Tesla Model 3 - Now I get the hype.

FastEddieB said:
We test drove a Volt and liked it a lot. But then looked at and tested our Clarity and it was the winner in a lot of areas. We have 23,000 trouble-free miles on ours in just under a year, including many road trips where it yields 42 mpg as a hybrid when you can’t conveniently plug in.

Aggravatingly, Honda is shipping all new Clarity PHEV’s to California. They allegedly can be ordered from dealers nationwide, but word has it many dealers are reluctant to do so. Hope that changes for 2020 - it’s a great transition car as EV’s and their related infrastructure continue to improve.
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That’s probably the better choice. I don’t think Chevy supports the Volt well. A lot of stories about expensive repairs or malfunctions that the Volt Tech doesn’t understand. My dealer has only one Volt Tech so I have to schedule around him being there.

I’m not big on the looks of the new (gen 2) Volt either. Looks like a smaller Cruze.
 
I don't mind electric. I just hate batteries. Every damn time I go to to a job with a battery operated tool, even if that battery is fresh off the charger, no matter what size the job, it quits half way through the job. I'll stick with my cords. Cords and C8H18. Batteries have a conspiracy against me.
 
EdFred said:
I don't mind electric. I just hate batteries. Every damn time I go to to a job with a battery operated tool, even if that battery is fresh off the charger, no matter what size the job, it quits half way through the job. I'll stick with my cords. Cords and C8H18. Batteries have a conspiracy against me.
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Some of the battery-powered stuff is okay. I have a Husqvarna cordless chainsaw that comes in handy for felling the occasional tree that's ready to topple over or clear away the ones that already have. I don't know how many cuts it would make before the battery would need charging because it's never gotten to that point. I rarely have more than two trees I need to deal with.

I also have a leaf blower and a weed whacker that use the same batteries, so I have three batteries. I didn't so much need all three two tools as bought them because I wanted the extra batteries, and the prices for the tools with the batteries were almost the same as for the batteries alone. The weed whacker has never completely run the battery down. The leaf blower, on the other hand, uses two fully-charged batteries and sometimes needs the third battery to finish the job.

I also have a DeWalt electric drill and impact driver that came as a set, along with two batteries. I wouldn't use the drill for drywalling my basement, but it comes in handy for working on the car, hanging a shelf, or other odds and ends. But yeah, for anything more than that, I break out the corded drill.

Rich
 
RJM62 said:
Some time around then. I think it coincided with more families owning two cars. In addition to milk, many other products were either delivered or sold door-to-door back then. Few families in Brooklyn owned two cars (and many women didn't even have drivers' licenses) back then, so the delivery services and door-to-door salesmen were useful to and popular with stay-at-home housewives and moms. That started to change in the 70's.

Rich
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We lived in Monroeville (suburb of Pittsburgh, PA) at that time. We also had Charles Chips delivered in a large lidded tin.
 
FastEddieB said:
Aggravatingly, Honda is shipping all new Clarity PHEV’s to California. They allegedly can be ordered from dealers nationwide, but word has it many dealers are reluctant to do so. Hope that changes for 2020 - it’s a great transition car as EV’s and their related infrastructure continue to improve.
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Ah, welcome to the world of owning an EV - And a compliance car, at that - produced by a legacy manufacturer. I really wish they would get their act together, train ALL their dealers to properly sell and service them, and get them out on lots outside California and the other CARB states. But, the reality is that they don't want to sell EVs at all, even PHEVs. :(

RJM62 said:
I also have a leaf blower and a weed whacker that use the same batteries, so I have three batteries. I didn't so much need all three two tools as bought them because I wanted the extra batteries, and the prices for the tools with the batteries were almost the same as for the batteries alone. The weed whacker has never completely run the battery down. The leaf blower, on the other hand, uses two fully-charged batteries and sometimes needs the third battery to finish the job.
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Check and see if it's actually dead, though, or just getting cut off because it's too hot. On rare occasions I've had a battery "die" but then I can use it again after it's sat and cooled down for 20-30 minutes. It's definitely a good idea to have multiple batteries if you're going to be working all day with several tools.
 
Katamarino said:
I don't know why anyone would buy a gas car. You have to take them to a station to refuel, and they cost money on maintenance and replacing parts. It's idiotic.
.
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Why buy a gas car? Because they don’t make an electric GT500, and there is no way to reproduce the sound, smell or feel of that.


 
flyingcheesehead said:
Ah, welcome to the world of owning an EV - And a compliance car, at that - produced by a legacy manufacturer. I really wish they would get their act together, train ALL their dealers to properly sell and service them, and get them out on lots outside California and the other CARB states. But, the reality is that they don't want to sell EVs at all, even PHEVs. :(.
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I thought this was hyperbole at first, but when I ordered a Leaf a few years ago I went through exactly that. I had to go to 4 dealers before I found someone who would sell one to me.

1) The first dealer came out to my car as I pulled up, and when I said I was looking for a Leaf he told me that the guy who sells Leafs only work on Wednesdays and Fridays and he’ll give me a call. He never did.
2) Second dealer couldn’t find the Leafs on their lot. Their paperwork said they had a couple but he couldn’t find them. Didn’t offer that I should come back later - just “Sorry, I can’t find them”
3) Third dealer had one but in a bad color. We asked if he can order a different color, but he wasn’t able. This one is understandable.

Can you ever imagine in your life going into a Toyota or Ford dealer and wanting to buy a gasoline car and the sales staff tells you “eh.. come back another day”? Or “I can’t find them - sorry”. It’s surreal.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Ah, welcome to the world of owning an EV - And a compliance car, at that - produced by a legacy manufacturer. I really wish they would get their act together, train ALL their dealers to properly sell and service them, and get them out on lots outside California and the other CARB states. But, the reality is that they don't want to sell EVs at all, even PHEVs. :(
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Yep, the model for a dealership is really making money on maintenance; they make some on the sale, extras and financing.

With EVs the maintenance is largely gone. What's left can be done by any tire store; balancing, rotating, alignment, plus new tires and brakes. I'm sure there's the occasional thing, but not much.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
That's what I have! And it's an OK compromise vehicle, and a GREAT first step into EVs. And it does give most people 90% of the advantages of an EV for less money than a Tesla.

Unfortunately, and ironically, it no longer meets my needs because it doesn't have enough range. :rofl: My daily commute (round trip) is 65 miles to my office downtown or 75 miles to the airport on the days I fly. We're moving into a facility at the airport that will have car charging for me on the days I'm not flying, and in another year or so I'll be able to charge on the days I am flying, so that will certainly help... But in the dead of winter, or on my downtown days, I'll still be burning gas every day.

I like how they do their calculations in the video, but they make a couple of assumptions: One is that everyone is production-constrained when it comes to batteries. That's not true - Nobody can't get the batteries they need to build their EVs at this point, and even if we do become production-constrained overall, Tesla makes their own batteries and still isn't production-constrained.

It would have made a little more sense to look at a distribution of yearly earnings in the US and see how much car people can afford, and look at it from that angle instead. The Volt still compares favorably there. I got mine for under $10K, so it's quite economical.

Amazingly enough, the Teslas are holding their value so well that I may well end up with a brand new one when I do make the leap. I'm seeing used prices for cars that are a couple years old with 30K± miles on them for within 5% of new prices. That value retention is unheard of in the automotive industry!
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With your drive the Tesla makes the most sense, especially since your employer will let you charge it there. A gen 2 would fit the bill for your work commute but I’m not a fan of the new style. All these new car look like something out of Transformers. I prefer smooth, classy styling vs something a 13 year old designed.

I’ve really been looking forward to some new entries in the EV market but none of them are a sub $30K car. The new VWs are going to start around $40K and the Jaguar I-Pace is well outside my range. Can’t believe that a low cost EV isn’t being offered these days.
 
RJM62 said:
So really, electric vehicles aren't a new idea at all.[/QUOTE

In 1895 there were more electric vehicles on the road than gas engine vehicles. Sure, the electric car only did up to 15mph and only had a range of 13-15 miles, but with the road conditions of the time that was pretty incredible.
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tspear said:
https://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/leaf-2019/?pth=6

$29K before any rebates on the base model. 200 mile range now.

Tim
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I think they did a good job of improving the looks over the previous version but I’m still not big on the Leaf. After you add any of the most common features, it’s pushing into the upper $30K range. I think this guy’s review sums it up for me. Might as well go with a Model 3.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/reviews/2019-nissan-leaf-plus-review/
 
Velocity173 said:
With your drive the Tesla makes the most sense, especially since your employer will let you charge it there. A gen 2 would fit the bill for your work commute but I’m not a fan of the new style.
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Well, I can work from three places (the boss/CEO has two companies, I work where he is when I'm not flying): Downtown office (65 mi round trip, no charging), Airport office (75+ mi round trip, charging), or airport FBO (75 mi, no charging). The gen-1 Volt only kinda works at one of them under good conditions... And those are about to end. The Gen-2 Volt would work for the airport office all year with the charging, but still won't make the round trip at either of the other locations, though it'll certainly burn less gas.

All these new car look like something out of Transformers. I prefer smooth, classy styling vs something a 13 year old designed.
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See "they don't really want to sell them." They also seem to be desperately trying to break the mold and look "futuristic" but I wish they would focus those efforts on better-designed propulsion systems than looks. The Teslas have everyone beat in this area too, hands down. Other EVs tend to look weird, with a few exceptions, mostly those that are electrified versions of gas cars like the Ford Fusion Energi.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Well, I can work from three places (the boss/CEO has two companies, I work where he is when I'm not flying): Downtown office (65 mi round trip, no charging), Airport office (75+ mi round trip, charging), or airport FBO (75 mi, no charging). The gen-1 Volt only kinda works at one of them under good conditions... And those are about to end. The Gen-2 Volt would work for the airport office all year with the charging, but still won't make the round trip at either of the other locations, though it'll certainly burn less gas.



See "they don't really want to sell them." They also seem to be desperately trying to break the mold and look "futuristic" but I wish they would focus those efforts on better-designed propulsion systems than looks. The Teslas have everyone beat in this area too, hands down. Other EVs tend to look weird, with a few exceptions, mostly those that are electrified versions of gas cars like the Ford Fusion Energi.
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Kinda interested in how the Mach E will look.

https://www.caranddriver.com/ford/mach-e
 
Velocity173 said:
I prefer smooth, classy styling vs something a 13 year old designed.
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Its apparent from looking at virtually all modern sedans that there is one basic shape that minimizes aerodynamic drag. Vary far from that and pay penalties in gas mileage. All the manufacturers can do is play with trim and “character lines” and the like.

I see that when I try to spot another Clarity*. Myriad Accords, Camry’s, Sentra’s and Kias and Hyundai’s all look nearly identical. All I can do is try to spot the distinctive daytime running lights and the controversial rear wheel spats.


*Only 5 spotted in about 10 months and 23,000 miles!
 
FastEddieB said:
Its apparent from looking at virtually all modern sedans that there is one basic shape that minimizes aerodynamic drag. Vary far from that and pay penalties in gas mileage. All the manufacturers can do is play with trim and “character lines” and the like.

I see that when I try to spot another Clarity*. Myriad Accords, Camry’s, Sentra’s and Kias and Hyundai’s all look nearly identical. All I can do is try to spot the distinctive daytime running lights and the controversial rear wheel spats.


*Only 5 spotted in about 10 months and 23,000 miles!
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That’s where Tesla did their homework though. They created a pleasant shape and pulled it off with only a 0.23 drag coefficient. Chevy spent 600 hrs in the wind tunnel on the Volt. That’s about 3 times the amount that they normally spend on a new design. The best they could squeak out was a 0.28. Still respectable but Tesla shines in the aerodynamics department.
 
FastEddieB said:
Its apparent from looking at virtually all modern sedans that there is one basic shape that minimizes aerodynamic drag. Vary far from that and pay penalties in gas mileage. All the manufacturers can do is play with trim and “character lines” and the like.

I see that when I try to spot another Clarity*. Myriad Accords, Camry’s, Sentra’s and Kias and Hyundai’s all look nearly identical. All I can do is try to spot the distinctive daytime running lights and the controversial rear wheel spats.


*Only 5 spotted in about 10 months and 23,000 miles!
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I dunno. My Kia Soul gets between 35 and 42 MPG (depending on conditions, tires, fuel, etc.), and it's about as aerodynamic as a brick.

Of course, it always has a good coat of wax on it, which adds 1 - 2 MPG.

Rich
 
FastEddieB said:
Its apparent from looking at virtually all modern sedans that there is one basic shape that minimizes aerodynamic drag. Vary far from that and pay penalties in gas mileage. All the manufacturers can do is play with trim and “character lines” and the like.

I see that when I try to spot another Clarity*. Myriad Accords, Camry’s, Sentra’s and Kias and Hyundai’s all look nearly identical. All I can do is try to spot the distinctive daytime running lights and the controversial rear wheel spats.


*Only 5 spotted in about 10 months and 23,000 miles!
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Some of that is aerodynamics, some of that is US regulatory measures which have had the byproduct of limiting automotive design. Where crumple zones must be, bumper/marker/headlight/tailight angles/heights, etc. have all been written in law which forces designs to abide by those rules. When certain things have to be in the same position on every vehicle, it only lends itself to so many iterations across all makes/models.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Some of that is aerodynamics, some of that is US regulatory measures which have had the byproduct of limiting automotive design. Where crumple zones must be, bumper/marker/headlight/tailight angles/heights, etc. have all been written in law which forces designs to abide by those rules. When certain things have to be in the same position on every vehicle, it only lends itself to so many iterations across all makes/models.
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The way around that is form a bunch of small companies which produce less than x number of cars per company per year. Then just contract to have the large company be a subcontractor, and you can eliminate having all that crap they mandate.
 
EdFred said:
The way around that is form a bunch of small companies which produce less than x number of cars per company per year. Then just contract to have the large company be a subcontractor, and you can eliminate having all that crap they mandate.
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Seems to be working for a handful of kit-car companies like Factory Five Racing.
 
Velocity173 said:
Chevy spent 600 hrs in the wind tunnel on the Volt. That’s about 3 times the amount that they normally spend on a new design. The best they could squeak out was a 0.28.
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There's only so much you can do to bring down drag coefficient on a weirdmobile design.
 
FastEddieB said:
But the question is, how much better would the mileage be if the car’s design were more aerodynamic?

That said, the 2020 Kia Soul EV looks like a nice offering, with range of an estimated 258 miles.
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I hope Kia and Hyundai start kicking the volume up and shipping these cars to more than 12 states. That will help get the pricing down. I like the Kia Niro EV; at least what I've seen online. I haven't driven one yet.
 
FastEddieB said:
But the question is, how much better would the mileage be if the car’s design were more aerodynamic?

That said, the 2020 Kia Soul EV looks like a nice offering, with range of an estimated 258 miles.

https://ride.tech/electric-and-hybr...b7Eh_EqBS7vslxec58ceWoz3g7z2FwHBoCjpEQAvD_BwE
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Yeah, my dealership is trying to sell me one. But I'm not in the market. As I said earlier: it just doesn't work out mathematically for me; I already have a car I like that's under warranty; and I think the progress in EV's over the next few years is going to rapidly obsolesce those being sold today.

That being said, I like the Soul's design. The interior is roomier than in most big cars I've owned because of the boxy design. Everyone whose first ride in a Soul has been in one of mine has said the same thing: It seems bigger on the inside than the outside. The back seat in particular is much more roomy than in most other cars I've owned. I don't have to feel guilty about putting adults back there. It feels more business-class than coach.

I also like Kia as a company. All the Kias I've owned have been reliable cars. They're also relatively easy to work on. For example, all of my Kias have had a door under the rear seat so the fuel pump can be replaced without having to drop the tank. Things like that make a difference if you plan to hold on to a car. They seem to be designed with the fact that someone will have to work on them some day in mind.

I also like the fact that the ones that aren't made in the US are made in South Korea, because South Korea is one of the few countries that still likes us and buys our stuff in return.

So yeah, if I were in the market for an EV today, it probably would be the 2020 Soul. I've had nothing but good experiences with Kia cars, and I like the Soul's design. Maybe when the warranty runs out on my ICE Soul, I'll buy a Soul EV. Maybe even before if they get the price point down just a bit.

Rich
 
wayne said:
I hope Kia and Hyundai start kicking the volume up and shipping these cars to more than 12 states. That will help get the pricing down. I like the Kia Niro EV; at least what I've seen online. I haven't driven one yet.
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I came this close ->||<- to buying the Niro plug-in hybrid. But the math just didn't work out. Electricity is pretty expensive here (though not as bad as downstate), or else it would have. It's a nice little car that zips around quite nicely (although I prefer the Soul's design over the Niro's).

Rich
 
Just give me a mid/full-size sedan with the EV drivetrain for under $40K and I'll be on-board. Essentially a Dodge Charger/Ford Fusion/Impala/etc. with a 250+ mile range, preferably with a sub-6s 0-60/sub-13s 1/4 mile. I don't need 14-inch flat screens and a sterile/minimalist interior. Just take the same body/interior and put it on a EV skateboard. It really isn't that difficult to execute and get a bunch more people on-board.
 
Every once in a while, I read a thread that I participatd in 10 years ago. I can't wait to re-read this thread in 10 years. If I am still here in 10 years.
 
deonb said:
There's only so much you can do to bring down drag coefficient on a weirdmobile design.
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I guess we can all agree the French are to blame?

48844781081_3800b8fec7.jpg


Imagine if they hadn’t been hobbled by the need for round headlights!
 
SoonerAviator said:
Just give me a mid/full-size sedan with the EV drivetrain for under $40K and I'll be on-board. Essentially a Dodge Charger/Ford Fusion/Impala/etc. with a 250+ mile range, preferably with a sub-6s 0-60/sub-13s 1/4 mile.
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https://www.tesla.com/model3/design#battery

Mid-size sedan, under $40K, 0-60 in under 6 s... OK, so the range is 240 instead of 250. But it also has access to the Supercharger network, and you can get 10 miles of range into a Model 3 from a Supercharger in a minute or less if you really need to.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
https://www.tesla.com/model3/design#battery

Mid-size sedan, under $40K, 0-60 in under 6 s... OK, so the range is 240 instead of 250. But it also has access to the Supercharger network, and you can get 10 miles of range into a Model 3 from a Supercharger in a minute or less if you really need to.
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You skipped the part of my quote for not wanting obnoxious touch screen sizes and interior designs. The Model 3 is on the small size interior wise as well. I prefer full size sedans, personally. Charger/Pontiac G8/Taurus. The Model S is a better comparison size-wise, but not at $70K+.
 
SoonerAviator said:
You skipped the part of my quote for not wanting obnoxious touch screen sizes and interior designs.
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I didn't skip it. You said "I don't need" not "I don't want".

The Model 3 is on the small size interior wise as well. I prefer full size sedans, personally.
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You said mid/full. The 3 is a mid.

You can lead a horse to water... :dunno:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I didn't skip it. You said "I don't need" not "I don't want".



You said mid/full. The 3 is a mid.

You can lead a horse to water... :dunno:
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Sorry, don't need was basically "do not want". I've already mentioned that it looks terrible and out of place. Unfortunately, the mid-size segment includes everything from a Honda Civic to a Buick Regal. Quite a difference in interior volumes and backseat legroom inside the same segment. The Model 3 rear seat is closer to a Honda Civic, but I'd want at least Honda Accord legroom. Essentially, I'd need the Model S to be $40K or less (and minus the also-ugly screen). I really just want someone to make an existing car with the Tesla drive-train instead of purposefully trying to make it look "futuristic". Instead of buying a Dodge Charger SRT for $40K, you buy a Dodge Charger EV which has roughly the same performance (maybe better with lower CoG) and no one knows the difference aside from the lack of 392cu in V8 rumbling.
 
SoonerAviator said:
I've already mentioned that it [center screen] looks terrible and out of place.
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The radically different interior design was one of the reasons that I went to test drive a Model 3. I watched a lot of YouTube videos on the car but that doesn't tell you what it will be like to live with it. I thought it would be a negative but I found it very easy to adjust to. Much better than I had expected.

I'd really like a HUD, though. I have one on my Mazda3 and love it. It's funny, though, as I thought the HUD was just a gimmick but it came with the trim level I wanted so I got it. I would have skipped it if I could have. Now I want a HUD on all of my cars.
 
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