wind correction, distance/time calculations. He asked to see a density altitude calculation on whiz wheel. I think his exact words were, "Ok, here's a scenario for you. You're approaching a high altitude airport, and you have a pressure altitude of xxxx and a temperature of xx. What's the density altitude? Can you show me on your whiz wheel?"
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Hmm, interesting, but a better scenario would be that you're approaching a 12000 foot PASS with a 14000 foot service ceiling. Altimeter setting is XXX and OAT is YYY. Can you make it, presuming calm wind (no ridge lift)?

For the airport, there are two good answers that the DPE probably wasn't looking for:

(1) It's on the AWOS if it's more than 1000 AGL. Check the time. OK, maybe you don't have AWOS at that airport....or any other airport nearby.

(2) The density altitude is not important. The LANDING DISTANCE is (and takeoff over 50 ft if you want to get out again without waiting until morning). That's in the POH, and usually doesn't require a whiz wheel.

I use DA calculations to decide on a maximum indicated altitude for hypoxia. No more than 12000 ft density altitude. In summer afternoons, that can be under 10,000 feet MSL. Could be a problem for mountain passes (but you really don't want to be there on a summer afternoon anyway due to turbulence).
 
John221us said:
You should know it for the check ride, although my DPE didn't care what tool I used to do the calculations, he was looking for the theory behind it. You definitely need that or the electronic version for the knowledge test, though.
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Last I knew, you can't take your iPhone or iPad into the test area. They do supply an electronic E6B on the testing computer.

A "mechanical" E6B is a circular slide rule. In Jr High I had problems with the logrithmic slip stick slide rule. The smart math teacher handed me a circular slide rule and booklet. I had no problems with it. And it was many years later before I saw an E6B. Hey, I know what this is!
 
John221us said:
You should know it for the check ride, although my DPE didn't care what tool I used to do the calculations, he was looking for the theory behind it. You definitely need that or the electronic version for the knowledge test, though.
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Inflight replanning to a changed alternate airfield. Heading estimated by looking at chart and comparing to nearby VOR compass rose printed on the chart. Distance by finger length method. Time by mental math at 2miles per minute, fuel required by same, xx minutes at xxgph.

All TLAR, and good enough for the DPE.
 
BillTIZ said:
Inflight replanning to a changed alternate airfield. Heading estimated by looking at chart and comparing to nearby VOR compass rose printed on the chart. Distance by finger length method. Time by mental math at 2miles per minute, fuel required by same, xx minutes at xxgph.

All TLAR, and good enough for the DPE.
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Yes, that is how I handled the diversion. I was referring to the oral part, where he had me demonstrate flight planning. As I mentioned, he didn't actually require the use of an E6B. He was more interested the theory.
 
BillTIZ said:
Last I knew, you can't take your iPhone or iPad into the test area. They do supply an electronic E6B on the testing computer.

A "mechanical" E6B is a circular slide rule. In Jr High I had problems with the logrithmic slip stick slide rule. The smart math teacher handed me a circular slide rule and booklet. I had no problems with it. And it was many years later before I saw an E6B. Hey, I know what this is!
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Huh? I stated that you needed either the electronic or mechanical E6B for the knowledge test. My DPE did not require it for the practical.
 
How can the E6B be hard? There's directions RIGHT ON IT!
 
John221us said:
Yes, that is how I handled the diversion. I was referring to the oral part, where he had me demonstrate flight planning. As I mentioned, he didn't actually require the use of an E6B. He was more interested the theory.
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I did my diversion with mental math. And I didn't tell him a new on-course heading either. I just looked at the chart and picked out the rivers and bays I wanted to follow to get to my airport. Being right on the Chesapeake Bay has its perks :). My reasoning was that I had a significantly lower chance of getting lost. It wasn't a scenario where the DPE all of a sudden got really sick. He just said he wanted to go to Cambridge instead of Atlantic City. I gave a rough overestimate of the time and fuel burn and went on my merry way.
 
gcd89 said:
How can the E6B be hard? There's directions RIGHT ON IT!
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It is not hard, on the other hand I probably couldn't use one at this point, without five or ten minutes to get refreshed on it, since I haven't found a need to touch one in the last two years. During cruise, I don't find that I need the diversion of checking the accuracy of my instruments, so I use the time to look out the window, instead. Flight planning I do on my computer or ForeFlight. If I pull out a chart, it is just to get the big picture or look at airspace. Mental math gets it done in the cockpit.
 
It is not hard, on the other hand I probably couldn't use one at this point, without five or ten minutes to get refreshed on it, since I haven't found a need to touch one in the last two years.
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I think you would find that is the case with most pilots. There are easier ways to do the things you needed the E6B for, and most people don't want to make things more difficult. About the only thing I do the old fasioned way, is keep up with how long I have been in the air :). Maybe some of you that know how to do polls should do one so the newer people could see how much actual use the trusty E6B gets.
 
Thanks John. The 17% useage is even higher than I would have expected.
 
As I said in an earlier post, the wind side is by far the fastest to use in flight. It doesn't surprise me that 1 in 6 pilots has figured that out.

It's also pretty quick for density altitude calculations (that's important if you're operating in high terrain near the performance limits of the aircraft -- all aircraft performance lives in density altitude). I do proportions in my head as needed.
 
Velocity173 said:
Check out Marv Golden. They have a bunch of aviation watches. Plenty of watches at less than half the price of this one. I really need to get a new one too. Mine has no light and the glow in the dark is hard to see in the cockpit.
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Thanks for the link.

I bought a watch. Went with this one:

http://www.citizenwatch.com/en-us/watches/watch-detail/?model=JY0050-55L

Got it for $475 with 3% back if you go through Mr Rebates from here:

http://www.jomashop.com/citizen-skyhawk-jy0050-55l.html

Might be a little overkill, but it looks nice :)
 
Swear to god... I was reading this while flight planning for tomorrow. Just had to pull out my E6B to do a row of navlog calculations. Low and behold I found I had entered my mag var wrong (+ vs -)! How about that? It really does pay to double check manually.

Early on my training I had developed an Excel spreadsheet to be my eNavLog. I wanted to not have to wake up in the morning to do E6B WCAs manually before a 7:30am flight, but I also wanted to know what I was doing. I verified my formulas using E6B. However, it's not proof against typos.

The steampunk in me admires the elegance even though I don't care to fiddle with it for flight planning. That's a tedious enough task without making it worse. But I've been in bad enough turbulance where just grabbing a dial or pushing a button was a sick game. I never forget that everytime I think I can use a smart phone in the cockpit.

However, I still want to use an E6B more inflight purely for emergency redundancy. I fly the G1000 so much now I feel I'm getting soft.

I'm now tempted to upgrade my beat up student cardboard one. Amazon wishlist'd!
 
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Yeah, I wrote an Excel spreadsheet for that, too, after doing a billion E6-B calculations and then having to redo them several times because weather didn't work (etc). It's still better than all the flight planners out there I've seen, because I can easily plan multiple altitudes, airspeeds in CAS (and different ones for climb vs. cruise) and so on.
 
Ron Levy said:
The position of AFS-810 (which sets policy for practical tests) is that you should use on the practical test whatever means you would use the next day on your first flight as a Private Pilot. If that means a whiz wheel and paper planning/log form, then that's what you should use on the practical test. If that's DUATS flight planner, use that. iPad/Foreflight, electronic E-6B, flightplan.com, whatever -- use what you're going to use so the examiner can see if you can correctly and safely plan your flight.

BTW, this policy is being disseminated to examiners and Inspectors, but if anyone's not sure, just have the FSDO contact AFS-810 for confirmation. Note that there will be for some time examiners who don't understand this policy, but we've still got examiners doing Q&A out of those old commercially-prepared practical test oral guides instead of situationally-based testing as directed by 8900.2 and the PTS's for many years now.
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Very interesting news!

I suppose that if this had been the case last December when I did my checkride, I would STILL have shown up with my antique taildragger, a chart, a plotter, a whiz wheel and flight log. I did have my IPhone with FF, but never even let him know I owned one.

As much as I TRULY believe that a student should be proficient in Ded Reckoning and Pilotage before being turned loose in the sky, it DOES give the DPE a chance to see if the student CAN plan and navigate a flight the way he will do it the next day.
 
When I had my checkride last winter (not long after you, Doc), there were a whole bunch of people trying it with I-Pads. At least a few of them had the DPE declare their batteries dead once underway.
 
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