Tesla

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Someone in this thread needs to get laid.
 
No Joy said:
Like I said before.

I think that is a dubious (hyped) representation of solar power and the Tesla.

I think it's also dubious to try to portray the Tesla as having low maintenance costs. $40,000 battery? :hairraise:

It's arguable whether the car is environmentally friendly. It's arguable whether the car is green. It's arguable whether the car is energy efficient.

The range estimates are probably under idealistic conditions. If you drive it like a sports car, the range will likely decrease and the maintenance will likely increase.
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For $3800 you get warranty AND service for 8 years and 100K miles. All you have to buy is tires. That's what these people did when they bought the car. They have solar as I mentioned. SO, what is their operating cost???? Notice I said operating cost, not procurement cost, not depreciation, not cost of money, not opportunity cost, not the cost of their house or solar, or whatever else you want to tie to it.

Let's say the car is worth $30K with 100K miles. So it cost them $64K in depreciation, plus a couple of sets of tires $2k, say ~$66K/100K miles or .66 a mile.

Let's say "A" pickup gets averages 16 MPG and gas is $4. In 100K miles that's $25K in gas. The truck cost $50K and is worth $20K, so $30K in depreciation. Oil changes every 5K, a couple of sets of tires $2K, brakes, belt, etc. The cost is very similar.

The above assumes a pickup that cost $50K, never breaks in 100K, and holds its value extremely well. Take a real competitor like a BMW or Mercedes and the numbers are ridiculously in favor of the Tesla.
 
Just be aware that those articles you're linking are very old and discuss the Tesla Roadster, introduced in 08. It's a completely different vehicle, and was produced in very low volume before Tesla was ready to produce the Model S in volume. That vehicle was never intended to be a practical, efficient family or commuting car. It had a 3.7 second 0-60 time and cost well over $100k to begin with. They only made around 2,400 in four years, compared to 500 Model S sedans each week.
 
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This thing is a beauty, and 0.1 faster 0-60 than my Lexus...I'm getting one as soon as the Lexus is paid off...unless I can convince my wife to get one sooner than that (I will bribe her with a new Audi)...

No Joy's objections are purely political - he categorically opposes everything that is (a) green, and (b) supported by the current administration. Regardless of whether its made in America or good for Americans. A true patriot, he is....
 
It isn't green. Supported by the current administration(any current administration) is newspeak for paid for with money taken from the American people.
 
Ask yourself this. In 100 years time, will:

1. Cars be electric?
2. Gay marriage be allowed?
3. Marijuana legal?

Of course they will. So why not get with the program now and be progressive, rather than a backwards stick in the mud?
 
stratobee said:
Ask yourself this. In 100 years time, will:

1. Cars be electric?
2. Gay marriage be allowed?
3. Marijuana legal?

Of course they will. So why not get with the program now and be progressive, rather than a backwards stick in the mud?
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Nope. In 100 years the great progressive society will have crumbled and we will be living in a new dark age while real men grow up and figure out knowledge that was lost. Crumbled society means either violent and short lives or *gasp* traditional nuclear family based society. Nothing else works for long.
 
Ateaist said:
This thing is a beauty, and 0.1 faster 0-60 than my Lexus...I'm getting one as soon as the Lexus is paid off...unless I can convince my wife to get one sooner than that (I will bribe her with a new Audi)...

No Joy's objections are purely political - he categorically opposes everything that is (a) green, and (b) supported by the current administration. Regardless of whether its made in America or good for Americans. A true patriot, he is....
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He's not American if he disagrees with you? Not the strongest argument...

Some of us tech types get really annoyed when someone says something can do more than it really can. Reality is interesting enough without making stuff up.

As someone who has worked in Silicon Valley for years, I've seen a LOT of that BS. Very little lives up to its hype (remember when Java was going to slice our bread for us?), but quite a number of things live up to more sane descriptions.

Teslas are cool cars. The performance is unmatched, and the electric motor gives an enormous standing torque, far better than any gasoline engine (they all give ZERO standing torque!). If you want one for that reason, it's entirely legit. But if you want one because it's "green" and especially because it's going to "save money," you're fooling yourself.

As for if cars are going to be electric in 100 years, you're assuming there are going to be cars 100 years from now. I kinda doubt that. Not without a revolutionary way to move them around. 100 years ago the dominant modes of transportation were the railroads and ships. Cars existed, but weren't very practical. Some of them were even electric....
 
Alexb2000 said:
The above assumes a pickup that cost $50K, never breaks in 100K, and holds its value extremely well. Take a real competitor like a BMW or Mercedes and the numbers are ridiculously in favor of the Tesla.
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Ain't that the truth...my Merc went from $92k to $20k in a period of 6 years!

Good thing I bought it after the 6 years haha.
 
How about taking the politics to Spin Zone. That's what it's there for.
 
MAKG1 said:
Teslas are cool cars. The performance is unmatched, and the electric motor gives an enormous standing torque, far better than any gasoline engine (they all give ZERO standing torque!). If you want one for that reason, it's entirely legit. But if you want one because it's "green" and especially because it's going to "save money," you're fooling yourself.
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Have you seen the new Mercedes SLS Electric? This thing puts a run on any gas or electric car to date. ummph.
mercedes-sls-electric-1_1.jpg
 
I'd never buy a Tesla - it's way too expensive and I can't replicate their payback calculations unless I compare it with a Maserati. If the cost was more in line with a $20,000 sedan I would probably buy one.

This is a very interesting car. The biggest Achilles heel in electric cars is the batteries. Tesla is using lithium ion batteries, which are lighter and perform far better than lead acid batteries used in every other electric vehicle. It's a big step.
 
It will be interesting to see what happens when they start lighting themselves on fire. Li-ion has that failure mode; they generate a LOT of heat and Li is flammable. Until recently, they were forbidden on the ISS for that reason (but some people just CAN'T do without their iPads -- to the point of risking several lives and a whole program). An overcharge or a short lights them up, and it's quite difficult to extinguish.

This is what has been plaguing the 787s (well, the post-mortem on the ELT issue is still outstanding, but we'll see....).
 
Upside:
From a performance aspect, lithium batteries are some of the best with current technology. Lithium batteries are generally less harmful to the environment than some batteries.

Downside:
Lithium batteries also tend to be more of a fire and explosive hazard than most other batteries.

Lipo Battery Fire
http://youtu.be/C5_-eBbDE0s

It will be interesting to see how well the Tesla batteries hold up as they become older and when/if they grow in popularity.

As the lithium car batteries age, and more of them get involved in accidents, and exposed to water and other chemicals; I suspect there will be more fires and explosions involving vehicles with lithium batteries.

Another reason that I'm not a big fan of Tesla, is I prefer to support American labor. I prefer not to export our wealth and jobs.

Part of the reason that I chose my vehicle, is it is American owned, made and the vast majority of components are American made.

I one of the many things I don't like about Tesla, is so many of the components are imported. I don't like exporting our jobs and wealth.

Ateaist said:
This thing is a beauty, and 0.1 faster 0-60 than my Lexus...I'm getting one as soon as the Lexus is paid off...unless I can convince my wife to get one sooner than that (I will bribe her with a new Audi)...

No Joy's objections are purely political - he categorically opposes everything that is (a) green, and (b) supported by the current administration. Regardless of whether its made in America or good for Americans. A true patriot, he is....
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Slanderous hypocrisy.
 
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No Joy said:
Upside:
From a performance aspect, lithium batteries are some of the best with current technology. Lithium batteries are generally less harmful to the environment than some batteries.

Downside:
Lithium batteries also tend to be more of a fire and explosive hazard than most other batteries.

Lipo Battery Fire
http://youtu.be/C5_-eBbDE0s

It will be interesting to see how well the Tesla batteries hold up as they become older and when/if they grow in popularity.

As the lithium car batteries age, and more of them get involved in accidents, and exposed to water and other chemicals; I suspect there will be more fires and explosions involving vehicles with lithium batteries.

Another reason that I'm not a big fan of Tesla, is I prefer to support American labor. I prefer not to export our wealth and jobs.

Part of the reason that I chose my vehicle, is it is American owned, made and the vast majority of components are American made.

I one of the many things I don't like about Tesla, is so many of the components are imported. I don't like exporting our jobs and wealth.


Slanderous hypocrisy.
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What kind of vehicle do you have, a Harley?
 
No Joy said:
Part of the reason that I chose my vehicle, is it is American owned, made and the vast majority of components are American made.

I one of the many things I don't like about Tesla, is so many of the components are imported. I don't like exporting our jobs and wealth.
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This makes no sense.

Pick your favorite Ford. Many of the components are made by Japanese companies, including major drivetrain components like the transmissions. Multiple engine families were German made. It's been this way since the 80s. Ford owns several "foreign" automakers and takes advantage of that. Until very recently, Ford owned 1/3 of Mazda. Is it really a Japanese company? What does that actually mean?

GM does the same thing with a different family of foreign automakers.

Chrysler hasn't been American for 5 years now. First, owned by Daimler (German), now Fiat (Italian).

There is no such thing as an American memory chip. Not since the early 90's. A VERY large number of cars these days have CANs, a German technology owned by Bosch.

We've lived in a global marketplace for a long time.

If you're going to claim there is a such thing as an American made vehicle -- or even a "mostly" American made vehicle (whatever that means), you're deluding yourself.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Nope. In 100 years the great progressive society will have crumbled and we will be living in a new dark age while real men grow up and figure out knowledge that was lost. Crumbled society means either violent and short lives or *gasp* traditional nuclear family based society. Nothing else works for long.
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Where do people make this stuff up from?

Every generation claims to have it worse than the prior, yet, if you look at the data - The notion of it getting worse is entirely false and contrived.

People need to stop watching news and start living..
 
supernovae said:
Where do people make this stuff up from?

Every generation claims to have it worse than the prior, yet, if you look at the data - The notion of it getting worse is entirely false and contrived.

People need to stop watching news and start living..
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stratobee was touting the increased acceptance of gay marriage, whatever. Except condoning homosexuality is a reliable marker of the end of a civilization. Enjoy the decline.
 
MAKG1 said:
This makes no sense.
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You're post doesn't make sense. It's contradictory.

When I was shopping for a vehicle, I considered several vehicles. One of the things I researched and considered was how much of the manufacturing and components were US.

Of the models of vehicles I was considering.The model of vehicle that I chose, was manufactured in the US and had the highest ratio of components from the US.

When I decided on a vehicle model, I pulled VINs and serial numbers, to determine where the vehicles were manufactured and where many of the components came from.

I considered several vehicles of a particular model, and chose a vehicle that was made in the US and had the highest amount of US components.

The model that I chose, had some imported wiring harnesses that were problematic at the time. I chose a vehicle that had an American-made wiring harness.

It makes sense for an American, to try to support American jobs and to try to keep wealth in America.
 
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No Joy said:
You're post doesn't make sense. It's contradictory.
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Then, you don't understand it.

Mind sharing which vehicle you decided upon? I'm curious what you think this mythical "American" car is.

The VIN will tell you where the assembly line was in many cases, but it will not tell you the origin of any of the components. It doesn't do it in all cases. You would be hard-pressed to figure out where my VW was assembled from the VIN.
 
supernovae said:
Where do people make this stuff up from?

Every generation claims to have it worse than the prior, yet, if you look at the data - The notion of it getting worse is entirely false and contrived.

People need to stop watching news and start living..
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Obviously you don't frequent spin zone. This kind of stuff is SOP on spin zone. :yes:
 
MAKG1 said:
The VIN will tell you where the assembly line was in many cases, but it will not tell you the origin of any of the components.
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In many cases the serial number can be used to determine the type of components and the origin of components. IE engine size and origin.

But like I said I used more than just the VIN. I use serial numbers and other identifications.

I don't know if it applies to foreign manufacturers. However I think most (if not all) US manufacturers have a record of much of what was installed on a vehicle in case there is a recall or theft.

Part of the reasons your posts don't make sense, is bigotry and ignorance.
 
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No Joy said:
Not true. In many cases the serial number can be used to determine the type of components and the origin of components. IE engine size and origin.

But like I said I used more than just the VIN. I use serial numbers and other identifications.

I don't know if it applies to foreign manufacturers. However I think most (if not all) US manufacturers have a record of much of what was installed on a vehicle in case there is a recall or theft.

Part of the reasons your posts don't make sense, is bigotry and ignorance.
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If you want the vehicle with the highest U.S. content you should buy a Camry. Toyota has more vehicles in the top 10 U.S. production index than any "American" manufacturer.

http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=ami&story=amMade0712
 
No Joy said:
In many cases the serial number can be used to determine the type of components and the origin of components. IE engine size and origin.

But like I said I used more than just the VIN. I use serial numbers and other identifications.

I don't know if it applies to foreign manufacturers. However I think most (if not all) US manufacturers have a record of much of what was installed on a vehicle in case there is a recall or theft.

Part of the reasons your posts don't make sense, is bigotry and ignorance.
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Bigotry and ignorance? Odd definition.

Ignorance #1: The VIN **IS** the serial number. If you weren't talking out of your butt, you would know that. You have a single engine code that says its model, nothing more. And the number of options encoded in the VIN is a short list. Typically, it's the type of transmission (often just manual vs. automatic), whether or not you have ABS/traction control, body type, perhaps wheelbase if there is a choice, and not much else. For instance, it will tell you nothing at all about the origin of any part of the electrical system. You're aware that a car has several hundred components, right?

So, why won't you tell us which model you chose? Is it because we could then verify you were wrong?
 
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Guys, please don't make it personal. Really. Take it to PM or off-line if you must sling personal comments at each other.
 
MAKG1 said:
Bigotry and ignorance? Odd definition.

Ignorance #1: The VIN **IS** the serial number. If you weren't talking out of your butt, you would know that. You have a single engine code that says its model, nothing more. And the number of options encoded in the VIN is a short list. Typically, it's the type of transmission (often just manual vs. automatic), whether or not you have ABS/traction control, body type, perhaps wheelbase if there is a choice, and not much else. For instance, it will tell you nothing at all about the origin of any part of the electrical system. You're aware that a car has several hundred components, right?

So, why won't you tell us which model you chose? Is it because we could then verify you were wrong?
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Trolls crack me up. Bigotry and ignorance are often related.

VIN stands for "vehicle identification number". Engines also contain serial numbers. There are often serial numbers on transmissions, and differentials. To make it easier for law-enforcement, some newer vehicles have both VIN and serial numbers on the engine and or transmission.


http://www.nastyz28.com/chevy-engine-code-stampings.php

I don't know if it still is common practice; but some manufacturers use to keep a list of the serial numbers that were indexed by the corresponding to the VIN. This helped law-enforcement fight crime (vehicle theft, chop shops, etc.) The lists helped law-enforcement identify what serial number parts were shipped with what VIN, this helped recover stolen property, and bust thieves.


Also sometimes parts lists were stored on a database and indexed by the VIN. Therefore it was easier to order parts and target mailers for recall notices.

Often there was a identification plate on the outside firewall or finder well that contained information about paint type, etc.

Often there was a minor assembly list with the dealer papers on delivery, inside firewall, glove box, under the seat or over the visor.

Often there was a larger assembly list under the passenger side carpet, passenger seat, or inside a front door.

Many vehicles and many parts used to have a Julian date system, that would identify the date, shift, location, lot number, that the vehicles and components was made.
 
No Joy said:
Trolls crack me up. Bigotry and ignorance are often related.

VIN stands for "vehicle identification number". Engines also contain serial numbers. There are often serial numbers on transmissions, and differentials. To make it easier for law-enforcement, some newer vehicles have both VIN and serial numbers on the engine and or transmission.


http://www.nastyz28.com/chevy-engine-code-stampings.php

I don't know if it still is common practice; but some manufacturers use to keep a list of the serial numbers that were indexed by the corresponding to the VIN. This helped law-enforcement fight crime (vehicle theft, chop shops, etc.) The lists helped law-enforcement identify what serial number parts were shipped with what VIN, this helped recover stolen property, and bust thieves.


Also sometimes parts lists were stored on a database and indexed by the VIN. Therefore it was easier to order parts and target mailers for recall notices.

Often there was a identification plate on the outside firewall or finder well that contained information about paint type, etc.

Often there was a minor assembly list with the dealer papers on delivery, inside firewall, glove box, under the seat or over the visor.

Often there was a larger assembly list under the passenger side carpet, passenger seat, or inside a front door.

Many vehicles and many parts used to have a Julian date system, that would identify the date, shift, location, lot number, that the vehicles and components was made.
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Just out of curiosity, what part of your ethnicity has been violated, if I may ask?
 
Sac Arrow said:
Just out of curiosity, what part of your ethnicity has been violated, if I may ask?
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Who said it had anything to do about ethnicity?

Let me guess; you are erroneously stereotyping the word "bigotry", as to being about ethnicity? You taking what I say out of context?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Bigotry

Trolls typically are prejudice. Whether out of malice and/or because of their ignorance, they often take things out of context to make unfounded attacks. Prejudice typically is a form of ignorance, whether it be; cause or effect.
 
No Joy said:
Who said it had anything to do about ethnicity?

Let me guess; you are erroneously stereotyping the word "bigotry", as to being about ethnicity? You taking what I say out of context?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Bigotry

Trolls typically are prejudice. Whether out of malice and/or because of their ignorance, they often take things out of context to make unfounded attacks. Prejudice typically is a form of ignorance, whether it be; cause or effect.
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Look who is talking, Troll!
 
Oh boy, spin zone hits hanger talk. Next thing you know,,,,,,,,, I'm not going to start it, someone else can. :)
 
MAKG1 said:
This makes no sense.

Pick your favorite Ford. Many of the components are made by Japanese companies, including major drivetrain components like the transmissions. Multiple engine families were German made. It's been this way since the 80s. Ford owns several "foreign" automakers and takes advantage of that. Until very recently, Ford owned 1/3 of Mazda. Is it really a Japanese company? What does that actually mean?

GM does the same thing with a different family of foreign automakers.

Chrysler hasn't been American for 5 years now. First, owned by Daimler (German), now Fiat (Italian).

There is no such thing as an American memory chip. Not since the early 90's. A VERY large number of cars these days have CANs, a German technology owned by Bosch.

We've lived in a global marketplace for a long time.

If you're going to claim there is a such thing as an American made vehicle -- or even a "mostly" American made vehicle (whatever that means), you're deluding yourself.
Click to expand...
Lets see, my Saturn is my most American car, made in TN yet it still has a Saab transmission.

My "American iron" Dodge on the other hand...
Has (depending on who you ask) between 25-40% German parts including the transmission, the engine is built in Mexico and the whole thing assembled in Canada...

You can get a Honda or BMW with more American parts
 
My bf put down the down payment on one. He is an absolute fan! We have been meaning to go to Chicago to show me one but due to time off in short supply, I won't get to this year. I've gotten as far as having a key chain, hehe. I'm honestly doubting he will go through with it since he's wanting to buy a house, install solar and get the tesla. Gotta pick your priorities! From what I've seen though, I like the car. The price tag needs to come down and in time it will.
 
Elon Musk is claiming he will build Supercharging stations coast to coast by 2015. If that really happens, and the price comes down, it may be more realistic to buy one.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I'd never buy a Tesla - it's way too expensive and I can't replicate their payback calculations unless I compare it with a Maserati. If the cost was more in line with a $20,000 sedan I would probably buy one.

This is a very interesting car. The biggest Achilles heel in electric cars is the batteries. Tesla is using lithium ion batteries, which are lighter and perform far better than lead acid batteries used in every other electric vehicle. It's a big step.
Click to expand...

And this is why I won't buy one anytime soon, it is just out of my budget, however I think it compares nicely to those high end cars.
 
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