The E6B mechanical flight computer.

[Mafoo]

Ok, so I can ask my CFI this, but being I am here, I will ask you all.

I just learned how to do cross country flight planing. Cool stuff. However, the mechanical flight computer thing is just ridiculous. I give the guy who invented it props for his mathematical accomplishment, however I have no desire to use it.

I see there are apps for the iPhone, and dedicated electronic flight computers.

When I demonstrate how to do cross country planing for my check ride, I don't need to know how to use the mechanical one do I?

I figure this is a preflight task, so anything that gets me the right answer should be fair game.

 

[poadeleted21]

Ok Ok OK let me get this straight... you mean to tell me you went on for pages and pages defending the iPad's honor as an in cockpit flight tool and you "just learned how to do cross country flight planing"

Thank you your honor, I rest my case.

 

[John221us]

You should know it for the check ride, although my DPE didn't care what tool I used to do the calculations, he was looking for the theory behind it. You definitely need that or the electronic version for the knowledge test, though.

 

[ChrisK]

When I demonstrate how to do cross country planing for my check ride, I don't need to know how to use the mechanical one do I?

I figure this is a preflight task, so anything that gets me the right answer should be fair game.

A) You will probably have to show your nav log on paper after you have calculated your corrected magnetic heading, so your examiner will probably not ever see you use it.
B) The E6B is easy to use. Given everything you are going through to get your PPC, suck it up.

I'm a computer programmer and still prefer to use the student E6B when filling out a nav log.

 

[poadeleted21]

Ok, so I can ask my CFI this, but being I am here, I will ask you all.

I just learned how to do cross country flight planing. Cool stuff. However, the mechanical flight computer thing is just ridiculous. I give the guy who invented it props for his mathematical accomplishment, however I have no desire to use it.

I see there are apps for the iPhone, and dedicated electronic flight computers.

When I demonstrate how to do cross country planing for my check ride, I don't need to know how to use the mechanical one do I?

I figure this is a preflight task, so anything that gets me the right answer should be fair game.

Get the mechanical whiz wheel, learn how to use it, use it for your written test. It's a better mental excercise for "what's going on" than blindly keying numbers into an iPhone app. You'll have to use either a mechanical one or an Electronic E6B for your written (NOT an iThing App). Then when you get your PPL toss it in your plane/flight bag then download this http://www.e6bpro.com

 

[Mafoo]

Ok Ok OK let me get this straight... you mean to tell me you went on for pages and pages defending the iPad's honor as an in cockpit flight tool and you "just learned how to do cross country flight planing"

Thank you your honor, I rest my case.

lol, if you read my other posts, you know I am a student, and just passed my solo last week.

FYI: If your postion is while sleeping with a hooker, using a condom has no effect on your safety, I will argue with you until your blue in the face (or have to go to the doctor).

However I have flown with an iPad mounted to my yoke. I have never slept with a hooker.

 

[tonycondon]

if you want to do it the slow way, be my guest.

 

[Mafoo]

A) You will probably have to show your nav log on paper after you have calculated your corrected magnetic heading, so your examiner will probably not ever see you use it.
B) The E6B is easy to use. Given everything you are going through to get your PPC, suck it up.

I'm a computer programmer and still prefer to use the student E6B when filling out a nav log.

Yea, I would show everything done on paper, and would use whatever software I found to obtain the same numbers, but I know I will never use the mechanical one in real life.

If the log is filled out correctly, and I derived the information using the same thought process, not sure why I need to draw a pencel mark on a pice of plastic and slide around a metal thing.

makes me feel like it's 1965 or something.

 

[rotorhead1026]

lol, if you read my other posts, you know I am a student, and just passed my solo last week.

FYI: If your postion is while sleeping with a hooker, using a condom has no effect on your safety, I will argue with you until your blue in the face (or have to go to the doctor).

However I have flown with an iPad mounted to my yoke. I have never slept with a hooker.

If the examiner doubts your level of knowledge, he or she can ask you to draw a wind triangle (one step down from the E6B) to explain drift. "Plugging into an app" without a good feel for the theory behind it will eventually cause you problems, regardless of what your examiner accepts.

Actually, using a condom while sleeping will make no difference.

 

[CBeaulieu]

The mechanical computer really is easy to use. You just need to get used to it. You should certainly be comfortable with it should your ipad ever lose a charge or "has a heat stroke" as one member of this board put it (can't remember who - was funny though).

 

[Mafoo]

The mechanical computer really is easy to use. You just need to get used to it. You should certainly be comfortable with it should your ipad ever lose a charge or "has a heat stroke" as one member of this board put it (can't remember who - was funny though).

I have my phone as well. And this is an exercise done on the ground pre flight. Does anyone use there E6B while in flight?

And I can learn it, it just seems like an outdated tool. I know how to use a slide rule as well, but I chose not to.

 

[DaytonaLynn]

I thought the same thing when I first started using it in 2011. Then I sat down and downloaded a bunch of problems. I kept working them and working them until I understood how, why and when of it.
I also have the CX2--I still use E6b in case electronic versions fail

 

[Matthew]

Does anyone use there E6B while in flight?

I usually set mine to whatever the GPS says is the ground speed. Just a quick glance at it gives me time to distance answers any time I want.

Other than that, though, I pull it out every now and then just to remember how to use the WCA side.

 

[ChrisK]

It is important to note that the e6b was required for my knowledge test. No electronics allowed.

 

[Mafoo]

It is important to note that the e6b was required for my knowledge test. No electronics allowed.

Thanks. This is what I needed to know. Stupid as hell in 2012 to not be able to use a calculator (even though it's simple math), but it's what I needed to know.

 

[poadeleted21]

Thanks. This is what I needed to know. Stupid as hell in 2012 to not be able to use a calculator (even though it's simple math), but it's what I needed to know.

You can use an electronic E6B. I'd save my money and just buy/borrow the whiz wheel. The computer you take your test on should have a calculator application on it.

 

[ChrisK]

You can use an electronic E6B. I'd save my money and just buy/borrow the whiz wheel. The computer you take your test on should have a calculator application on it.

They might have allowed me to use an electronic e6b, but I'm in the "why buy a dedicated electronic e6b" camp (same as you it seems). I'd rather have an app on my phone and a cardboard student e6b =)

Yeah the testing program has a "calculator" button.

 

[John Baker]

When you are flying in rough air, attempting to push buttons can become next to impossible. It can also be a task in itself trying to remember what button to push when it is all you can do to keep the airplane right side up. That wiz wheel was designed to be used with one hand in even the roughest conditions, such as flying over Europe in WWII with a bunch of Nazi's shooting at you while your trying to keep the airplane right side up.

Even Mr Spock uses one for inter galactic navigation.

It is somewhat of a challenge becoming accustomed to anything that does not require re-charging, but it can be done. Believe me when I say that you will be glad you took the time to master it's use. Hand held button pushing or finger dragging electronic gizmo's can be pretty much useless in rough air.

You will be amazed at how much faster the wiz wheel actually is when it comes to planning cross country flights.

Use your wiz wheel first, then check your work with whatever electronic gizmo you think is the cats meow. The more you do it, the better you will get with it. Within a few weeks of this type of practice you will honestly wonder why you wasted all that time pushing buttons.

You are not alone in your initial revulsion of the E-6B, we all felt the same way as you when they gave us that first class. Myself, I solved the problem by ordering an electronic E-6B from Sporty's, how clever I thought I was. How useless it was flying over San Diego's mountains in the summer.

Mastering the mechanical E-6B is part of becoming a pilot, it is what separates you from the beginning students.

I always have my mechanical E-6B tucked in my knee board whenever I fly. It is fast, and dependable.

-John

 

[poadeleted20]

The position of AFS-810 (which sets policy for practical tests) is that you should use on the practical test whatever means you would use the next day on your first flight as a Private Pilot. If that means a whiz wheel and paper planning/log form, then that's what you should use on the practical test. If that's DUATS flight planner, use that. iPad/Foreflight, electronic E-6B, flightplan.com, whatever -- use what you're going to use so the examiner can see if you can correctly and safely plan your flight.

BTW, this policy is being disseminated to examiners and Inspectors, but if anyone's not sure, just have the FSDO contact AFS-810 for confirmation. Note that there will be for some time examiners who don't understand this policy, but we've still got examiners doing Q&A out of those old commercially-prepared practical test oral guides instead of situationally-based testing as directed by 8900.2 and the PTS's for many years now.

 

[Sac Arrow]

I'm going to admit, while I know how to use an E6-B, I don't. On the ground, I just use a standard calculator. In the air, I rarely if at all have to do calculations (time, fuel burn) that I can't do in my head accurately enough for the purpose of the flight.

An E6-B is just a circular slide rule, that's all. There is a reason why I have an HP 48gx sitting on my work desk, and not a Pickett N600 slide rule.

 

[Threefingeredjack]

I would say use what tool you are comfortable with. BUT, keep in mind the experiences stated above by more experienced pilots. Machines fail. I have an old round whiz wheel that was issued to me in flight school which on one side can do all basic E6B functions and the other can compute mach numbers and wind corrections. It will never die from faulty power supply, nor drop off if I lose cell coverage. It lives on my knee board although I have all the modern gismos you could want in both planes I fly.

As John Baker said above pushing buttons can be a chore in turbulence, which I gather at your level you have not enjoyed much yet. If you can do the math in your head while flying and after your electronics die, great. But having a mechanical, 100% reliable, backup is priceless when you really need it. Learning the E6B is a small price to pay for safety. Just the opinion of some old guy you don't know, but at least think about it.

 

[Velocity173]

To me the E6B makes understanding the calculations better. The WCA you can almost visualize what the winds are doing to you. Density alt calculation you can move the temp back and forth and see how it affects DA. If you do a TAS calculation you can see every speeds TAS at a glance. When you get to instruments you can figure out descent rates for a 3 degree approach at a glance. I have advanced avionics in our helicopter but I use my watch E6B all the time for fuel burn in flight and time distance stuff on the ground.

 

[Mafoo]

Fine, I will get all old school.

Second question. I don't usually wear a watch, and when I do, it's a nice RADO that looks good, but would suck for Aviation.

I think an aviation watch is probably something I should have. I have seen some with a lot of the E6B functions on them.

Does anyone have one of these that they really use, or is it one of those cool features in a watch that no one really utilizes.

If the answer is don't worry about it, what should I look for in an Aviation watch?

 

[Henning]

Ok, so I can ask my CFI this, but being I am here, I will ask you all.

I just learned how to do cross country flight planing. Cool stuff. However, the mechanical flight computer thing is just ridiculous. I give the guy who invented it props for his mathematical accomplishment, however I have no desire to use it.

I see there are apps for the iPhone, and dedicated electronic flight computers.

When I demonstrate how to do cross country planing for my check ride, I don't need to know how to use the mechanical one do I?

I figure this is a preflight task, so anything that gets me the right answer should be fair game.

The mechanical E6B is a piece of elegance in that it can be operated quickly and reliably in one hand while bouncing around. Reality is all your PP math you should be able to do in your head. If you can't, you need to practice.

 

[Matthew]

Fine, I will get all old school.

Second question. I don't usually wear a watch, and when I do, it's a nice RADO that looks good, but would suck for Aviation.

I think an aviation watch is probably something I should have. I have seen some with a lot of the E6B functions on them.

Does anyone have one of these that they really use, or is it one of those cool features in a watch that no one really utilizes.

If the answer is don't worry about it, what should I look for in an Aviation watch?

Rule #1 - the bigger the better.

And - since batteries can fail, just like on an electronic E6-B, you'll want to go old school there, too.

 

[Henning]

Fine, I will get all old school.

Second question. I don't usually wear a watch, and when I do, it's a nice RADO that looks good, but would suck for Aviation.

I think an aviation watch is probably something I should have. I have seen some with a lot of the E6B functions on them.

Does anyone have one of these that they really use, or is it one of those cool features in a watch that no one really utilizes.

If the answer is don't worry about it, what should I look for in an Aviation watch?

Something with illumination that stays on.

 

[poadeleted21]

Rule #1 - the bigger the better.

And - since batteries can fail, just like on an electronic E6-B, you'll want to go old school there, too.

Correct, Bigger is better. Your left bicep should be at least 2" bigger than your right after 60 days of wearing your new pilot watch.

Here's a reference for the size your watch should be.

 

[MAKG1]

I have my phone as well. And this is an exercise done on the ground pre flight. Does anyone use there E6B while in flight?

And I can learn it, it just seems like an outdated tool. I know how to use a slide rule as well, but I chose not to.

The wind side is FAR faster to use than any app. The other side is debatable.

If you use anything battery powered in the air, be prepared for your DPE to "fail" it. It's legit both for you to use it, and for the DPE to declare it broken.

You will have to demonstrate diversion calculations. Doing the math in your head is entirely legit, and probably favorable. But be accurate -- you may have to demonstrate that your time to destination is correct.

 

[masloki]

Hmmm, part of my check ride prep diversion training required the e6b. Somehow, every battery operated device lost its charge. Scenario: convective ahead, new destination on new course. What is your new groundspeed, because damn if the winds didn't match the winds aloft forecast? What is new time to new destination? Do you have enough fuel to get there?

Doing my post-cert long x-country I did get near enough to 0 charge on my iDevices (7 hours flying and the cigarette lighter charger didn't work) that it was quite plausible I would need to switch to e6b and paper charts. How foolish it would have been to have to land to run the numbers because the phone didn't work.

 

[MAKG1]

I'm going to admit, while I know how to use an E6-B, I don't. On the ground, I just use a standard calculator. In the air, I rarely if at all have to do calculations (time, fuel burn) that I can't do in my head accurately enough for the purpose of the flight.

An E6-B is just a circular slide rule, that's all. There is a reason why I have an HP 48gx sitting on my work desk, and not a Pickett N600 slide rule.

I have a Pickett 140 and a Matlab installation on my desk.

The E6-B is more than a circular slide rule. It's also a clever mechanical solution for the Law of Cosines, that is highly impractical on a general purpose calculator.

 

[John Baker]

I keep my watch simple, black background, white letters, easy to read. No gizmo's at all. I'm old, I could not possibly read those little bitty numbers on a watch E-B without more powerful glasses. My flying glasses are split lenses I had custom made for my airplane. The split sits on the top of the glare shield. I can read my panel crystal clear, my watch, my charts, and of course my E-6B. The top half gives me 20-15 vision outside. All this with only one eye.

In aviation keep everything in your cockpit as simple as you can. Do not clutter it up with a bunch of stuff that will be worthless in rough air. Try to have some sort of back up for everything. A watch on your arm, a clock on your panel. Radios on your panel, a handheld within easy reach, etc, etc.

As far as a mechanical E-B being "old school" that is true, but there has not been anything invented that can keep up with it for speed and dependability. It is a rock solid piece of equipment, no two ways about it.

-John

 

[Henning]

Diversion calculations are simple to make using the index finger and pinky as a measuring tool. In a 152 you do 90kts on 6gph, that's a mile and a half a minute. On the sectional you have lines of latitude 30' or Nautical Miles apart as measured perpendicular between on a N/S axis. If you measure that span between your fingers you can use them to measure your route and fuel requirements in one quick move. You know you need 2 gallons of gas for each span, corrected for head or tail wind, and each will take 20 minutes. You gan also judge your general bearing by looking at the angle your fingers trace against the references. When my DE gave me my diversion within 15 seconds using only my chart and fingers I told him I couldn't make his airport on our fuel but I had us heading towards one I could on that side of the mountains. He was impressed, that was when I passed my ride and he went into instructor mode.

 

[poadeleted20]

The mechanical E6B is a piece of elegance in that it can be operated quickly and reliably in one hand while bouncing around. Reality is all your PP math you should be able to do in your head. If you can't, you need to practice.

Not everyone has that facility with numbers, and if you have a tool you can use to crunch them, that's quite good enough. Just make sure you have along and can use in the cockpit whatever means you need to compute winds in flight based on track, heading, airspeed, and ground speed during the practical test.

 

[poadeleted20]

Hmmm, part of my check ride prep diversion training required the e6b. Somehow, every battery operated device lost its charge.

Next time, bring along a spare device or spare batteries. But if the examiner fails the first device, tells you the battery is dead in the second, and that your spare battery is also dead so the only tool you may use is a mechanical E-6B, s/he is not playing by the rules for practical tests.

 

[Henning]

Anybody has the ability, it's just finding the technique that works right for you. It is simple math where rounding and gouging is allowable. Like measuring in gallons across the chart.

 

[John221us]

If you are like most of us, you won't touch the E6B after training (I did a survey and only about 15% do). Mental math should be more than adequate for fuel and time calculations and your GPS will keep you from drifting off course, or you can do mental math to figure out the rate of drift. If you are flying in familiar areas, landmarks are easy to navigate by. It doesn't make any sense to buy an electronic version (about $70) for the knowledge test, as you probably won't pick it up again, so just learn the mechanical one for the test.

 

[Seanaldinho]

I have an E6-B on my watch

 

[poadeleted20]

Anybody has the ability, it's just finding the technique that works right for you. It is simple math where rounding and gouging is allowable. Like measuring in gallons across the chart.

My forty years of flight instructing says otherwise; perhaps you've been luckier with your students -- or will be, if you ever get your CFI.

 

[poadeleted20]

I have an E6-B on my watch

I'll bet it's only the slide rule side, not the wind side, too.

 

[Henning]

My forty years of flight instructing says otherwise; perhaps you've been luckier with your students -- or will be, if you ever get your CFI.

How many people just learned how to measure a diversion quickly in both time and fuel requirements with nothing but single digit addition? Are you telling me you are training students incapable of that?