Teardrop? Parallel? Direct? without GPS

[comanchepilot]

I have not seen the "who cares and what does it matter" response . . .

I don't care - I don't do mental gymnastics when I"m flying if I can avoid it.

Whats the holding point? Ok - fine identified. Am I flying to it now? OK.

Do what you need to do in order to get into the hold or do the course reversal - wanna do a Cuban 8? Thats ok too. If I'm heading toward a point that needs a reversal in order to enter - cross the point and make it work. I don't spend a moment of time trying to figure out what the entry is called - or if I'm 'doing it right.' Sorry - but while I knew all this stuff when I took the instrument exam and ride - and take another look at it to pass my annual IPC - I just don't care.

 

[weilke]

I have not seen the "who cares and what does it matter" response . . . .

It's one of those things seemingly complicated in the books and dirt simple in the air. Just like procedure turns.

 

[Jaybird180]

I have not seen the "who cares and what does it matter" response . . .

I don't care - I don't do mental gymnastics when I"m flying if I can avoid it.

Whats the holding point? Ok - fine identified. Am I flying to it now? OK.

Do what you need to do in order to get into the hold or do the course reversal - wanna do a Cuban 8? Thats ok too. If I'm heading toward a point that needs a reversal in order to enter - cross the point and make it work. I don't spend a moment of time trying to figure out what the entry is called - or if I'm 'doing it right.' Sorry - but while I knew all this stuff when I took the instrument exam and ride - and take another look at it to pass my annual IPC - I just don't care.

Could an IR candidate pass a checkride with a Cuban8 ?

 

[LDJones]

Could an IR candidate pass a checkride with a Cuban8 ?

Maybe if it really impressed the DPE.

 

[Jaybird180]

Sounds like you're saying 'who cares' doesn't work

 

[TMetzinger]

The only reason I can see for a parallel is if you're in something fast where you may stray outside the protected space while manuevering for the direct or teardrop. Not a problem in anything going at 180 knots or less, I think.

 

[BillTIZ]

SE would still be 90 deg. Would ATC only have you hold saying SW or NE on the 220 radial, 8 DME fix? Or could they have you hold any other direction at that DME fix? I think I better go re-look in the books too.

your right, hold SW or NE.

 

[RotorAndWing]

The only reason I can see for a parallel is if you're in something fast where you may stray outside the protected space while manuevering for the direct or teardrop. Not a problem in anything going at 180 knots or less, I think.

When I did my sim eval on the A320 the Instructor asked me what my hold entry would be at the VOR on the 222 Radial. I punched it in the FMS, it drew the course on the ND with the hold and entry and I said" uh, looks parallel to me"....

To this day I'm not sure if he was serious or not...

 

[comanchepilot]

It's one of those things seemingly complicated in the books and dirt simple in the air. Just like procedure turns.

Yep - sorry guys - I really did not look close enough to see that this was for a checkride - ok - obsess away - I'm sure the right answer has already been given but I have no idea which one it was . . .

 

[comanchepilot]

Could an IR candidate pass a checkride with a Cuban8 ?

would be fun to try with someone who has a sense of humor . . . especially if you can bring it out right on the correct altitude and heading . . .

 

[weilke]

Yep - sorry guys - I really did not look close enough to see that this was for a checkride - ok - obsess away - I'm sure the right answer has already been given but I have no idea which one it was . . .

On my IR checkride, I was planning my elaborate hold entry when the DPE just said: I dont care how you get into the hold just dont scare me.

 

[Jaybird180]

There are 360 degrees in a circle; there are eight cardinal directions (N, NE, E, SE, S, SW, W, NW). Each is a 45 degree slice of the pie, centered on 360, 045, 90, 135, 180, 225, 270, and 315. The holding instructions format begins with a cardinal direction from the fix. Northwest (315) is the center of that piece of pie, and the word "northwest" incorporates all headings/radials, courses between 292.5 and 337.5.

Bob

Okay, I drew it out and have my diagram in front of me

Let's go to the format used by controllers as found in AIM 5-3-7:

1. Direction of holding from the fix: "Hold northwest..." (this means that when you cross the fix you are going to turn roughly to the northwest....somewhere between 292 and 337.

2. Holding fix: "...of the Podunk VOR..." (self explanatory)

3. Radial, course, airway, bearing, or route: "...on the 315 radial..." (again, self explanatory)

4. Leg length (when it is a DME hold)

5. Direction of turn: Only when non-standard, i.e., left turns

6. Time to expect further clearance.

Simply turning in the cardinal direction stated and timing for a minute or so solves most of your problems. What to do at the end of the wait? If it is a standard hold, turn left and return to the fix; if it is left turns, turn right and return to the fix.

Enjoy.

Bob Gardner

Q1: Is the 45deg sector direction (#1 above) always fixated around the 22.5 degrees each side of the holding radial (#3)?

Q2: Is #1 obligatory verbiage in the Controller holding instruction?

Q3: While I understand the concept of hold on xxx radial, yyy DME from zzz fix, standard (or non) turns, leg length, EFT, etc it's the #1 part that I'm not clear about. Is it the orientation of the racetrack pattern once established in the hold?

 

[EdFred]

Okay, I drew it out and have my diagram in front of me



Q1: Is the 45deg sector direction (#1 above) always fixated around the 22.5 degrees each side of the holding radial (#3)?

Q2: Is #1 obligatory verbiage in the Controller holding instruction?

Q3: While I understand the concept of hold on xxx radial, yyy DME from zzz fix, standard (or non) turns, leg length, EFT, etc it's the #1 part that I'm not clear about. Is it the orientation of the racetrack pattern once established in the hold?

You're over thinking it too much. When you are inbound on the hold (towards the fix) you're flying northwest. The inbound leg goes northwest, the outbound southeast. See that picture I made? turn it 45 degrees clockwise. That's what Bob is saying.


OOOOOPS. I got it backwards. You maintain your position northwest of the fix. The inbound leg actually goes southeast. I'll make sketches.

 

[Jaybird180]

You're over thinking it too much. When you are inbound on the hold (towards the fix) you're flying northwest. The inbound leg goes northwest, the outbound southeast. See that picture I made? turn it 45 degrees clockwise. That's what Bob is saying.

So if the inbound leg is the radial from the VOR, why confuse it with NW, SE, NE, SW? What's the history (reason) behind that?

 

[EdFred]

So if the inbound leg is the radial from the VOR, why confuse it with NW, SE, NE, SW? What's the history (reason) behind that?

Because you could be told to hold SE on the 315 radial, in which case your inbound leg would be southeast, and your outbound leg would parallel the 315 radial, and you would be northwest of the VOR due to being on the 315 radial.

Make sense?

 

[azure]

See the picture, I take no extra turns. Maybe longer ones, but not extra.

I see the picture, it just confirms what I thought you meant. I still don't see how you enter the hold with a teardrop from 360. Do you turn left first (extra turn) or teardrop around to the right after crossing the fix southbound? Or do you start the teardrop before you reach the fix?

It doesn't really matter, whatever works for you is good, I'm just curious.

 

[EdFred]

I see the picture, it just confirms what I thought you meant. I still don't see how you enter the hold with a teardrop from 360. Do you turn left first (extra turn) or teardrop around to the right after crossing the fix southbound? Or do you start the teardrop before you reach the fix?

It doesn't really matter, whatever works for you is good, I'm just curious.

Same way I would enter it coming from 270 or 315. Left turn to initiate the teardrop leg, then all right turns from there. However, from directly north, it will probably depend whether the wind has a more easterly or westerly component as to whether I would enter direct or teardrop. I don't see how it's an extra turn. You have to make a turn to get on the tear drop "outbound" leg unless you are entering from the 240 radial from the fix. In that case you don't make any turn. What do you mean by "extra turn" ? I make one turn to get on any particular leg. Maybe it's left, maybe it's right.

 

[Jaybird180]

Because you could be told to hold SE on the 315 radial, in which case your inbound leg would be southeast, and your outbound leg would parallel the 315 radial, and you would be northwest of the VOR due to being on the 315 radial.

Make sense?

Makes sense if you can be told to hold SW on the 315 radial, in which case the direction instruction tells the racetrack orientation of the inbound leg to the fix. In this scenario, there could be a potential 8 holding directions at the same fix. Right?

 

[EdFred]

Makes sense if you can be told to hold SW on the 315 radial, in which case the direction instruction tells the racetrack orientation of the inbound leg to the fix. In this scenario, there could be a potential 8 holding directions at the same fix. Right?

If you were told to hold SW at 8 DME on the 315 radial, your inbound and outbound legs would be perpendicular to the radial.

See, above, I oopsed.

 

[gismo]

On my IR checkride, I was planning my elaborate hold entry when the DPE just said: I dont care how you get into the hold just dont scare me.

If the purpose of the hold is simply to waste time, with most GA airplanes you can enter simply by heading for the holding fix, turn outbound by whichever direction is shortest and turn back after a minute or so. The one case where this is sub-optimal is when the hold is actually a HILPT at or near an approach FAF because this short cut may not get you lined up on the FAC before crossing the FAF inbound. This is especially important if the fix you're using is a VOR (vs GPS or LOC fix) because you won't have any usable course guidance for a while after crossing the FAF.

 

[azure]

Same way I would enter it coming from 270 or 315. Left turn to initiate the teardrop leg, then all right turns from there. However, from directly north, it will probably depend whether the wind has a more easterly or westerly component as to whether I would enter direct or teardrop. I don't see how it's an extra turn. You have to make a turn to get on the tear drop "outbound" leg unless you are entering from the 240 radial from the fix. In that case you don't make any turn. What do you mean by "extra turn" ?

It wasn't my terminology, it was the DPE's. He didn't like parallel entries because (again, standard turns) you make a left turn before turning right, whereas with direct and teardrop, you are making one long right turn to enter the hold. I agree, sometimes you have to make the "extra turn" and I don't see any difference between turning left and then making a long right turn, or making a long left turn and then a right turn. It's all the same to me. From 360 I'd probably use a parallel entry to avoid turning more than 90 degrees to start the teardrop. But it all depends, because a strong south wind would make it easier. With a wind from the north, parallel for sure.

So why don't you like parallel entries?

 

[bobmrg]

Because you could be told to hold SE on the 315 radial, in which case your inbound leg would be southeast, and your outbound leg would parallel the 315 radial, and you would be northwest of the VOR due to being on the 315 radial.

Make sense?

NO, NO, NO!!!! The 315 radial lies northwest of the VOR, so the clearance you posit would never be given. The rest of your post is correct. The purpose of the cardinal direction is to tell the pilot which way to turn upon reaching the fix...nothing to do with inbound/outbound. The next part of the clearance states the radial, course, etc etc that defines the inbound course.

Bob

 

[bobmrg]

Makes sense if you can be told to hold SW on the 315 radial, in which case the direction instruction tells the racetrack orientation of the inbound leg to the fix. In this scenario, there could be a potential 8 holding directions at the same fix. Right?

NO, NO, NO again. You will never be told to hold SW on the 315. I think what you are working with is the location of the holding airspace itself....and that's determined by direction of turn. Going back to our old familiar 315 radial, once you have flown outbound paralleling or teardropping or whatever and turn back inbound on the 315 radial (southeast bound but still northwest of the fix), if it is right turns the holding airspace will indeed be located SW of the holding course, but so what? If it was left turns, the holding airspace would be NE of the holding course, and again, so what? For a giving holding instruction there is one and only one location for the holding airspace/racetrack. The ATC clearance does not involve the location of the airspace directly, it just gives the holding radial and the direction of turns...that is all that is needed.

Bob

 

[EdFred]

NO, NO, NO!!!! The 315 radial lies northwest of the VOR, so the clearance you posit would never be given. The rest of your post is correct. The purpose of the cardinal direction is to tell the pilot which way to turn upon reaching the fix...nothing to do with inbound/outbound. The next part of the clearance states the radial, course, etc etc that defines the inbound course.

Bob

I know, I know, I know. I caught it and I edited!!!!

Wait, you would never be told to hold SE of 8DME on the 315 Radial?

I sent a PM.

 

[bobmrg]

So if the inbound leg is the radial from the VOR, why confuse it with NW, SE, NE, SW? What's the history (reason) behind that?

There some serious misunderstandings being exposed in this thread. The cardinal direction is the first item in the clearance format (which is dictated by the Air Traffic Control Handbook, BTW) is which way to turn upon reaching the fix...no details yet, just turn roughly toward the cardinal direction. While outbound, you say to yourself "This is a standard pattern; when my time runs out I will turn left into the holding airspace and return to the fix on the 315 radial." OR "ATC said left turns, so when my time runs out I will turn right into the holding airspace and return to the fix on the 315 radial."

To answer another of your questions, yes...the arc of the circle defined by the cardinal direction extends 22.5 degrees on either side of the cardinal direction...022.5 to 67.5 is northeast, for example.

I think that other posters are hung up on the location of the racetrack, which is a byproduct of the holding instructions. They are overthinking it.

Bob

 

[bobmrg]

I know, I know, I know. I caught it and I edited!!!!

Wait, you would never be told to hold SE of 8DME on the 315 Radial?

I sent a PM.

Got the PM. DME holds are a special case. The ATCH does not give us much guidance insofar as phraseology is concerned:

4-6-4. HOLDING INSTRUCTIONS When issuing holding instructions, specify:
a. Direction of holding from the fix/waypoint.
b. Holding fix or waypoint.
NOTE-
The holding fix may be omitted if included at the beginning of the transmission as the clearance limit.
c. Radial, course, bearing, track, azimuth, airway, or route on which the aircraft is to hold.
d. Leg length in miles if DME or RNAV is to be used. Specify leg length in minutes if the pilot requests it or you consider it necessary.
e. Direction of holding pattern turns only if left turns are to be made, the pilot requests it, or you consider it necessary.
PHRASEOLOGY-
HOLD (direction) OF (fix/waypoint) ON (specified radial, course, bearing, track, airway, azimuth(s), or route.)
If leg length is specified, (number of minutes/miles) MINUTE/MILE LEG.
If direction of turn is specified, LEFT/RIGHT TURNS.

The holding aircraft must have electronic course guidance on the inbound leg.

Bob

 

[ja_user]

Unable, request vectors

 

[aterpster]

So if the inbound leg is the radial from the VOR, why confuse it with NW, SE, NE, SW? What's the history (reason) behind that?

Read the article I posted in Post 24.

It's been that way as far back as I can recall.

 

[John Collins]

It wasn't my terminology, it was the DPE's. He didn't like parallel entries because (again, standard turns) you make a left turn before turning right, whereas with direct and teardrop, you are making one long right turn to enter the hold. I agree, sometimes you have to make the "extra turn" and I don't see any difference between turning left and then making a long right turn, or making a long left turn and then a right turn. It's all the same to me. From 360 I'd probably use a parallel entry to avoid turning more than 90 degrees to start the teardrop. But it all depends, because a strong south wind would make it easier. With a wind from the north, parallel for sure.

So why don't you like parallel entries?

The initial teardrop turn direction can be left, right, or no turn at all. The parallel initial turn is always in the opposite direction of normal pattern direction to the outbound heading followed by a second turn in the same direction as the first, but sufficient to intercept the inbound course (I use 225 degrees if turn. The initial turn for a direct entry is in the same direction as the hold as is the second turn back to intercept the inbound.

The reason that the parallel entry was developed instead of just using the teardrop in its place is that for the parallel entry segment, using a teardrop puts the aircraft too far out from the holding fix before the inbound turn can be started. This is exacerbated by higher speed aircraft with a quartering tail wind.

I have found that students seem to have more of a problem with the teardrop entry than the other two, because they either get the math wrong and are mentally setup to turn a specific direction instead of flying a specific calculated heading. A very common error is they turn the wrong direction. For a holding pattern, particularly when the pilot gets the hold dumped on them with little time to visualize, they seem to do best on a direct entry, then a parallel entry and worst on a tear drop. On a standard holding pattern, a direct entry is always two right turns, for the parallel entry, it is always two left turns.

 

[CT Arrow]

Remember the freightdog rule: If your given a hold, pull the power back long before you get to the hold. Hopefully by the time you get there, ATC will cancel the hold. If not, you are already slowed down to hold as instructed.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Read the article I posted in Post 24.

It's been that way as far back as I can recall.

..and having seen pilots get confused with the numbers and hold on exactly the opposite side of the holding pattern, I can't figure out how hearing where you are supposed to be on the "northwest" side of the fix can possible be confusing.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Remember the freightdog rule: If your given a hold, pull the power back long before you get to the hold. Hopefully by the time you get there, ATC will cancel the hold. If not, you are already slowed down to hold as instructed.

Did that on my last hold. Guess I didn't slow down quite enough since I was cleared to continue in just as I turned outbound the first time.

 

[Jaybird180]

..and having seen pilots get confused with the numbers and hold on exactly the opposite side of the holding pattern, I can't figure out how hearing where you are supposed to be on the "northwest" side of the fix can possible be confusing.

If the pilot doesn't get (per the article) that direction indicates the outbound course and instead flies it inbound.


Im going to read that article a few more times myself, to make sure I understand.

Glad I came to this thread. Starting to make more sense.

 

[midlifeflyer]

If the pilot doesn't get (per the article) that direction indicates the outbound course and instead flies it inbound.

But it doesn't. The cardinal direction isn't a course; it doesn't really tell you anything about course itself other than where it generally is in relation to the holding fix. It's primarily for situational awareness. If anything, it should prevent the pilot flying the wrong course.

"Hold northwest of the XYZ VOR." All it tells me is that the holding pattern is located northwest of the VOR.

          N
          |
    X     |
          |
          |
W--------FIX--------E
          |
          |
          |
          |
          S

If I then hear a radial or course that I think is southeast of the VOR, I immediately know something is wrong, either with the instruction or the way I understood it. Try it with one of the (correctly stated) DME fix examples, especially one where the holding course is, for example, south of the VOR but north of the holding fix. Once accepted into our thinking, it should clarify rather than confuse.

 

[Jaybird180]

Attached is a short article I wrote for the ALPA magazine on this subject in 1999. Nothing has changed since then in this respect.

After re-reading the article from post #24, I am confused as to how (in the first given example of SW hold) B is not the obvious answer. Given that, I am now lost again on the value of the holding direction. With or without saying SW, given that it's standard (right) turns, I cannot see any of the other 3 choices as being viable options.

 

[azure]

After re-reading the article from post #24, I am confused as to how (in the first given example of SW hold) B is not the obvious answer. Given that, I am now lost again on the value of the holding direction. With or without saying SW, given that it's standard (right) turns, I cannot see any of the other 3 choices as being viable options.

It's B because it's SW of the fix, with right turns. The 220 radial is defined with respect to the VOR, the cardinal direction is needed because you could be asked to hold either SW or NE of the fix.

If that still isn't clear, look at the second example in the article, which is a hold NE of the fix. The answer is D because the clearance said left turns, but would be C if the turn direction were omitted (since standard == right turns are implied when no turn direction is given).

 

[Jaybird180]

It's B because it's SW of the fix, with right turns. The 220 radial is defined with respect to the VOR, the cardinal direction is needed because you could be asked to hold either SW or NE of the fix.

If that still isn't clear, look at the second example in the article, which is a hold NE of the fix. The answer is D because the clearance said left turns, but would be C if the turn direction were omitted (since standard == right turns are implied when no turn direction is given).

...In the case of the NE direction, the fix would be behind you as you were headed outbound (away from the fix) for standard turns. Correct?

 

[John Collins]

...In the case of the NE direction, the fix would be behind you as you were headed outbound (away from the fix) for standard turns. Correct?

One point of clarification. The direction from the fix is describing where the inbound leg is in relation to the fix, not the entire holding pattern. So ask the question, if I were at the fix, which direction from the fix is the inbound leg located. The inbound leg is the only leg that one uses navigation.

If the hold is at a VOR, the direction will always be along the holding radial, so radial 040 would be hold north east. The only ambiguity is the direction of the turns, standard (right turns) or non standard (left turns).

If instead you are holding at a DME distance on a radial, there are two sides of the fix and two turn directions, or 4 combinations. So hold NE on the 10 DME, 040 radial, the inbound leg is to the NE of the 10 DME. The other side of the fix would be hold SW on 10 DME, 040 radial.

The most ambiguity would be at an intersection between two VORs where you could hold on either radial, on the closer side or further side of the intersection, which makes 4 possible directions each with standard or non standard turns or a total of 8 possible patterns. To distinguish between these possibilities, you are told the VOR, radial, direction from the fix for the inbound leg, and direction of turn.

 

[EdFred]

Maybe this will help:

Note that the radial they tell you to hold on is roughly in the direction they want you to remain FROM the VOR.

I apologize to colorblind people that can't see the colors.


And if at a DME fix....

Someone can correct me if I am wrong.

 

[skidoo]

One point of clarification. The direction from the fix is describing where the inbound leg is in relation to the fix, not the entire holding pattern. So ask the question, if I were at the fix, which direction from the fix is the inbound leg located. The inbound leg is the only leg that one uses navigation.

If the hold is at a VOR, the direction will always be along the holding radial, so radial 040 would be hold north east. The only ambiguity is the direction of the turns, standard (right turns) or non standard (left turns).

If instead you are holding at a DME distance on a radial, there are two sides of the fix and two turn directions, or 4 combinations. So hold NE on the 10 DME, 040 radial, the inbound outbound leg is to the NE of the 10 DME. The other side of the fix would be hold SW on 10 DME, 040 radial.

The most ambiguity would be at an intersection between two VORs where you could hold on either radial, on the closer side or further side of the intersection, which makes 4 possible directions each with standard or non standard turns or a total of 8 possible patterns. To distinguish between these possibilities, you are told the VOR, radial, direction from the fix for the inbound leg, and direction of turn.

This is what I have had trouble with too. And, yours is a great answer. But, it still is easily confused. If the first bold is true, then shouldn't the direction be corrected to the Red bold above? And, if so, then you demonstrate how easy it is to get confused even from those experienced.