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Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by flyingcheesehead, Nov 9, 2018.
Ev's are sold as soon as people ride in them. we let our friends drive our i3 at brunch and now they're thinking hard about adding one to the fleet
Having been a "fanboy" of a few things in my life, I think I can tell you why: We've found a product we REALLY like, that has made our lives significantly better, and we want our friends and family to be as happy as we are. That's it. I own plenty of products that don't make me feel that way at all and/or are just average-to-good. But once in a great while, you come across something with a truly next-level user experience, and it makes you happy and works really well for you, and you want to share the joy. That's it.
If it truly doesn't meet your needs, I won't try to sell you on it - But if you're basing your opinion on the large amount of FUD and misinformation there is on the subject, I will do my best to at least tell you what it's really like. If it still doesn't, then cool. You do you, and I'll continue to enjoy it.
You live 150 miles from town?
In that case, then yeah, it's not for you unless there's a Supercharger at your grocery store. Maybe try a plug-in hybrid, or just skip the EV thing entirely. There are still plenty of edge cases that can't be addressed or aren't optimum, but those cases are getting fewer and fewer as time goes on.
FWIW, the most expensive recharges I've seen around here would run about $20 (for a Greenlots CHAdeMO/CCS charger). I stopped at a Supercharger with the Model 3 while I had it and added 80 miles of range for $1.76 in under 10 minutes.
Which is far outweighed, for me, by the fact that I would never have to stand outside in the cold-@$$ Wisconsin winter pumping gas again, and I would save a lot of time by never having to visit a gas station.
Nobody's pretending there aren't any tradeoffs, merely that those tradeoffs are WELL worth it for most people.
Ah, that good old OWT. First of all, Tesla paid back all their government loans, with interest, years ago. Also, if we go back to the last time the economy really tanked in 2008, the only two car manufacturers that DIDN'T go bankrupt were Ford, and Tesla.
Second, Tesla has already hit the 200,000-car limit for the phase-out of the EV tax credit, but it looks like they have hit critical mass to continue with the big demand, by getting their cars out and having people experience them and talk about them like we're doing here, prompting more orders.
Now, it's going to be Tesla's competition that has an advantage, since only non-Tesla electric vehicles will get the tax credit. (GM will likely hit the limit before too long too.) IMO, that was a foolish way of crafting that policy - It should apply equally to all manufacturers on the same time frame, with the phase-out being triggered by the first one to hit 200K, because now it will be rewarding the manufacturers that dragged their feet and didn't do the R&D spending that the credit was trying to encourage. There are two different Republican-sponsored bills right now, one to extend the credit for a couple more years for everyone and then get rid of it, and another to just get rid of it entirely right now, and I hope one of them passes.
That was another pleasant surprise, actually. I agree with you that the placement of the screen looks utterly stupid when you see it in pictures - But none of those pictures were taken from the perspective of the driver's eyes. In reality, it doesn't look dumb at all, and is placed pretty much perfectly for both viewability and usability.
BTW, a couple of last-day impressions (I returned it yesterday):
* We got some snow, and it was really sure-footed in the snow. I could floor it with the rear wheels on the snow and it would give me as much acceleration as it could given the traction, and when it caught dry pavement, it would kick in more. No fishtailing, in fact no loss of traction whatsoever. It behaved, again, better than any car I've ever driven in snow. Regen was also limited when traction was poor to prevent the drive wheels from breaking loose. It was FAR better than the i3 I just replaced, and better than any of my gassers have been.
* The navigation is a bit less talk-y than most. If you're already in the correct lane at an interstate interchange, it won't interrupt you to tell you. It won't give you a million warnings at every turn - I think it was maybe even paying attention to speed to see if you already were doing what it wanted. I didn't really appreciate that until I turned Waze on on my phone on the way back too, and Waze was much more verbose than it really needed to be.
* I forgot one other thing, that I thought was cool as a pilot: It has a stick shaker!! Rather than the annoying beeping lane departure warnings of other cars, it shakes the steering wheel to simulate a rumble strip, which is far less annoying and more attention-getting. Very cool!
Might as well be 150 miles out. At least we do have a Walmart here, but if wally doesn't have what you want, your not going to get it easily.
I think that Sam's and Costco stores are putting in charging stations for customers, not 100% sure about that.
You are right, electric cars are not meeting my needs....for now. That doesn't mean I am against them. I am watching and some day they probably will meet my needs, and hopefully they won't cost more than my house by then...
I suspect they will release some radically curved short-looking thing that looks more like BMW slept with an El Camino and ended up with a Tesla "pickup". That might sell fine to Honda Ridgeline owners. However, they're going to have a hard time capturing the mass truck market with something like that. 1970s, 1980s, to late 1990s all had pretty square shaped trucks. Ford tried to shake it up with a "modern curvy" F150 design in 1997, Chevy followed suit introducing the "silverado" with a more curved look in 1999. Truck buyers didn't respond well and wanted something with sharper lines. In 2004, Ford sharpened the lines up, Chevy in 2007. Both of them have continued to sharpen the lines with each new generation (GM about a generation behind Ford's lines each time, just look at google images).
It's very difficult to take pickup marketshare from the American big three. Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc have all learned that lesson. We'll see what they do - I hope they come out with something that looks like and performs work like an American truck. That..I might be interested in. If it's some Cali yuppie bladerunner version of a pickup that can't tow 10,000 lbs. No thanks.
Ford has said that there will be a hybrid F150 in 2020 (chevy volt style). Four wheel drive with electric motors. A battery for some range. Plus a gas engine generator to give you whatever range you need. The cool thing is - they've said the truck will have enough electrical capacity to power your camper (or big job site tools). The above sounds like a winner to me. I'd love to not have to drag my heavy generator in/out of my truck bed each time we go camping. Being able to power the AC in my 34 ft travel trailer off my F150...tempting.
Costco has had them at certain stores, and maybe even removed some from what I've heard. It's a smart thing for stores to have them, tho.
I doubt it - They know how important it is to get the styling right.
You're forgetting the 1994+ Dodge Ram, which was highly successful because it finally looked like a TRUCK, and not a shoebox.
I think Honda/Toyota are amazingly successful even though they may not sell as much simply because your average truck buyer is very pro-American and won't even consider anything but the Big Three. But Tesla is the most American car company there is - It's not only an American company, but all production is in the US as well. (Obviously, there are parts that come from third parties elsewhere, but Tesla's production facilities are in California and Nevada.)
Yup. And I think 90%+ of pickup truck buyers would say exactly that, and Tesla knows it. It needs to be a kick-ass truck, preferably with some really cool features that nobody else has.
Yup. And I'm sure Ford is working diligently to ensure their continued lead in the pickup truck market. I expect that when this is all shaken out in 10 years, Ford and Tesla will likely be the leaders, with GM lagging, Dodge pretty much out of the game except for maybe the Cummins diesels, and Honda/Toyota out as well. Fiat Chrysler is pretty much sticking their head in the sand WRT EVs at this point, and Honda and Toyota have been trying to manipulate CARB with the whole FCV thing and have given up their former lead on the market. GM has some potential to take what they've learned from the Volt and do something good, but I expect GM to be GM and not make as well-engineered a product as Ford.
One thing's for sure: It's gonna be interesting to watch.
I would be fine with you right up to the point that you decide to judge how I made a decision or formulate an opinion. That’s exactly what I’m talking about in my post. It is not up to you to judge the validity of my opinion.
In fact my friends don’t offer opinions about consumer products without being solicited. Thats how I prefer it in real life. Here on al gores Internet I expect people to offer their opinion without solicitation. I don’t like it to cross the line where someone is telling me “ but wait if only you try it. No really it is great if only you take time to really understand”.
Now that’s arrogant, judgmental and not welcome.
I’d probably consider a Tesla pickup if it didn’t cost six figures. I’d be shocked if a base model came in less than $70k. Sorry, but a pickup is meant to be used hard. I don’t understand the concept of luxury pickup trucks.
Then explain pickup sales. Vast majority are luxury that I see.
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I don’t see any claims about what others want, just myself.
Never mind. Talking past each other.
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Not sure if you left out a "not" in that sentence. I think 66 years from First Flight to first moon landing is an incredibly short time.
I suspect you mostly get that reaction after you tell them how stupid their decision was and that you don't like or want one. People get defensive when you criticize their choices.
Leslie and I have two cars. I'd guess most couples do these days. We drive the BMW around town most of the time because it is fun to drive and easy to park. But when we go on trips, we usually take the GMC Canyon because it more comfortable for long trips, you sit higher and can see traffic better (and they can see us better). And it has more room to carry stuff.
We may trade the BMW in for a Tesla soon because the Tesla is MORE fun to drive (We have both driven our friends older Tesla). About 360 days a year, we would have no problem running around town all day and then charging it at night. MAYBE two or three times a year we would need to find a charging station and have a cup of coffee. I see absolutely no down side to that. We would still take the pickup on out of town trips when we don't take the Bo. But even most of those trips could be accomplished without a charging station in a Tesla.
There are people that don't change their own oil? That's a bit silly.
One thing that people miss (using silly terms such as "conventional car") is that the Tesla vehicles are great automobiles. No qualifications needed. If I drove more than 3K miles a year I'd own one.
Out of curiosity how has the reliability been on the Model S/X/3?
There is a guy at work who bought a Model S used. Seems to love it, but he did mention he had something go out on it (I can't remember what the heck it was). It was supposed to be under warranty, but Tesla wouldn't uphold it - he spent like ~$2400 replacing whatever the part was. I don't think it had many miles on it.
The 100D model has a 335 mile range but starts at $94k. P100D at $135k. Wowzers - had no idea they got that pricey
Just ordered the Model X
Easy payment of $1553/mo for 72 months! Man it feels good to be part of the 1%. I'm gonna drive to Florida to give Salty a ride.
I agree, pickups are work vehicles. I would venture to say that more than 50% of people that buy trucks usually use them for daily drivers. The hardest work they ever see is carrying groceries home or taking the kids to soccer practice
My dealer buddy tells me when the 2018 F-150 goes on year end closeout sales that they will come with 2 new dresses, 4 pairs of matching shoes and 2 matching purses for the buyer....
You suspect wrong. I don’t think anyone is stupid for owning the things they want and are willing to buy.
Nobody is saying anyone's opinion is invalid - It's more about the information that goes into forming an opinion. There is a LOT of "FUD" (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) that has been spread by people with a lot of money invested in the oil industry. If that's what your opinion is based on, I'd like to have a conversation with you about it.
If you say "I need a car that can get to my other place up in Sidnaw" or something like that, I'll tell you to wait. There's still a decent percentage of people for whom an EV just won't work, and I won't try to sell them on it. That would be dumb.
If you say "EVs suck" without ever trying one, then that crosses a completely different line.
There are a number of well-known chronic issues with the early ones. Door handles failing to present is probably the biggest one. Tesla has replaced an awful lot of them under warranty, but there are YouTube videos for DIY fixes on those, and people who are selling "better" parts that they fabricate too.
Here's a thread at Tesla Motors Club (a forum much like this one) asking/answering the same question: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/how-reliable-is-your-model-s.117032/
Well, when you want to go 0-60 in 2.25 seconds, it gets expensive, no matter who you buy from. A Model S P100D is a helluva lot cheaper than a Ferrari, and will beat it off the line and stay ahead up into the 80-100 mph range. Lots of videos on YouTube of Teslas racing various supercars, airplanes, etc...
Dunno, but on the way to the hotel in Dubai today, saw a Tesla S on the back of a flatbed heading to the dealership. Apparently sending a tech out to fix it wasn’t viable (since it was designed to rarely need a lift).
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Electric motors have a lot of useful characteristics for cars, one of which is they generate maximum torque at a standstill. That makes the starts incredibly fast. The ability to put one at each wheel and computer controls make a lot of other things possible. They are very elegant solution for cars (and trucks). But the energy transfer rates suck. It's really hard to compete with dumping a bunch of chemicals into a tank for energy transfer rates. Hybrids fix that problem at the expense of complexity. They're getting better, but still have a long way to go...
I get that sentiment, but “luxury” trucks exist because people sometimes need a vehicle once a month with a truck bed to toss large or dirty materials into. They may need to tow a boat a half dozen times each summer. In order to have that utility, they buy a truck. Many people can’t afford to buy two vehicles to serve the DD function and the truck function. So, the luxury truck fills that void (which sales figures have shown to be a huge void). I have a luxury truck, a loaded ‘08 F-150 with every option Ford had at the time. When I bought it, I didn’t have the income for 2 new vehicles, but I needed to tow/haul stuff a few times a month. Why not ride in comfort with upgraded factory stereo, heated leather seats, moonroof, remote start, etc?
My truck isn’t hauling/towing daily, and I currently own multiple vehicles to choose from today now that my income is much greater than it was a decade ago. Truck looks like a pavement princess from the outside, but the dents/scratches in the bed and hitch show it gets used like a truck plenty.
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Very true. I need a light duty truck two or three times a month. I'm not going to buy a truck and a daily driver so I bought a pickup that does everything I need from a truck, and it gives me a nice looking, comfortable ride too. I enjoy getting compliments when I pick people up. Besides, if I bought an extra vehicle, I would need to buy a house with a bigger garage.
I completely agree. I've always had trucks because I grew up racing motocross and needed something to haul the bike and gear around. Of course, it came in handy if for various other tasks and towing trailers when needed. This sentiment that all trucks have to be a "work" truck is ridiculous.
There was a good period of time when I didn't change my oil, at least on some cars. It was essentially just as cheap to have someone else do it and in PA where we had state inspections, it was nice to be friends with the inspection guys who would turn a blind eye to some minor issues the car had.
I took the Ram to the dealer for the first oil change because I did want to show dealer oil changes to make sure that if there was an engine issue that they couldn't try to say my warranty was voided. Legally they can't do it but I've had it happen before. But the price was about 4x what I could do it for myself, so now I'm doing my own oil changes given that it's a Cummins and shouldn't break.
I stopped changing my own oil in college. I have never looked back; I just have no interest in it. Is it expensive, sure, but I would rather spend the money then the time.
Time wise I find it's pretty much a wash if anything less time to do myself. On my Mercedes with 0W-40 Mobil 1 it's cheaper for me to do myself, on the Ram it's much cheaper to do myself.
I want a luxury truck when I'm pulling my luxury Airstream. (I have neither, but if I did ... I do like all of the bells and whistles. My Ford Flex has every single option.)
Swing by Charlotte on the way. I know a bar that has a Tesla charger next to it.
Where are you in Charlotte? I just moved the area.
I'm actually in the Belmont - Mount Holly area.
We should round up @eman1200 and do something...
That'd be cool. Any suggestions?
Are you planning on going to GMU next month for lunch?
Is there a planning thread. It’s less than an hour from my house. Mainly depends on my work schedule. My days off are normally a week day
With a $1500 a month payment, you’ll be buying the drinks.
I live on an airport with a hangar on my property and my mortgage isn’t much more than that.
But I found a charger for him. That should be worth something!