Tesla

[No Joy]

You sure seem to have a strong opinion. You also seem like a sharp person so I'm sure you wouldn't have formed such a strong opinion unless you had driven one, owned one, or at least had some first hand knowledge. We get lots of strong opinions here about aircraft people have never flown/owned, but yet they're 100% confident about their perspective. That's always sad for a group that is supposed embrace experience over rhetoric.

So how did you think it drove? Did you have any issues with the range? Any problems with the touch screen technology? Fit and finish?

Analogy:

Someone can accelerate from 0-60MPH in less then 3 seconds by jumping off a bridge. That’s faster then Tesla’s track time 0 to 60 MPH.

You seem to insist that you have to do something first in order to judge it. So you and Tesla advocates going to jump off a bridge?

I have chosen to try to be smarter by learning from other’s mistakes and by using good sense.

If you think you want to leap off a bridge I’d suggest taking off the rose colored glasses, to take a good look and think about deceleration and what has happened others before you commit.

I have debunked some of your claims. I asked you support some of you claims. You haven’t. You keep dodging the question. You don’t answer my question yet you expect me to answer yours, even though some already have been answered.

I would like to see you post the costs, details and specifications of your friends solar system. With links to the manufacture and installer.
(don’t try to be deceptive by counting subsidies. Don't forget to count labor.)

Analogy:

A naive child’s way of thinking:
If you own a cow, milk is free.

An adult should know, milk is not free. Cost of purchasing cow. Cost of land, food, water, vet care, shelter, fencing, taxes, etc.

 

[No Joy]

....Our friends just put a solar array on their house so this thing is basically free to operate. ..

Sounds a bit like a pipe dream to me.

It would have to be a pretty big, expensive solar array to keep up with much driving. Tesla recommends 70 amp, 240 volt service. To keep the solar system small, it would likely need a battery to store energy in-between charging the car.

Batteries don’t last forever and can be quit expensive. But those that can afford a tesla, ought to be able to afford a battery. About 10K.

The maintenance costs are likely to be less, but still be a considerable cost. There is a honeymoon with most new cars, but the older they get the more maintenance they will need. They will probably take much less maintenance, but still require a significant amount of maintenance.

If you have enough money to spend 100K on a car, you ought to be able to afford additional costs.

Might be a pipe dream, but drive one and see if you still think so. I would have agreed with you prior to yesterday.

You let a drive cloud your judgment. A hot test ride, does not change the economics, physics and math.

It would take a massive area for the solar panel arrays, that would need to have reliable sunlight and be installed in a place that would unlikely to be damaged by weather or trees. Solar panel arrays can be quite expensive, fairly delicate, and have a limited lifetime. It would also probably be wise to have a grid system, and or a storage battery.

I would like to see you post the costs, details and specifications of your friends solar system.

The recommended electrical service requirements for the Tesla, is more than my house alone.

My house only has a 50a 240v service. A more typical house is 100a 240v. Some houses have as much as 200a 240v service. 70 amp, 240 volt service via solar, is going to be a large and costly system.

It's a nice hot car. Solar power can sometimes be nice. I just think they're both overhyped.

…Think about all the maintenance you do to your car, engine, transmission, etc. none of that exists on this car. Kind of mind blowing when you think about it.....

As I pointed out before, you seemed to imply that the Tesla would be a low maintenance and reliable car. The top gear test, suggests otherwise.

Once I get to the point I need to spend 10% of a car’s purchase price a year, on maintenance, I sell the car. Replacing the battery on the Tesla, allegedly costs more then 10% of the purchase price. That’s not even counting all the other maintenance.

I have owned cars longer far longer then the estimated life of the battery for Testla, without having any major maintenance costs.

I’m using optimistic estimates that a new Testla battery will cost a little more then 10K USD. Some estimate closer to 40K. It seems Testla claims it will offer the 85 kw battery for 12k PRE-PURCHASED

Could a bricked Tesla battery cost you $40,000?
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/119799-could-a-bricked-tesla-battery-cost-you-40000.

My Lexus/Toyota's have been super reliable and low cost to own, but they are just not as thrilling as the Europeans. The Tesla has the makings of being both.

My 9 year old American made truck cost much less then a Tesla, and has required no major repairs. It’s maintenance costs are much less then the estimated maintenance on the Tesla. The most expensive thing I have had to replace on my truck so far is the vehicle speed sensor.

I can get a new vehicle for what a Tesla battery allegedly costs.

 

[No Joy]

It seems due to self discharge and parasitic losses can make the battery go dead after 11 weeks on one or more models. It seems Tesla might not warranty the battery if the battery is allowed to go completely dead. Allegedly 1 or more customers were given estimates for about 40K to replace a dead battery (parts, tax and labor).

Could a bricked Tesla battery cost you $40,000?
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/119799-could-a-bricked-tesla-battery-cost-you-40000

“It’s A Brick” – Tesla Motors’ Devastating Design Problem
http://theunderstatement.com/post/18030062041/its-a-brick-tesla-motors-devastating-design

Who Is Trying To Smear The Tesla Battery Problem Whistleblower?
http://jalopnik.com/5887499/who-is-trying-to-smear-the-tesla-battery-problem-whistleblower

Tesla Battery Failures Make ‘Bricking’ a Buzzword
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/04/a...-Bricking-a-Buzzword.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

[Ted]

It's a good thing I don't only make practical decisions on vehicles. I would have ended up probably spending more and having much less fun.

 

[SCCutler]

It's a good thing I don't only make practical decisions on vehicles. I would have ended up probably spending more and having much less fun.

And how!

 

[wsuffa]

It's a good thing I don't only make practical decisions on vehicles. I would have ended up probably spending more and having much less fun.

And that include$ airplane$.

 

[timwinters]

And that include$ airplane$.

No doubt!

As the old saw states:

If God would've meant for man to fly He would have given him more money!

 

[Ted]

And that include$ airplane$.

Yep, but also my cars and trucks. I love my 20 year old daily driver. The best technology Japan had to offer in 1993!

Someone at work was saying how it didn't make sense to have vehicles older than 2007. I laughed and pointed out our newest was an '03, and when we go on long trips we take the '67.

 

[Alexb2000]

I would like to see you post the costs, details and specifications of your friends solar system. With links to the manufacture and installer.
(don’t try to be deceptive by counting subsidies. Don't forget to count labor.)

Why on earth would I even try to answer those questions? I didn't buy a Tesla or install a solar system. My friends have a large grid tie solar array, they own a Tesla, and they say their electric bills are zero, take that any way you want. Did it cost them a lot to get there, OBVIOUSLY. Do these choices lead to the absolute cheapest lifestyle you can live, of course not, but whoever said that was the goal or even relevant?

I can simply appreciate a good piece of technology when I see it. I wanted to share that experience and get the thoughts of others who might have some or likely more experience with them.

I will concede right now that an old curmudgeon, using the library for Internet access, spending nights by candlelight laughing at his neighbors foolish use of expensive electric lights, driving his old truck down to the Super Save to see what dented can goods have been put in the clearance bin, will never have the slightest interest in a Tesla or have anything positive to say about them.

Somehow, I don't think that's Tesla's target market either, so it all works out.

 

[ClimbnSink]

It's a good thing I don't only make practical decisions on vehicles. I would have ended up probably spending more and having much less fun.

Very true. There has been a mixing of Tesla's coolness with Tesla's green/usefulness. I'll grant coolness. Consumption being uncool and greenness being saintly I'd guess Tesla owners aren't willing to stand proud and justify their car just on coolness. Buying a Tesla is the same as buying indulgences from the church.

 

[bluee]

Very true. There has been a mixing of Tesla's coolness with Tesla's green/usefulness. I'll grant coolness. Consumption being uncool and greenness being saintly I'd guess Tesla owners aren't willing to stand proud and justify their car just on coolness. Buying a Tesla is the same as buying indulgences from the church.

No, it's a cool car and a marvel of engineering. I would buy one because it is a beautiful car. I'd also buy an Audi R8 and an Astin Martin DB9 if I could. I can't really afford any of them, but they are still beautiful cars I would like to own. It might be weird to me to have a car without a clutch. I also admire what Elon Musk is trying to accomplish. I like that he is trying to change the entire car business model and ditch the dealers.

People either love the car, or hate it. And the haters will not likely change their mind.

 

[timwinters]

Tesla allegedly tends to exaggerate it’s claims.

And how is this different from my 2011 Chevy truck? The window sticker states 21 highway and 15 city. I have yet to get over 17 highway and average 16. I don't do much "city driving" but when I do I get closer to 12 or 13.

I drive more sanely than most, do not have a heavy foot, but still experience these HUGE percentage differences.

What about all the airplane mfgrs speed/fuel burn claims over the years?

You seem to believe that Tesla has a monopoly on marketing spin.

I must say that you have the most appropriate handle of anyone here...well, maybe except for Spike.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Are the Tesla buyers hard core car guys or people buying a nice car with huge smugness value? Do Tesla owners have a garage full of exotic sports cars or just a couple of regular luxury cars?

No, it's a cool car and a marvel of engineering. I would buy one because it is a beautiful car. I'd also buy an Audi R8 and an Astin Martin DB9 if I could. I can't really afford any of them, but they are still beautiful cars I would like to own. It might be weird to me to have a car without a clutch. I also admire what Elon Musk is trying to accomplish. I like that he is trying to change the entire car business model and ditch the dealers.

People either love the car, or hate it. And the haters will not likely change their mind.

 

[bluee]

Are the Tesla buyers hard core car guys or people buying a nice car with huge smugness value? Do Tesla owners have a garage full of exotic sports cars or just a couple of regular luxury cars?

What do you care? People are free to buy whatever they want.

 

[ClimbnSink]

What do you care? People are free to buy whatever they want.

Don't care, just pointing out that Tesla owners are buying indulgences moreso then awesomeness. And they know they are doing that. Which is fine. Although the church is probably ****ed to be cut out of the indulgence business.

 

[No Joy]

And how is this different from my 2011 Chevy truck? The window sticker states 21 highway and 15 city. I have yet to get over 17 highway and average 16. I don't do much "city driving" but when I do I get closer to 12 or 13.

I have only owned a few road vehicles. Regardless of manufacturer or nationality; all of them got better highway mileage and worse city mileage than the sticker. I think it has a lot to do with the driver. I tend to be a good and conservative driver on the highway, however in the city I'm not as patient.

I think the best way to get the most joy, is not to recklessly squander my limited resources on automobiles; thus I have more resources for aviation.. I think Tesla is a killjoy.

 

[timwinters]

People who buy Teslas obviously don't have limited resources.

 

[No Joy]

What do you care? People are free to buy whatever they want.

It's a societal responsibility. You don't care? Are you a sociopath?

Many of us find it concerning that many of the people that are hyping the Tesla have a vested interest. It seems much like an investing scheme/mass marketing scheme. Smugness seems to be a pattern in much of the hype.

The car should be represented honestly.

 

[Maxmosbey]

And how is this different from my 2011 Chevy truck? The window sticker states 21 highway and 15 city. I have yet to get over 17 highway and average 16. I don't do much "city driving" but when I do I get closer to 12 or 13.

I drive more sanely than most, do not have a heavy foot, but still experience these HUGE percentage differences.

I bought a 2010 Silverado and it had whatever engine that supposedly switched to four cylinders on the highway and such. Whatever, it was a big buying point when I bought it. My experience was the same as yours. I never saw 15mpg in town. Trips were 16 and I think that I got 17 one time. I recently bought a Ford Escape. The sticker said 21/28 with 24 average. I've run four tanks of gas through it since I bought it. All four were between 24.2mpg and 24.9mpg and it was a pretty fair combination of in town and highway. Why is it that Ford is right on the money, and Chevy is wishful thinking?

 

[No Joy]

People who buy Teslas obviously don't have limited resources.

Good point. I find it interesting that government policies are subsidizing luxuries for the uber rich. Being hyped by the uber rich, as cheap and environmentally friendly.

Seems like more dishonest wealth redistribution.

 

[No Joy]

I bought a 2010 Silverado and it had whatever engine that supposedly switched to four cylinders on the highway and such.

Sounds like the same folly as the 4-6-8 Cadillac

http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/article/0,28804,1658545_1658533_1658524,00.html

 

[No Joy]

Why on earth would I even try to answer those questions?

So you refuse to support your claims, yet you want to ask questions of others that debunk, or are skeptical of your claims?

Hypocrisy.

I think it is despicable that people hype products, especially when they have a vested interest (greed motive). In some ways, Tesla seems like an investment scheme.

 

[Maxmosbey]

So you refuse to support your claims, yet you want to ask questions of others that debunk, or are skeptical of your claims?

Hypocrisy.

I think it is despicable that people hype products, especially when they have a vested interest (greed motive). In some ways, Tesla seems like an investment scheme.

I don't think it is a scheme at all. It is a risky high tech investment. It has potential for very high returns, and it carries the risk that it might go completely broke. Time will tell if it is a viable technology, not some guy on an internet forum. No one at Tesla has ever said otherwise. They do believe in what they are building. I believe in it too. If I lose money on Tesla, it won't be the first time I've lost money on something that was a dream. Some people need assurances. I understand that, but personally, I've never been one to take the safe path, especially with money. We will see what happens with Tesla. Right now, it is a good investment both financially, and in the future. But the thing is, even if Tesla goes under, someone else will pick up where they left off and sooner of later someone will make it work.

 

[No Joy]

Doesn't anyone find it somewhat concerning that Tesla and other manufacturers and possibly government agencies have surveillance abilities that snoop on customers driving habits?

Doesn't it concern anyone that they are monitoring customer's speed, location, acceleration rates, etc.

Allegedly: A neighbor of mine has Nissan Leaf that had a solar panel that broke. The vehicle was under warranty, though the manufacturer refused to honor the warranty, claiming that the damage occurred as the driver drove over speed bumps. The dealer reviewed the data recorder on the car and determined that the solar panel failed while going over speed bumps. The dealer claimed that the driver abused the vehicle by driving over speed bumps. I think if an automotive manufacturer installs a solar panel, that it should be robust enough to handle speed bumps under normal driving conditions.

Similarly it seems dubious that Tesla and possibly other manufacturers have refused to replace "bricked" batteries. Tesla batteries allegedly being around $40,000.

 

[No Joy]

I don't think it is a scheme at all.

If it wasn't for the hype/lies, and smugness. I would agree with you.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Ask Michael Hastings about gov't interference with car computers. I'm surprised the insurance companies haven't made those gps driver monitor things mandatory. Need an old 6 volt 1950's car to be free...

Doesn't anyone find it somewhat concerning that Tesla and other manufacturers and possibly government agencies have surveillance abilities that snoop on customers driving habits?

Doesn't it concern anyone that they are monitoring customer's speed, location, acceleration rates, etc.

Allegedly: A neighbor of mine has Nissan Leaf that had a solar panel that broke. The vehicle was under warranty, though the manufacturer refused to honor the warranty, claiming that the damage occurred as the driver drove over speed bumps. The dealer reviewed the data recorder on the car and determined that the solar panel failed while going over speed bumps. The dealer claimed that the driver abused the vehicle by driving over speed bumps. I think if an automotive manufacturer installs a solar panel, that it should be robust enough to handle speed bumps under normal driving conditions.

Similarly it seems dubious that Tesla and possibly other manufacturers have refused to replace "bricked" batteries. Tesla batteries allegedly being around $40,000.

 

[wsuffa]

Doesn't anyone find it somewhat concerning that Tesla and other manufacturers and possibly government agencies have surveillance abilities that snoop on customers driving habits?

Doesn't it concern anyone that they are monitoring customer's speed, location, acceleration rates, etc.

Allegedly: A neighbor of mine has Nissan Leaf that had a solar panel that broke. The vehicle was under warranty, though the manufacturer refused to honor the warranty, claiming that the damage occurred as the driver drove over speed bumps. The dealer reviewed the data recorder on the car and determined that the solar panel failed while going over speed bumps. The dealer claimed that the driver abused the vehicle by driving over speed bumps. I think if an automotive manufacturer installs a solar panel, that it should be robust enough to handle speed bumps under normal driving conditions.

Similarly it seems dubious that Tesla and possibly other manufacturers have refused to replace "bricked" batteries. Tesla batteries allegedly being around $40,000.

Black box recorders are in many cars right now. The Feds (NHSTA) is trying to require them in ALL new cars going forward. The data will be available not only to the manufacturers, but also to government agencies & insurance companies. It could also be available to your local service station if you live in an area where emissions testing is required (at least in my area, they hook up to the OBD port).

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/feds-black-boxes-cars-tracking/story?id=17918850

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/22/b...-question-of-privacy.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Some states are working to replace the gas tax with a GPS-based tracking device that will end up taxing you by the amount you drive.

http://www.dot.state.mn.us/mileagebaseduserfee/index.html

 

[bluee]

Good point. I find it interesting that government policies are subsidizing luxuries for the uber rich. Being hyped by the uber rich, as cheap and environmentally friendly.

Seems like more dishonest wealth redistribution.

Tesla repaid $465 million in government loans nearly ten years early.
http://money.cnn.com/2013/05/22/autos/tesla-loan-repayment/index.html

Try comparing that to car or bank bailouts.

 

[bluee]

Don't care, just pointing out that Tesla owners are buying indulgences moreso then awesomeness. And they know they are doing that. Which is fine. Although the church is probably ****ed to be cut out of the indulgence business.

So what? How is that any different than short men buying enormous trucks to overcompensate?

 

[jmp470]

Tesla repaid $465 million in government loans nearly ten years early.
http://money.cnn.com/2013/05/22/autos/tesla-loan-repayment/index.html

Try comparing that to car or bank bailouts.

Compare that to GM, who is probably going to file BK again!

 

[dukeblue219]

Similarly it seems dubious that Tesla and possibly other manufacturers have refused to replace "bricked" batteries. Tesla batteries allegedly being around $40,000.

No. The largest Tesla battery can be replaced for $12,000. The smaller size is $10,000. I think the links you posted were speculative and based on the Tesla Roadster, an entirely different vehicle with far lower volume and higher performance.

 

[dukeblue219]

I think it is despicable that people hype products, especially when they have a vested interest (greed motive). In some ways, Tesla seems like an investment scheme.

How is it an investment scheme? They make a real product that real people own (I've see them several times a week), and they are selling as fast as they can make them. They're already outselling the Leaf and Volt, and the company is not only run by people with real experience and real money, but is profitable.

Consumer Reports gave it their highest ever rating. Do you really think that's just hype to con everyone into buying one?

 

[No Joy]

Black box recorders are in many cars right now. The Feds (NHSTA) is trying to require them in ALL new cars going forward. The data will be available not only to the manufacturers, but also to government agencies & insurance companies. It could also be available to your local service station if you live in an area where emissions testing is required (at least in my area, they hook up to the OBD port).

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/feds-black-boxes-cars-tracking/story?id=17918850

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/22/b...-question-of-privacy.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Some states are working to replace the gas tax with a GPS-based tracking device that will end up taxing you by the amount you drive.

http://www.dot.state.mn.us/mileagebaseduserfee/index.html

If this technology was only used ethically by crash investigators and mechanics; I wouldn't have much problem with it.

When the government mandated these recorders and surveillance capabilities, we were assured by politicians and advocates (many of them self-proclaimed experts) that the technology would safeguard our privacy, not be abused, and not compromise our safety.

Many years later, I see where there appears to be breaches of privacy, other abuses and serious safety concerns. Some of this technology can be used by criminals, terrorists and government regimes.

Technology is a double-edged sword. Tesla and some other entities seems to have used the technology for both good and evil. If they use this technology to unethically void customer warranties; then they have started down the slippery slope. Supposedly dealerships could activate electrical devices, to prematurely drain batteries to "brick" the batteries to void the warranty. The customer would probably be none the wiser. Supposedly, door locks, brakes, engine controls, steering, could be overridden to deny access, damage or cause injury.

Tampering with a car’s brakes and speed by hacking its computers
http://arstechnica.com/security/201...-speed-by-hacking-its-computers-a-new-how-to/

Highway Robbery: Car Computer Controls Could Be Vulnerable to Hackers
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=wireless-car-hacking

 

[Alexb2000]

So you refuse to support your claims, yet you want to ask questions of others that debunk, or are skeptical of your claims?

Hypocrisy.

I think it is despicable that people hype products, especially when they have a vested interest (greed motive). In some ways, Tesla seems like an investment scheme.

I'm not making any claims, other than I liked the car. That's my opinion and it is certainly as valid as any including yours. I'm also not hyping anything, I don't own the car or the stock. I haven't seen anyone else hyping Tesla either, perhaps you are confusing that with having an open mind.

People today like to believe that being a constant critic makes them seem smart. IMO it just makes them seem sad. Or said another way lacking joy.

 

[No Joy]

How is it an investment scheme? They make a real product that real people own (I've see them several times a week), and they are selling as fast as they can make them. They're already outselling the Leaf and Volt, and the company is not only run by people with real experience and real money, but is profitable.

Consumer Reports gave it their highest ever rating. Do you really think that's just hype to con everyone into buying one?

Just because a product is real and real people own the products, doesn't mean the products aren't being hyped. It doesn't mean that investors don't hype the product.

In several ways the Tesla is a nice car. 0-60 is great, especially for the purchase price. Just because it it has some good qualities, doesn't mean that it isn't hyped and falsely represented in other ways. Nor does it mean that the company does a good job standing behind its product.

Hype and cons are profitable, that's why they are commonplace.

 

[No Joy]

... so this thing is basically free to operate....

Like I said before.

I think that is a dubious (hyped) representation of solar power and the Tesla.

I think it's also dubious to try to portray the Tesla as having low maintenance costs. $40,000 battery?

It's arguable whether the car is environmentally friendly. It's arguable whether the car is green. It's arguable whether the car is energy efficient.

The range estimates are probably under idealistic conditions. If you drive it like a sports car, the range will likely decrease and the maintenance will likely increase.

 

[jmp470]

No Joy did you short the stock??? If so, I see why you are bitter, as that was amazing short squeeze!!!! Besides that, what did Telsa do to **** you off so bad?

Drive any car like a sports car and your milage will decrease and your maintenance will likely increase. Go drive a Porsche 911 around a track a few times... You will not be happy with the fuel flow, I promise.

 

[bluee]

Like I said before.

I think that is a dubious (hyped) representation of solar power and the Tesla.

I think it's also dubious to try to portray the Tesla as having low maintenance costs. $40,000 battery?

.

Wrong.

The automaker has also revealed pricing for battery replacements. Taking the mystery out of the one maintenance detail that scares many about electric cars, Tesla says that $8000 will buy 40 kW-hr Model S customers a new battery to be installed at any time after the eighth year of ownership. The cost rises to $10,000 for the 60 kW-hr battery and $12,000 for the 85 kW-hr battery.

http://wot.motortrend.com/tesla-mod...nt-costs-8000-12000-298793.html#axzz2akaXYimW

 

[No Joy]

Wrong.



http://wot.motortrend.com/tesla-mod...nt-costs-8000-12000-298793.html#axzz2akaXYimW

Allegedly one or more customers have been quoted $40,000. Perhaps that was a different model, or they were just charging more at the time? Perhaps they were just gouging customers? perhaps the lower price is for batteries that are not "bricked"? Perhaps the higher price is for batteries that are "bricked"?

I've seen the seeming discrepancies in Tesla battery costs before, but haven't seen any official explanation.

Even if it is $12,000, that's hardly cheap. That's much more than I spent on maintenance on my vehicle for the past nine years. So that flies in the face of those that claim that Tesla is cheap to maintain.


Could a bricked Tesla battery cost you $40,000?
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/119799-could-a-bricked-tesla-battery-cost-you-40000

“It’s A Brick” - Tesla Motors’ Devastating Design Problem
http://theunderstatement.com/post/18030062041/its-a-brick-tesla-motors-devastating-design

Who Is Trying To Smear The Tesla Battery Problem Whistleblower?
http://jalopnik.com/5887499/who-is-trying-to-smear-the-tesla-battery-problem-whistleblower

Tesla Battery Failures Make ‘Bricking’ a Buzzword
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/04/a...-Bricking-a-Buzzword.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

[bluee]

You have made it clear you don't like the Tesla, which, btw, you stressed your American made cars, yet Tesla is American made. Fine, you don't like it, don't buy one.