Team AeroDynamix Collision

wanttaja said:
In the interim, chew on the attached.

I've rigged up my accident database to be able to enter an aircraft manufacturer and type and generate a set of standard statistics. It also generates the stats to compare the percentages to the overall homebuilt fleet.

Note this is a working product, so there's some casual notes there as well as statistics that don't really lead anywhere. But it might give you an idea what to expect.

The RV-8 listing includes both -8 and -8A models.

Ron Wanttaja
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Great stuff, Ron!
 
I've been over on the VAF website several times in the last few days. It's amazing -- you would never know there was a midair involving an all - RV aerobatics team!

What a shame. That site (and Glen's) have always been my go-to sites for all things related to my airplane. I knew they didn't allow criticism of advertisers, but I had no idea that other such vital information was being supressed.
 
wanttaja said:
In the interim, chew on the attached.

I've rigged up my accident database to be able to enter an aircraft manufacturer and type and generate a set of standard statistics. It also generates the stats to compare the percentages to the overall homebuilt fleet.

Note this is a working product, so there's some casual notes there as well as statistics that don't really lead anywhere. But it might give you an idea what to expect.

The RV-8 listing includes both -8 and -8A models.

Ron Wanttaja
Click to expand...


I wonder, can you sort them by paint jobs? It would be interesting to know the percentage that claim military status in their paint job.:rolleyes2:
 
Henning said:
I wonder, can you sort them by paint jobs? It would be interesting to know the percentage that claim military status in their paint job.:rolleyes2:
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No, but there is a "Flight Suit" flag. :wink2:
Ron Wanttaja
 
Jay Honeck said:
I've been over on the VAF website several times in the last few days. It's amazing -- you would never know there was a midair involving an all - RV aerobatics team!

What a shame. That site (and Glen's) have always been my go-to sites for all things related to my airplane. I knew they didn't allow criticism of advertisers, but I had no idea that other such vital information was being supressed.
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The founder of Team Aerodynamix is also a moderator at VAF so it's no surprise that any discussion of the incident except his statement is being suppressed.
 
Jay Honeck said:
I've been over on the VAF website several times in the last few days. It's amazing -- you would never know there was a midair involving an all - RV aerobatics team!

What a shame. That site (and Glen's) have always been my go-to sites for all things related to my airplane. I knew they didn't allow criticism of advertisers, but I had no idea that other such vital information was being supressed.
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The incident has been reported on VAF (`Mid-air at Tuscaloosa Airshow, pilots OK') including a statement from the Team leader, so the `vital information' hasn't been supressed. However, what Doug does supress on his site is speculation and comment ahead of NTSB findings being published. There are arguments for and against his view on this, but as somebody already said, it's his sandbox and he calls the shots.
 
Dihedral said:
The founder of Team Aerodynamix is also a moderator at VAF so it's no surprise that any discussion of the incident except his statement is being suppressed.
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I'm a huge fan of speculating on crashes. Not because we get to the answer that way, but because it is revealing to discuss all (or some) of the failure modes and maybe how to avoid them.

But in this case, what's the point? Two airplanes got too close together during a multi-aircraft display. I'm sure the display team knows what went wrong and is trying to "work the problem" internally and with the FAA. IMO, there just isn't much to speculate about...
 
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kyleb said:
I'm a huge fan of speculating on crashes. Not because we get to the answer that way, but because it is revealing to discuss all (or some) of the failure modes and maybe how to avoid them.

But in this case, what's the point? Two airplanes go too close together during a multi-aircraft display. I'm sure the display team knows what went wrong and is trying to "work the problem" internally and with the FAA. IMO, there just isn't much to speculate about...
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And......

This is EXACTLY why the FAA has put a halt on aerial fly overs at sporting events by amateur airshow wannabees....


Don't get me wrong... I think it is VERY kool when they do their magic... Right up to the point where the flaming wreckage rains down into packed grandstands of innocent spectators...:sad::sad::sad:... IMHO. YMMV.... Objects in the mirror are closer then they appear,,,,:redface:..

Ps... This post will for sure get be banned from Vans Airforce site...:yes:
 
N801BH said:
And......

This is EXACTLY why the FAA has put a halt on aerial fly overs at sporting events by amateur airshow wannabees....,,:redface:..
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Not sure how that applies here.

What Team Aerodynamix is doing is much more active/involved/dynamic (and dare I say risky) than a "simple" formation flight.

But since you mentioned flyovers, what's different between a formation of RV's over a sporting event vs a formation of T-6's (or any other warbird of your choice) over the same event?
 
kyleb said:
Not sure how that applies here.

What Team Aerodynamix is doing is much more active/involved/dynamic (and dare I say risky) than a "simple" formation flight.

But since you mentioned flyovers, what's different between a formation of RV's over a sporting event vs a formation of T-6's (or any other warbird of your choice) over the same event?
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...

Time will tell sir...... My guess is 100 milllion dollar liability policy will be the deciding factor though...
 
N801BH said:
...

Time will tell sir...... My guess is 100 milllion dollar liability policy will be the deciding factor though...
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Why would the insurance requirements be any different between the RV's and T-6's? I don't think that bogeyman insurance has been a problem (yet).

Of course, now that one branch of the FAA has nutted up over stadium flyovers another branch of the FAA issued waivers for, the resulting bureaucratic poop storm may put an end to homebuilt flyovers (as opposed to airshow performances) anyway.
 
kyleb said:
Why would the insurance requirements be any different between the RV's and T-6's? I don't think that bogeyman insurance has been a problem (yet).

Of course, now that one branch of the FAA has nutted up over stadium flyovers another branch of the FAA issued waivers for, the resulting bureaucratic poop storm may put an end to homebuilt flyovers (as opposed to airshow performances) anyway.
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Agreed sir.....:yes:
 
I'm still trying to figure out the purpose of formation flight outside of a military setting where it serves tactical purpose. :dunno:
 
Henning said:
I'm still trying to figure out the purpose of formation flight outside of a military setting where it serves tactical purpose. :dunno:
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It ain't hard:

To entertain the people on the ground.

To entertain the people in the cockpits.
 
Henning said:
I guess some people are easily entertained.:dunno:
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Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

pe0fWrW.gif
 
Geico266 said:
Do you have a current flight formation card? It is very intense.
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I understand it is, it is intense because it adds multiple levels of risk, only a fraction of which you control. From a risk management perspective, in order to fly formation flight, I should be facing a risk greater than that being imposed by the formation. I have sprayed Boll Weevil 5 abreast, it sure as hell didn't make it more fun. I just don't get it.:dunno:
 
Henning said:
I understand it is, it is intense because it adds multiple levels of risk, only a fraction of which you control. From a risk management perspective, in order to fly formation flight, I should be facing a risk greater than that being imposed by the formation. I have sprayed Boll Weevil 5 abreast, it sure as hell didn't make it more fun. I just don't get it.:dunno:
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But do you have a current flight formation card?
 
overdrive148 said:
But do you have a current flight formation card?
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No, why would I? It's not something I'm interested in doing. If I choose to fly in formation with someone, I require no card. We got the training in Ag, the card is for club stuff, it's nothing from the FAA and nothing I need.
 
overdrive148 said:
The thing Geico asked Henning if he had or not.

http://www.avweb.com/news/airman/184315-1.html

"standards for formation training and flying, a system for proficiency evaluation, and a method for monitoring currency" and whatnot
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Yeah, there's a couple of clubs that hand them out. I think they are a great service for the guys who want to do this stuff, and they do have a good record.

I just never intend to fly in any of these groups.
 
rgmwa said:
The incident has been reported on VAF (`Mid-air at Tuscaloosa Airshow, pilots OK') including a statement from the Team leader, so the `vital information' hasn't been supressed. However, what Doug does supress on his site is speculation and comment ahead of NTSB findings being published. There are arguments for and against his view on this, but as somebody already said, it's his sandbox and he calls the shots.
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Interesting. I just went back over to VAF, clicked on "New posts" again, and saw nothing. And I've done that daily for three days.

That thread must never nave been "new". lol

As for discussions of an accident, why would anyone suppress that? In the end, there are just three reasons to visit VAF or POA:

1. Entertainment
2. Education about aircraft
3. Education about flying

Discussion of accidents is pretty high on my list of reasons for being here. Take that away, and the educational factor goes way down.
 
Henning said:
Yeah, there's a couple of clubs that hand them out. I think they are a great service for the guys who want to do this stuff, and they do have a good record.

I just never intend to fly in any of these groups.
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'Hand them out' is a gross mischaracterization. The Formation and Safety Team has done a tremendous amount of work to create training and performance standards, so much so that FAA allows it to be self-managed by several type clubs (e.g., Red Star Pilots Association, T-34 Association, Classic Jets Association and a few others).

The typical FAST Wingman will have 2-3 dozen hours of dual by the time he receives a recommendation ride, and then a check ride. Ground school is required, there are a substantial number of hand signals to master, and the check ride includes a very challenging oral. It is a significant time and financial investment and is I believe on-par with the Commercial License in terms of the difference it makes in your flying, again - a whole other level.

The local guys who fly in a gaggle to breakfast are nothing like the professionalism I have experienced with the Red Star and T-34 guys, it is an entirely different level of flying, a totally different level of commitment and focus. In the past year I've probably flown about 40 hours in formation, most as GIB for videography but am now actively working on my Wingman card in the Yak.

Safe formation flying requires standards, instruction and practice, lots of practice - this is what FAST and the type clubs offer. I wouldn't fly formation with someone who does not have a Wingman card from a FAST accredited organization.

As for the incident with the RV guys, those of us in the community do certainly hope to get the full debrief and learn from it.

The RV's have much shorter wingspans, are quite a bit lighter, and are typically a bit more quick reacting than my Yak or a T-34 or Nanchang CJ-6 for example, which all combine to make them more challenging in formation - I think the RV guys also fly more acute (forward of the bearing line) than we do since it looks good and that reduces error margin.

Hopefully we learn what happened and can incorporate it into training standards if necessary, but it might have just been a bad day, fortunately nobody hurt.

'Gimp
 
Henning said:
I have sprayed Boll Weevil 5 abreast, it sure as hell didn't make it more fun.
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Henning said:
I'm still trying to figure out the purpose of formation flight outside of a military setting where it serves tactical purpose.
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Which branch of the military is tasked with boll weevil eradication?

Nauga,
cross-indexed
 
nauga said:
Which branch of the military is tasked with boll weevil eradication?

Nauga,
cross-indexed
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The Army. Only time we flew formation was spraying for Boll Weevils. :D
 

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Velocity173 said:
The Army. Only time we flew formation was spraying for Boll Weevils. :D
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I always figured you RW types flew formation for mutual airborne spares support. :D

Nauga,
who knows something greasy is going to fall off.
 
A formation card is only required for formation flight in FAA waivered airspace. Not required for other formation work. We have a local group of RVs who fly together, led and trained by experienced USAF, USN, USMC trained pilots. It is just for fun for us and an excuse to go fly and to make a $100 hamburger run. None of are interested in flying in airshows so we don't pursue FAST cards though a few do have them. We also don't typically fly more than four ship formations either.


Sent from my iPhone
 
Jay Honeck said:
Discussion of accidents is pretty high on my list of reasons for being here. Take that away, and the educational factor goes way down.
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For you. I get more out of VAF helping other builders and getting help from them than anything else, which I find educational. Accident discussion is pretty low on my reasons for being on VAF. Here it's more humorous than educational.

Nauga,
with horses for courses
 
Glasair needs a demo team. Be a heck of a lot more entertaining than slow, plain Jane looking RVs flying around.:D
 
Velocity173 said:
Glasair needs a demo team. Be a heck of a lot more entertaining than slow, plain Jane looking RVs flying around.:D
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Yup, that sounds like a great idea. How about you go on the VAF site and start a thread stating that while asking about the subject of this thread. Please report back. That thread should have a fun if short life.
 
nauga said:
Which branch of the military is tasked with boll weevil eradication?

Nauga,
cross-indexed
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:confused: It's not, though Boll Weevil eradication is a federal program. Bt is an ultra low volume deposition product that gets applied from about 30' (just over the power lines). They used to have us work large areas flying 5 staggered / abreast about 20' apart for 10-20 miles at a time for most efficient coverage since you only have about 3-4 hrs a day around dawn and dusk when you could work. It was easy enough to do back then since everyone used an AgHusky for the contracts because they paid the best. It wasn't fun, that's for sure, just added more risk, at least I was getting paid for it though.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Yep, you can't help but laugh at this board...........:rolleyes:
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Weeeellll...parts of it anyway. I get what I'm here for all the same. Of course in keeping with the turn this thread has taken, if I had any complaints about POA I guess I ought to go to a different website to complain.

OTOH, DR at VAF has been very receptive to my comments when taken offline.

Nauga,
who knows this ain't Burger King
 
nauga said:
So it would seem that you *have* found a reason for formation flight ouside of the military. HTH, HAND.

Nauga,
MOTO
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Yes, starvation is life threatening, land payments needed to be made... I've done lots of things for a pay check that I wouldn't do for fun. Still didn't require a card to do it, a pt 137 sign off covered the whole operation. What I don't understand is people who do it for fun.:dunno: I don't care that they do it, they are welcome to it, it just doesn't seem like a worthwhile risk to me.
 
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