Tell your congressman to make registration data private

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Ace66, Jul 26, 2019.

  1. dans2992

    dans2992 En-Route

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    So, looking at that NPRM, does it also allow these aircraft to turn off their Mode S/Mode C transponders as well, or just ADS-B? It wasn’t clear to me.
     
  2. cowman

    cowman En-Route PoA Supporter

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    My credit card company was aware of every car I owned and used that to verify my identity once. I don’t finance, paid in cash. How else would they know?

    Seriously there are websites where for a small fee you can get more than you’d imagine is available on anyone.
     
  3. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Real Time? Can those websites tell you where I am at any given time? There's a difference between finding out someone lived somewhere 2 years ago vs they are at Applebees getting half off appetizers at this very minute.

    Apples vs elephants.
     
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  4. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Old info?
    https://www.fly.faa.gov/ASDI/asdi.html

    It gives a different email address than plasticcigar's post

    Question: Who may request to block an aircraft from the ASDI data feeds?
    Answer—
    Any aircraft owner or operator may request blocking of their aircraft's identification number from any display of the FAA's ASDI data that is made available to the public with the exception of data made available to a Government agency, for the noncommercial flights of that owner or operator.
     
  5. Katamarino

    Katamarino Cleared for Takeoff

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    Yes, old info that has been posted several times already on here, along with about 10 posts all explaining why it is irrelevant to ADS-B.
     
  6. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Crickets chirping...
     
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  7. Clip4

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    Equally the FAA has no legitimate reason to keep this data secret. An N# and it’s location is not personal data. No one can determine, or cares, if you are on business trips, scouting locations, visiting a potential recruit from a competitor, or an illegitimate child by the location of an N#.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2019
  8. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    What makes you think so? The Ninth Amendment says that a right not being listed in the Constitution does not prove that it doesn't exist, and the Supreme Court has recognized that there is a right to privacy for some purposes.

    https://constitution.findlaw.com/amendment9.html

    https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/do-you-have-a-right-to-privacy-31474

    That's the point. License plate data is not freely available to the public, and the reasons why that should be so apply just as much to aircraft owners as they do to motor vehicle owners.
     
  9. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The same reasoning could be used to say that the DMV has no legitimate reason to keep the names and addresses of license plate holders secret. Would you favor putting that information on publicly accessible Web sites?
     
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  10. C-1 PILOT

    C-1 PILOT Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Thanks for the explanation, much appreciated.
     
  11. Clip4

    Clip4 En-Route

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    Let’s flip the coin, if you saw someone trying to steal your property and you had a tag#, do you believe you should be able to look up that tag to know who it was? It is illegal for the police to give you that info from LEADS records.

    Personally I believe all registration, license and tax information should be public.
     
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  12. Landing Fees

    Landing Fees Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I would. If people didn’t think they had the anonymity perhaps they wouldn’t drive like such a-holes.
     
  13. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I do not.

    I believe that it should be made legal to subpoena that information, if it is not already.

    Well, at least pilots would no longer be discriminated against in your proposal, but I think the public outcry would render it "dead on arrival."

    My position is that there is no justification for having one privacy standard for motorists, and another for pilots. It sounds like we at least agree on that.
     
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  14. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    That's an appealing argument, but I have a feeling that the negative consequences would outweigh the positive.
     
  15. dans2992

    dans2992 En-Route

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    There was a similar outcry about AIS on ships. (Similar technology). People with yachts were upset about being trackable.

    Never did result in any changes. I believe some senators told them “there is no expectation of privacy in territorial waters” or something to that effect.
     
  16. Ace66

    Ace66 Filing Flight Plan

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    Then record them with a dash cam and take it to the police who should be the ones with the only access to people’s data. (This actually does happen).

    Same thing with flying. If someone buzzes a town then people should video him with his N number and take it to the FAA who then looks it up. The victims should not have access to that data less they become vigilantes.
     
  17. Sundancer

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    I'm sorry, but that's just nonsense - the justification for obscuring real-time location data, other than for ATC necessity, is self-evident, as plenty of posters here articulated; there is no public benefit to expose my aircraft's location in real-time, and plenty of good reasons not to do so.

    You, acting as a private citizen, have no compelling need, and no real public need is evident, either. And acting as an other than gov't entity, you definitelty do not, whereas the aircraft operator certainly may have reason to require it not be broadcast indiscriminately.

    My N number is not, as you say, personal data - but where the aircraft (and I) are at any given moment in time is.
     
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  18. PlasticCigar

    PlasticCigar Pre-Flight

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    According to this article, ADS-B blocking is “an obscure law” than enables pedophiles.

    https://www.wired.com/story/global-girl-jeffrey-epstein-and-the-lolita-express/

    Interesting as has been pointed out how we have the expectation of privacy when driving but not flying. If you had to send your car’s GPS location in real-time to a public website there would be such an uproar but with planes it’s totally fine.

    Whatever. I have a pretty boring life. If someone wants to track me they’re just going to waste a bunch of their time. I still don’t think it’s right, though.
     
  19. iflyatiger

    iflyatiger Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Consider..

    Right or wrong think about all of the security measures enacted to keep airports and small aircraft safe against the bad guy using aviation as a terrorist tool.. Fences, badges, rules, etc.. All of the money spent!

    But then let's just go ahead and give out the addresses of aircraft owners and pilots and let's make tracking them as easy as using a website.. Somehow doesn't sound so smart or in line with the often touted "aviation including GA is an attractive target for the bad guys"
     
  20. dans2992

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    So... if tons of people installed license plate readers in their front yards, and a centralized non-govt database was kept of what plate was seen where and when.... would that be legal?

    I’m thinking it would be.
     
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  21. KaiGywer

    KaiGywer Pre-takeoff checklist

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    No, because if you have a tag you can give it to the police who will then investigate, not go on some vigilante mission.
    It is. Doesn't even take a subpoena in some states, just a reasonable reason for request to the DOT.
     
  22. Axtel4

    Axtel4 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I believe, in formation flight, the lead aircraft is the only aircraft with an active transponder. All the other aircraft in the formation have their transponders OFF or in STBY.

    As I understand the operation of Mode S / ADS-B, the altitude portion of the reply can be suppressed at the request of ATC by switching the transponder from the ALT to ON Mode like is provided for with Mode A/C transponders. With the altitude suppressed, the Mode S transponders set the altitude field to "0" (zero), however all other Mode S / ADS-B data is still transmitted via reply, squitter, or broadcast. This is analogous to the Mode C transponders transmitting just the framing pulses for a Mode C reply, while still replying with the Mode A 4096 code with the Mode A/C transponder is placed in the ON Mode. The broadcast ADS-B data includes the aircraft type, the tail number, the Mode S 24 bit code, and the position data among other Mode S / ADS-B data. Since the position data (lat/lon) is still broadcast with the transponder in the ON mode, and the only way to disable the ADS-B data with a current ADS-B transponder is to turn it off or place it in standby it appears the NPRM allows for the operator of a "public service" aircraft to turn off, or place the transponder in standby to suppress the transmission of the position data. As stated in the NPRM, "Once the FAA receives a request to terminate broadcasting, the FAA will issue authorizations to turn ADS-B Out off following an assessment that the operations can be accommodated without any negative impact on the safety and efficiency of the NAS."
     
  23. dans2992

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    I wonder if they’d authorize transponders to be turned off within Mode C veils?
     
  24. iflyatiger

    iflyatiger Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Good thread OP.
    It looks like what a lot of us believe should happen is not so far fetched after all..

    Notice the last paragraph...

    From today's aero-news.net

    Developing An Opt-Out Solution Based On Providing Operators An Alternate 24-Bit Icao (Mode S Transponder) Code
    Given the long-standing recognition by government and industry of the need to maintain in-flight security, NBAA is working with the FAA and other stakeholders to identify the most effective means to ensure that operators continue to have the ability to opt out from having their flights tracked in real time, following a conversation many aircraft will make to new ADS-B technology, starting Jan. 1, 2020.

    [​IMG]


    NBAA – through its involvement with the FAA’s Equip 2020 working group, as well as engagement with the FAA’s Surveillance and Broadcast Services, System Wide Information Management and System Operations Services groups – is working with the agency and other general aviation associations to develop an opt-out solution, based on providing operators an alternate 24-bit ICAO (Mode S transponder) code.

    Under this solution, operators would retain their permanent transponder code tied to an aircraft’s N-number, but would also be able to use a secondary, non-published code, assigned and managed by the FAA, which would not link to the specific aircraft tail number. It is expected that operators could request a new secondary code at least once every 30 days.

    The addition of this new, secondary ICAO code program to the existing FAA Blocked Aircraft Registration Request (BARR) program would address not only what information managed by FAA is shared under BARR, but also the data transmitted by the aircraft itself to determine its identification throughout the NAS. While private ADS-B receivers could still detect an aircraft flying overhead, they would not see any information allowing them to match that aircraft to the owner listed in the FAA Registry.

    “Everyone agrees that a person shouldn’t need to give up his or her security when boarding an airplane,” said NBAA president and CEO Ed Bolen. “We remain committed to working with the FAA and others to ensure that operators are given an ability to opt out from having their flights tracked in real time, basically by anyone, anywhere in the world, who happens to have the appropriate equipment for doing so, and whose intentions may be unknown.”

    Since 2000, Congress has repeatedly passed legislation mandating that the FAA provide a means for opting out from real-time flight tracking, regardless of the technology involved. While such a provision has long been in effect in the U.S., it does not necessarily apply to international flights.
     
  25. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It's too bad that so-called "spell-checkers" have put an end to proofreading, because they can't tell that "conversation" is not how you spell "conversion." :rolleyes1:
     
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  26. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I dunno, a lot of pilots probably have conversations with their aircraft. Usually right before they put it down in a field due to fuel exhaustion.

    "Come on baby, just a little bit farther. I know you can do it, just a little farther..."
     
  27. Sundancer

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    I don't think we were debating the legality, though someone with deep pockets might find a way to prevail. . . you might not want to be the citizen who posted a plate number that led to a loss, injury, or death. Civil court is very unpredictable.

    You don't have a bad analogy, though, but not quite the same, I think. The forced, open, indiscriminate broadcasting of aircraft locations casts a wider net - license plate readers in front yards wouldn't be a government mandate, one with no practical way to opt out. And driving from NY to ATL, I don't pass by many front yards.
     
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  28. Weekend Warrior

    Weekend Warrior Pre-Flight

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    Not taking a side in this debate, but just some information: yesterday, I saw someone on my security camera pull up to my house, take a picture, then speed away. My camera is HD so I got their car's license plate. A few bucks later on the internet, I got their complete info. Just saying.

    Oh, and turns out the photographer was an appraiser, as my house just sold. I figured it was an appraiser, but I also thought it was weird as it was 6pm on a Sunday, so that's why I checked.
     
  29. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Did that internet information show you where they were at that exact moment based on their license plate?
     
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  30. Weekend Warrior

    Weekend Warrior Pre-Flight

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    Yes. (Silly question deserves a silly answer). Actually no, but:

    ADSB shows your plane's location when you are flying. I fly about 100 hours a year. So for 100 hours you can tell where my plane is at (but still not me, at least not for sure). That leaves the remaining 8660 hours for you to guess.
     
  31. Weekend Warrior

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    And I agree with you that it shouldn't be made public, but disagree that it is a big deal (and also obviously disagree that license plate information isnot available to the public).
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  32. DaleB

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    My only comment would be,

    1.) It's not a big deal to you. It is to some people.
    2.) License plate information is available IF you want to pay for it, but it still
    a.) isn't available instantly and anonymously to everyone worldwide with nothing more than a simple web page, and
    b.) doesn't include tracking tell you where the person who owns the car has been or currently is.​
     
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  33. Weekend Warrior

    Weekend Warrior Pre-Flight

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    Neither does ADSB. It doesn't track people. It tracks aircraft.
     
  34. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    If owned by an individual, it does essentially track a person. Just like an RFID chip in an ID card does.
     
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  35. Weekend Warrior

    Weekend Warrior Pre-Flight

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    Also, my eyes can track cars, people, planes, etc. Of course, my eyes are limited (more so every day) but they CAN do that.
     
  36. Weekend Warrior

    Weekend Warrior Pre-Flight

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    Lots of planes are owned by individuals that don't fly them. Ask my mechanic, who flys WAY more than me, but doesn't own a plane, and doesn't rent either.
     
  37. DaleB

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    Sigh. Yes, if you work hard enough, you can come up with a limitless supply of reasons why YOU don't care about this. Surprisingly enough, not everyone feels the same way.
     
  38. Weekend Warrior

    Weekend Warrior Pre-Flight

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    And obviously you can come up with reasons why you do.
    I'm new here, but I think that's what we do, on this POA, isn't it?
     
  39. DaleB

    DaleB En-Route

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    You are correct, sir. Inane arguments over meaningless crap is our collective specialty. And, with that in mind...

    I never said I cared, did I?

    (Actually, I probably did say so, and I do care, but given the current tilt of the discussion I thought a little pointless argument might blend in well.)
     
  40. Weekend Warrior

    Weekend Warrior Pre-Flight

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    Touché