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Matthew

Matthew

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Matthew
My daughter is a high school teacher. They had their first two days of school this week. This morning they found out they also had their first suicide, one of her students.

Please, folks, talk to your kids. If they are normal teenagers they will hate it. But listen to them when they need it, and tell them they matter.
 
I believe it is the leading cause of death for teenagers. But yes, they must be listened to and heard.
 
All the years I was in school we never had a suicide. In the last year two local boys of friends took their lives. Sad, drugs could have been a contributing factor.
 
steingar said:
I believe it is the leading cause of death for teenagers. But yes, they must be listened to and heard.
Click to expand...
Not the leading, but in the top three: accidents (mostly motor vehicle), homicide, suicide.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db37.htm

edit: I see this data is >10 years old.

edit 2:

This report is newer -
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr66/nvsr66_05.pdf

Figure 2 says ages 10-24 suicide is just ahead of homicide.

The first report is ages 12-19.
 
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Matthew said:
Not the leading, but in the top three: accidents (mostly motor vehicle), homicide, suicide.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db37.htm

edit: I see this data is >10 years old.

edit 2:

This report is newer -
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr66/nvsr66_05.pdf

Figure 2 says ages 10-24 suicide is just ahead of homicide.

The first report is ages 12-19.
Click to expand...

I have big problems with this data although thank you for posting it.

First, it makes suicide, homicide and accidental death look like bigger problems than they really are in the young and smaller problems than they really are in the old. As age related diseases begin taking their toll later in life, they are going to crowd out suicide as a percentage. For example, if you take the rate of heart disease and cancer in the 45-64 group , about 50%, and put that into the 10-24 group, it would squish the suicide down to much closer to the same rate as older people. This artificial emphasis on suicide in the young underplays the problem of suicide in older people.

Second, I hate when they leave chunks as large as 20-27% "other". That's a huge unexplained portion, a fifth to a quarter of all deaths! Are those all miscellaneous diseases or are things like "terrorist attack" thrown in there? What about drug overdose? I don't see that anywhere, could that not be significant enough to get its own slice? Is it lumped in with "accidental" injury?

And then there are all the ways deaths are misattributed. My dad's cause of death was listed as "pneumonia". But the pneumonia was brought on by an accidental aspiration of blood when his surgeon did a post op followup of an wound from resection of a tiny oral cancer. Technically the aspiration was iatrogenic. I don't see "doctor screw up" as a slice in there, but wait, the oral cancer was caused by dad smoking. Tobacco was the ultimate distal cause of his death.

But I get that this data is looking at proximal cause. Alright then, in the 85 and over category, you have a high heart disease cause but how often do they do autopsy on the elderly? A 95 year old visiting his family one day, tells them, "I'm tired of you guys, I'm going home to die in my own bed tonight," got in his car, drove home, got into bed and died in his sleep that night (true story of an acquaintance). Cause of death? Heart failure, because his heart stopped. Duh. It usually does stop when you die.

I could go on and on but you get the idea. The data is helpful but you have to understand the limitations.
 
About a year ago there was a fella from my highschool that did a suicide by hanging off of his balcony. It was said that he purposely did it in such a way, so his mother would see him right as she walked through the front door.

He was always the most liveliest, happy, comedic type of guy. One that I would have never imagined would do such a thing. They say those are the types that you have to watch out for.

Very sad!
 
Rushie said:
I have big problems with this data although thank you for posting it.

First, it makes suicide, homicide and accidental death look like bigger problems than they really are in the young and smaller problems than they really are in the old. As age related diseases begin taking their toll later in life, they are going to crowd out suicide as a percentage. For example, if you take the rate of heart disease and cancer in the 45-64 group , about 50%, and put that into the 10-24 group, it would squish the suicide down to much closer to the same rate as older people. This artificial emphasis on suicide in the young underplays the problem of suicide in older people.

Second, I hate when they leave chunks as large as 20-27% "other". That's a huge unexplained portion, a fifth to a quarter of all deaths! Are those all miscellaneous diseases or are things like "terrorist attack" thrown in there? What about drug overdose? I don't see that anywhere, could that not be significant enough to get its own slice? Is it lumped in with "accidental" injury?

And then there are all the ways deaths are misattributed. My dad's ca10-24use of death was listed as "pneumonia". But the pneumonia was brought on by an accidental aspiration of blood when his surgeon did a post op followup of an wound from resection of a tiny oral cancer. Technically the aspiration was iatrogenic. I don't see "doctor screw up" as a slice in there, but wait, the oral cancer was caused by dad smoking. Tobacco was the ultimate distal cause of his death.

But I get that this data is looking at proximal cause. Alright then, in the 85 and over category, you have a high heart disease cause but how often do they do autopsy on the elderly? A 95 year old visiting his family one day, tells them, "I'm tired of you guys, I'm going home to die in my own bed tonight," got in his car, drove home, got into bed and died in his sleep that night (true story of an acquaintance). Cause of death? Heart failure, because his heart stopped. Duh. It usually does stop when you die.

I could go on and on but you get the idea. The data is helpful but you have to understand the limitations.
Click to expand...

I referenced those reports mainly because those were the first data I found when I was looking for teen suicide rates.

I think it's interesting that the first chart (12-19) shows homicide leading suicide and the second (10-24) shows it the other way around. That seems to indicate that either 10-11 year olds kill themselves a lot (probably not the case) or that 20-24 year olds do.


Here's another suicide report from the CDC:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db309.htm

The interesting thing about this is that it shows rates seem to peak for men 75 and over, and women 45-64.
 
These reports are interesting:

Leading causes of death in males, all ages, by race/ethnicity:

https://www.cdc.gov/healthequity/lcod/men/2015/race-ethnicity/index.htm

For black males, suicide doesn't crack the top ten.

All males, by age group:
https://www.cdc.gov/healthequity/lcod/men/2015/all-males/index.htm

Suicide is #2 for 10 - 34 before heart disease catches up.

Women:

All ages, by race/ethnicity:

Suicide doesn't make the top 10 for any category.

All women, by age group:
https://www.cdc.gov/women/lcod/2015/all-females/index.htm

It's #2 for 15-24.
 
It's a small school in a small town. All the kids have known each other since kindergarten. Last Thur/Fri were the first days of school. Fri night was a back to school dance or party at the high school. The kid left the event and that was that.

Tomorrow is going to be tough, probably a lot of abscenses. Most of the students and a lot of the teachers will be at the funeral on Tue. Heck of a way to start the school year.

I hope it doesn't trigger others.
 
My sixteen year old nephew took his life in October of last year. He was a wonderful, caring kid, and did not exhibit even a minute of behavior that would have alerted his parents to any problems.

He used a shotgun to end his life. His mother came home from her 4th grade school teaching job and found him. The scene was horrific, and I try to pray for her every day.

I am still grieving over his death, and I cannot begin to fathom the pain my brother and his wife are going through.
 
I struggle to understand why young folks think this is a good solution to whatever is going on their lives.
 
EppyGA said:
I struggle to understand why young folks think this is a good solution to whatever is going on their lives.
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Feeling like there's no future? Feeling like they don't fit in? Depression? Feeling like you need to make a statement ("THIS will show them!")?

I don't know. This kid seemed poplular, and was on a lot of the athletic teams. It happened after a school dance. Maybe a bad breakup? Maybe something else.

Maybe there is no reason.
 
EppyGA said:
I struggle to understand why young folks think this is a good solution to whatever is going on their lives.
Click to expand...
Matthew said:
...
Maybe there is no reason.
Click to expand...

It’s not just young folks. People of all ages make this decision. And seldom is there a reason that I would consider a justifiable one. The only exceptions are those who are terminally ill or in great physical pain that can’t be allieved. That I can understand. But all of the disappointments and heartbreaks of life that everyone experiences are not justification. These are not a reason to kill oneself. But in the end, it is their life and their decision and I refuse to grieve for them. I save that for people who want to live but who circumstances took the decision away from.
 
SkyDog58 said:
It’s not just young folks. People of all ages make this decision. And seldom is there a reason that I would consider a justifiable one. The only exceptions are those who are terminally ill or in great physical pain that can’t be allieved. That I can understand. But all of the disappointments and heartbreaks of life that everyone experiences are not justification. These are not a reason to kill oneself. But in the end, it is their life and their decision and I refuse to grieve for them. I save that for people who want to live but who circumstances took the decision away from.
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I've lost friends to it. I did grieve - sure, it's their decision, but circumstances may been in control of that decision. If you've never seen real, severe depression, it's scary to witness.

Tough break, all around. Life is for the living and my daughter, her students, and the rest of the community will get on with theirs.
 
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In my high school days we didn't have any student suicides.

But one of the teachers did it. He was also a resident dorm counselor. We were to young and dumb to realize what had happened. Apparently this teacher had several degrees and was not happy that the only job he could get was a high school teacher at a private military boarding school.

No grievance counselors to cry to. We were told to not talk about it and to move on. And to quit trying to look in the dorm room window.
 
I don't remember any student suicides from high school either, but they may have been covered up. People are more open about it now.

The people I have known have been adults, in their 40s and 50s.
 
Everskyward said:
I don't remember any student suicides from high school either, but they may have been covered up. People are more open about it now.

The people I have known have been adults, in their 40s and 50s.
Click to expand...

There was a student suicide when I was in high school, a 17 year old girl, did the shotgun to her head thing, which is unusual for females. I heard later that she was gay, and they said that was the reason but I think all suicides have a brain chemistry issue where they cannot feel happy or at peace no matter what's going on in their lives. I had a friend who committed suicide at age 23 and I know he was transexual. Again, while that's a way more serious thing IMO because you're not happy in your own body, I don't think even then people commit suicide unless they are organically incapable of feeling good. He also had serious depression problems.

There was a book I read on happiness, the guy did research on the subject and found that once basic needs for food and shelter are met, happiness is pretty much completely unrelated to what's going on in your life. When bad things happen, say you get paralyzed and are in a wheelchair for life, they'll have a temporary drop but then be back up to their normal level once they've adjusted. When good things happen, say you become rich, they'll be temporarily happier but then come back to whatever baseline level they ever were.

That basic brain chemistry might be a combination of genetics, the environment growing up, or current environmental factors such as diet or how much sun you get, but whatever level you're at tends to remain tenaciously the same regardless of "events" in your life. So when I see that someone commits suicide because of a breakup or job loss, I tend to think they had serious problems with happiness to start with.

The exception is terminal illness. Suicide to escape pain in that circumstance is entirely different and I compare to the 9/11 jumpers, who were only escaping the heat of the flames.
 
Everskyward said:
I don't remember any student suicides from high school either, but they may have been covered up.
Click to expand...

I can't say that was broadly true, but it was definitely true in the case of someone I knew in high school. It was advertised as an accident (asphyxiation of car exhaust), but I saw the note. It was no accident.

Rushie said:
There was a book I read on happiness, the guy did research on the subject and found that once basic needs for food and shelter are met, happiness is pretty much completely unrelated to what's going on in your life.
Click to expand...

A little more than that, but yeah, there is physiological aspect for sure.

Food and shelter are basic to survival, just add money/stability to this part of the list.
Belonging: Friends, peers, love interests

If one has the above, then suicide risk is *dramatically* reduced. And, on the money front, it's not $1m in the bank. It's about $60K a year in salary. That's enough to provide the security and stability necessary in the US today. Shelter is part of that, but money extends beyond just shelter.
 
I could be wrong but it seems the easier (more prosperous) we have it the more suicides seem to happen. I don't have statistics though
In years past people did what every they needed to have shelter and feed their families. Worked harder and complained less.
Not to long ago we had a depression and a world war. People didn't have much of anything and only worried about the basics so to speak.
Today we have everything and to an excess (in my opinion) which has lead to people being more dissatisfied/unhappy/depressed or what ever you want to call it.
No one was all that jealous of what others had (when I was young) because there wasn't many things/gagets/phones/designer cloths, etc to have in the first place. There was also no social media.
 
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I’ve investigated numerous teenage suicides over my umpteen years as a LEO in a upper middle class major city suburb. There isn’t an obvious reason besides depression. They feel isolated and alone. Some did it just because their friends did so months before and they just wanted to be with them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
northtechsan said:
I’ve investigated numerous teenage suicides over my umpteen years as a LEO in a upper middle class major city suburb. There isn’t an obvious reason besides depression. They feel isolated and alone. Some did it just because their friends did so months before and they just wanted to be with them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Guess I was working to hard in high school and before to have a chance to get depressed, or get involved in drugs.

northtechsan, do you think it was more prominent in the upper middle class vs others??
 
1RTK1 said:
I could be wrong but it seems the easier (more prosperous) we have it the more suicides seem to happen. I don't have statistics though
In years past people did what every they needed to have shelter and feed their families. Worked harder and complained less.
Not to long ago we had a depression and a world war. People didn't have much of anything and only worried about the basics so to speak.
Today we have everything and to an excess (in my opinion) which has lead to people being more dissatisfied/unhappy/depressed or what ever you want to call it.
No one was all that jealous of what others had (when I was young) because there wasn't many things/gagets/phones/designer cloths, etc to have in the first place. There was also no social media.
Click to expand...

You guys need to read Tribe: On homecoming and belonging by Sebastian Junger...(or listen the the audio book)

I agree 100% with the assertions it poses.

We weren't meant to live independently...suicides go down during times of crisis, like immediately following 9/11, etc. because people feel they are a necessary part of society.

The book also asserts that much of PTSD is caused by no longer living in "a tribe"; i.e. in your unit or platoon where every man has a role in keeping everyone alive.

It's a great book and very thought provoking.

https://www.amazon.com/Tribe-Homeco...e+the+book&dpPl=1&dpID=517iB43y3wL&ref=plSrch
 
We had one suicide at my high school and it was the guy who used the copy my biology tests. He went out in the freezing cold in the middle of the night to visit his father's grave with a bottle of booze and died of exposure.

I have a theory and it's worth as much as you paid for it. Kids these days don't experience loss, disappointment or defeat like many of us here did when we were kids. Today they all get a gold star, nobody ever WON the ball game but everyone got ribbons for participation. But when that little girl breaks up with them, the only way to deal with it is to end it all.
 
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1RTK1 said:
Guess I was working to hard in high school and before to have a chance to get depressed, or get involved in drugs.

northtechsan, do you think it was more prominent in the upper middle class vs others??
Click to expand...

Hard to say since the demographics of where I work are middle to upper middle class so I don’t have anything to compare it to.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Suicide is not a normal, healthy thing to think about. It comes out of mental illness. Mental illnesses are myriad and complex, and manifest themselves in so many different ways that people are often left wondering how their child/friend/relative could have committed suicide when they “didn’t show any of the signs.” The vast majority of suicudes don’t talk about it or let others know. It’s a very private thing, and usually performed in private. The resulting carnage is often discovered in a most painful and traumatic way by a friend or family member. That is typically not the intent of the suicidsl person, rather, it is an unfortunate circumstance overlooked by a person who is in a very destructive mindset. Sure, some people go out in s manner that says “look at me” but that is not at all common. Suicide is almost always exclusively about the person killing themselves and ending their pain/misery/etc.
 
I wonder why there is so much more mental illness today than there was when I was a kid. Rhetorical question and here's some more. Is it because they didn't know as much about the human mind as they do today? Is it because doctors pass out the drugs like candy at the slightest withdrawal, outbreak or whimper? Is it because corporal punishment isn't used as much today as it was when we were kids? I have no answers to these questions, just the questions themselves.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I wonder why there is so much more mental illness today than there was when I was a kid. Rhetorical question and here's some more. Is it because they didn't know as much about the human mind as they do today? Is it because doctors pass out the drugs like candy at the slightest withdrawal, outbreak or whimper? Is it because corporal punishment isn't used as much today as it was when we were kids? I have no answers to these questions, just the questions themselves.
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I'm guessing there's not more mental illness today. I think it's further out in the open. Not only is it diagnosed more, but those with mental illnesses were often institutionalized and not out on the street for people to see.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I wonder why there is so much more mental illness today than there was when I was a kid. Rhetorical question and here's some more. Is it because they didn't know as much about the human mind as they do today? Is it because doctors pass out the drugs like candy at the slightest withdrawal, outbreak or whimper? Is it because corporal punishment isn't used as much today as it was when we were kids? I have no answers to these questions, just the questions themselves.
Click to expand...

Check the US population from 1980 and compare it to the population of today. If it's a percentage, then the logic dictates that the sheer numbers will be much larger with the huge population boom we have going on.
 
EppyGA said:
I struggle to understand why young folks think this is a good solution to whatever is going on their lives.
Click to expand...

Young people feel things much more intensely than do adults. Things that would roll off of our backs seem like the end of the world to them. We've had two suicides at our high school in the last two years, and also one homicide that claimed two lives. In the most recent suicide, the girl who killed herself hanged herself using the straps from her ex boyfriend's Eno hammock straps.

They are also under a lot of academic pressure, college admissions are more competitive than they've been in the past.
 
April of this year at one of our high schools (we now have 5) - 15yo boy.

4 yrs ago at another of our high schools, 2 junior girls the same weekend.

The year before that, two more kids from two different schools.

I know there have been others within the last one or two years. I quit looking for more.
 
From the CDC: Suicide Rates*,† for Teens Aged 15–19 Years, by Sex — United States, 1975–2015

m6630qsf.gif


https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/66/wr/mm6630a6.htm
 
timwinters said:
You guys need to read Tribe: On homecoming and belonging by Sebastian Junger...(or listen the the audio book)

I agree 100% with the assertions it poses.

We weren't meant to live independently...suicides go down during times of crisis, like immediately following 9/11, etc. because people feel they are a necessary part of society.

The book also asserts that much of PTSD is caused by no longer living in "a tribe"; i.e. in your unit or platoon where every man has a role in keeping everyone alive.

It's a great book and very thought provoking.

https://www.amazon.com/Tribe-Homeco...e+the+book&dpPl=1&dpID=517iB43y3wL&ref=plSrch
Click to expand...
Heard him speak, and followed up with the book - worth the read.
 
I'm not so sure it is abnormal. It's terribly hard on the people close to it, of course. But we've brought it with us, along with schizophrenia, and a bunch of other health issues, during our evoloution. Some measure of paranoia may have been a survival aide. . .may be some aspects of suicide, or at least the propensity to consider it, had some net positive benefit. . .
 
Matthew said:
Feeling like you need to make a statement ("THIS will show them!")?
Click to expand...

May brother in law had a brother whose wife was divorcing him. He was totally distraught over it. He went and knocked on her door and when she opened it he shot himself right in front of her.
 
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