TBM Crash May Implicate ATC

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by CTLSi, Sep 9, 2014.

  1. Kelvin

    Kelvin En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2006
    Messages:
    2,698
    Location:
    Garner NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    KTD
    Oh...how quick we judge others...is 300 hours a year tons of time for a non professional pilot?

    I cannot answer your question...at this point, I don't know anyone who can...

    Note: PA46---TBM700---TBM850---TBM900 time...

    Hypoxia is a killer...

     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2014
  2. N801BH

    N801BH Touchdown! Greaser! Gone West

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    17,188
    Location:
    Jackson Hole Wy
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FBH
    On a Multi million dollar TBM, you would figure they could interface "bitchin Betty" to scream when the cabin loses pressurization.. She surely screams when you get anywhere close to the ground during landings...:yes:...:dunno:..
     
  3. MAKG1

    MAKG1 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2012
    Messages:
    13,409
    Location:
    California central coast
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MAKG
    It amazes me sometimes how much people underestimate hypoxia.

    Yes, the pilot did some really stupid stuff.

    However, the first noticeable symptom of hypoxia is that it makes you dumb as a box of rocks.

    It's plausible (though there is no evidence one way or the other) that the pilot couldn't figure out how to pull the throttle. Yes, hypoxia makes people THAT stupid.

    There are a ton of amusing astronomer stories about wild stupidity at substantially lower altitudes.

    From a PBS blog about a visit to ALMA in Chile (el. 16000):
    It happens to everyone, albeit not always in the same manner, and it's very real. The insidious part is that you often don't realize it's happening to you until afterward.
     
  4. ClimbnSink

    ClimbnSink Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2007
    Messages:
    6,997
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Greg
    Yeah hypoxia is bad, guess what if you are pic and you let hypoxia get you then you screwed up. The guy seems to have been the poster child for the GA flying magazine sells, he still screwed up. This one is all pilot error.
     
  5. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    22,331
    Location:
    Paola, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iBanYou
    Every airplane is built with something we will ultimately find can be improved. That's why they update planes with new ones that have new features.

    I agree, this should be easy.
     
  6. 47PILOT

    47PILOT Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2013
    Messages:
    94
    Location:
    VENTURA CO, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    47PILOT
    Ok, we all get the fact that the "pilot" screwed up. There is clear evidence of that at the bottom of the ocean.
    What myself and I think a few others here are trying to say is that there was a real possibility that, for whatever reason, the pilot was overcome by hypoxia before his brain could process what was happening.
    True he could have been aware of a pressurization problem early enough to take corrective action, and simply didn't take it seriously enough and reacted to slow. I guess we will never really know the answer to that question, but i would like to think that a pilot with his experience didn't make such an irresponsible decision, and there was more to it than that. Yea I know, bad decisions are made by pilots every day, but I think this was something different
     
  7. ClimbnSink

    ClimbnSink Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2007
    Messages:
    6,997
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Greg
    No he screwed up. Not a drunken buzz job gone wrong so we don't want to believe it. But the pilot screwed up just like you and I can.
     
  8. 47PILOT

    47PILOT Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2013
    Messages:
    94
    Location:
    VENTURA CO, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    47PILOT
    We'll there you have it. The one who knows all has spoken.
    Who needs NTSB when you can provide all the answers. I guess we're done here:rolleyes2:
     
  9. ClimbnSink

    ClimbnSink Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2007
    Messages:
    6,997
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Greg
    All bow before the NTSB.:lol: How often do they get it right?:rofl: Besides if anyone if overly fond of blaming pilot error it is the NTSB.:yes:
     
  10. 47PILOT

    47PILOT Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2013
    Messages:
    94
    Location:
    VENTURA CO, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    47PILOT
    Yea, your right. From now on let's just read about an accident, and go by whatever information is provided, no matter how accurate or inaccurate, and make our own final determination.
    Your funny :lol:
     
  11. Rob P.

    Rob P. Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2014
    Messages:
    24
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Rob P.
    Ok, I stayed out of this thread because I thought I'd made myself perfectly clear in my earlier posts and it had devolved to "did not"; "did to" childish rhetoric.

    But, after reading some of the stuff here all I can say is; really?

    I can get it was CAUSED by pilot error. Yep, the guy screwed up. For whatever reason (hypoxia, negligence, or stupidity) he screwed up.

    What I do not get is all the posts about how ATC isn't "supposed to read minds" or can't "fly the airplane instead of the pilot." Really guys? Sarcasm I can understand but that sort of stuff is wacky.

    NO ONE EVER said that ATC should fly the plane. NO ONE EVER said that ATC should have been able to read the pilot's mind. Saying so mulitple times just shows that whomever is posting that drivel is making up stuff just so that they can blame the pilot.

    Which we ALL know is where the blame ultimately rests.

    THE POINT that those of us who are saying differently is that ATC failed in their mission.

    READ MINDS? How about using common sense? TOO BUSY? How about paying attention when mental warning signals start going off? What warning signals? The ones that SHOULD HAVE BEEN TAUGHT but apparently weren't. Or were ignored for reasons yet to come to light.

    Because, as we all know, the blame rests on the failure of the pilot to fly the plane. Everyone else is blameless. Because only the pilot can fly the plane. Everyone else can just go on about his merry way and ignore the plane falling out of the sky after his request for help is denied.

    I find it axiomatic that the word "help" often is said in sentences instead of in 1 short 4-letter word. If you can't recognize that, you have no business being on the other end of the communication line. And, if your TRAINING doesn't incorporate that concept, your training is deficient.

    Yep, the pilot screwed up. He did. But ATC failed miserably in this case as well.

    To paraphrase the tapes:

    Pilot: "Center, we have a potential problem and need to descend..."
    ATC: "Negative pilot. Just continue on..."

    And you think that's OK? Really?
     
  12. BG305

    BG305 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    184
    Location:
    South Florida
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    N22840
    This is where the pilot screwed up. He asked ATC to decend when he had an obvious problem that a lower altitude should have fixed. 1 Aviate( fly the plane) 2 Navigate
    (plan and direct the route or course of a ship, aircraft, or other form of transportation, especially by using instruments or maps.) 3 Communicate( call ATC and let them know why you held to do # 1 and 2).

    It seams the pilot sarted the process at the end and this led to his death. BOTTOM LINE. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO ASK ATC PERMISSION TO DEVIATE FOR THW SAFETY OF THE FLIGHT.
     
  13. teejayevans

    teejayevans Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2013
    Messages:
    1,658
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tom

    Bad paraphrasing...
    Pilot: center we have a bad indication, request descent to 18000
    ATC: descend to FL250, I'll get you lower when I can

    You are entitled to your own opinion, not your own facts.

    At no time did he indicate use the E word, or use problem, or use the immediately, or any other word to convey the situation required an abnormal response
     
  14. roncachamp

    roncachamp Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2008
    Messages:
    7,225
    Location:
    De Pere, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Steven P McNicoll
    That's quite a bit of paraphrasing. The pilot asked for lower and was given lower.
     
  15. Dr. O

    Dr. O Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2008
    Messages:
    2,292
    Location:
    Hemlock, MI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    denny
    We don't know for sure
    We will never know for sure
    In my own mind his judgement was impaired from hypoxia long before he asked for lower the first time (swag, based on no facts)
    Watch the training films of military pilots in the chamber with their O2 masks off and copying a clearance. They all said afterwards they thought they were fine - except the clearance they wrote down was gibberish

    I long ago decided that if I sense there is a problem and I need higher, lower, left, right, faster, slower, whatever, I will just do it.
    I will call ATC if and when I have time.

    I believe in the big sky theory. Just because I am 500 feet higher or lower, turning 90 degrees, or whatever, I do not anticipate an instantaneous crash. The FAA can fight with me later .:D
     
  16. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    39,482
    Location:
    Ft Lauderdale FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iHenning
    Actually, turns out the gear horn was just non functional, they missed it on annual. This is another reason I normally do owner assist annuals, I just didn't have the time this time.

    I doubt the TBM has a CVR, but with most glass panels, they seem to be able to pull data from them like a quasi DFDR.
     
  17. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    39,482
    Location:
    Ft Lauderdale FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iHenning
    Yeah, by the time you notice it in speech, they're near done.
     
  18. N801BH

    N801BH Touchdown! Greaser! Gone West

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    17,188
    Location:
    Jackson Hole Wy
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FBH

    Hmmmm... I can't wait to see the outcome the FAA has on the A&P and IA who signed off on that annual... Care to name names??:dunno:
     
  19. teejayevans

    teejayevans Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2013
    Messages:
    1,658
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tom
    If I'm on a victor airway, I would at least turn 10 degrees left or right...todays navigation systems can be awfully precise.
     
  20. gismo

    gismo Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2005
    Messages:
    12,674
    Location:
    Minneapolis
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iGismo
    I guess the answer to both questions is yes. And only human.
     
  21. Kelvin

    Kelvin En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2006
    Messages:
    2,698
    Location:
    Garner NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    KTD
    The data the G-1000 collects is impressive...

    I used to collect it and look at it on http://cirrusreports.com/
     
  22. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    11,298
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    weilke
    Not sure how much of that data will be retrievable after 12 months salt water bath. The ntsb has done some Interesting work reading out chips that had all their feet burned off, if the plane is raised, maybe they can reconstruct the g1000 data as well.
     
  23. Dave Theisen

    Dave Theisen Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    1,901
    Location:
    Marietta, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dave Theisen
    Could the controller picked up on what was really going on, maybe, but you really can't blame him based on the info he was given. All the pilot told him was he had a "wrong indication" and needed to get down to 18,000'. To say that the controller should have immediately recognized he was hypoxic and cleared him down to 10,000 based on that info is ridiculous. Even if the pilot didn't declare an emergency, if he at least used the word "pressurization", he might have gotten a little more attention. I can think of several "wrong indications" that I might want to leave FL280 for FL180 because that would probably be enough to get me out of IMC or icing conditions.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  24. Kelvin

    Kelvin En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2006
    Messages:
    2,698
    Location:
    Garner NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    KTD
    Yeah...the data is collected on a SD card...I have no idea how moisture/submersion would affect the card...
     
  25. Jaybird180

    Jaybird180 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2010
    Messages:
    8,854
    Location:
    Near DC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jaybird180
    I seriously doubt the IA signed off and noted 'I forgot to check the gear horn.' Most likely he will say, 'Everything was ship shape when I signed off on it.'
     
  26. Rob P.

    Rob P. Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2014
    Messages:
    24
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Rob P.
    This is where people seem to be going wrong and making up facts no one is suggesting except the naysayers. Everyone seems to be saying that because the controller couldn't recognize exactly what the problem was, he was OK to do nothing.

    ATC didn't need to know EXACTLY what the problem was. That there might be a problem & the pilot NEEDing a change in flight level should have been enough to trigger some sort of action by ATC.

    What the TBM got was, essentially, nada.

    Which means that there is no procedure &/or no training, or the controller blew it.

    I love all the "well, the pilot should have just descended and then dealt with the fallout..." stuff. Really? Just push the yoke over and rapidly descend in the busiest airspace in the world without clearance? Over all those shoot down airplanes that deviate without clearance first and ask questions later type airspaces?

    The fallout we'd be discussing had that happened would be shrapnel not paperwork.

    I guess it comes down to this: Would YOU personally be comfortable with that controller on the line with you if YOU had a problem and needed something "unconventional"? This is not asking if YOU are capable of handling the "potential emergency" you are dealing with. This is asking if YOU are OK with needing something from THAT GUY and he's asleep at the switch and tells you that you can't do what you're planning on, or needing to be, doing?

    Are YOU ok with that?
     
  27. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    14,294
    Location:
    PUDBY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Richard Palm
    That's quite an exaggeration.
     
  28. RotorAndWing

    RotorAndWing Final Approach

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2008
    Messages:
    8,496
    Location:
    Other side of the world
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Rotor&Wing
    Yet another one that " doesn't get it". :nonod:
     
  29. Jaybird180

    Jaybird180 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2010
    Messages:
    8,854
    Location:
    Near DC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jaybird180
    Seems like this has become another hi wing vs lo wing debate.
     
  30. ClimbnSink

    ClimbnSink Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2007
    Messages:
    6,997
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Greg
    Are all you 'ATC screwed up' guys cowards expecting some ATC hero stuff to bail you out when your pilot stuff is lacking?
     
  31. olasek

    olasek Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,571
    Location:
    Oakland, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    olasek
    Far from true.
     
  32. Kelvin

    Kelvin En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2006
    Messages:
    2,698
    Location:
    Garner NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    KTD
    Central NC isn't exactly the world's busiest airspace...


    I am not sure how many planes have been shot down due to deviating into restricted airspace here in the US...but I don't get out much...can you perhaps point me to that number?
     
  33. roncachamp

    roncachamp Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2008
    Messages:
    7,225
    Location:
    De Pere, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Steven P McNicoll
    Where you're going wrong is asserting that the controller did nothing.
     
  34. Zeldman

    Zeldman Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2014
    Messages:
    7,948
    Location:
    NM or the emergency room...
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Billy
    Yes, very obviously.

    Saying ATC is responsible for this flight is like saying the police are responsible for your driving. :rofl:
     
  35. Jimmy cooper

    Jimmy cooper En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2013
    Messages:
    4,327
    Location:
    Baltimore md.
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jim cooper
    It's handed down from days of old on board ship. The pilot ( captain) is ultimately in charge. As it should be. Other wise it becomes Abbott and Costello. The ATC did exactly what was requested.....as he should have. The pilot was -is responsible and that's the way it will play out. The pilot, like the pilot in buffalo, like the pilots in the French debacle screwed up badly. To say the ATC fellow should have behaved as a den mother is absurd. That's not his job.
     
  36. olasek

    olasek Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,571
    Location:
    Oakland, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    olasek
    Wrong question. Yes, I would be perfectly comfortable with THAT GUY because I wouldn't be asking him for permission if I had to do something in an emergency, so I would be fine with any controller even one that was asleep, literally. If you still fail to grasp this concept - either read this thread in it's entirety or get yourself a pilot's license and learn how the system works, and it was designed this way for a reason to remove any ambiguity who is responsible for what.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2014
  37. N747JB

    N747JB Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2011
    Messages:
    5,840
    Location:
    Atlanta
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    John
    Last week I told ATC I wanted a block altitude from FL190-210 for cloud clearance, if they could do it fine, if not it was going to be bumpy. Should she have cleared me to 230 to make sure I was OK? :dunno: No, her options were basically yes or no!;)
    My experience with ATC over the last 30 years is they will try to do what you ask and it's my responsibility to tell them what I need or want.:D
     
  38. JeffDG

    JeffDG Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2009
    Messages:
    17,510
    Location:
    Oak Ridge, TN
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    JeffDG
    Might be recoverable if you went down in a lake, but salt water will destroy it pretty quickly.
     
  39. Rob P.

    Rob P. Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2014
    Messages:
    24
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Rob P.
    Oh, I get it. In my real life I teach beginner and advanced firearms as well as CCW training. I carry a firearm every day. In MY WORLD, if someone screws up, people die. As a result, safety is top priority and no one EVER gets to ignore an "indication of a problem."

    So, yeah, I really get it.

    What you don't get is that when bad things start to happen, people are supposed to act. That's called stepping up. When you are the "go to guy" you are putting yourself in the position of BEING the guy who is supposed to step up. Sometimes, when that person fails to step up, other people die. After that, someone is supposed to investigate and then make changes in procedures so that it doesn't happen again.

    I have lots of personal stories to illustrate this point but I think I've made myself clear enough. But then;

    Apparently, in the the flying world, that doesn't happen. Instead it's blame the dead guy, twist and ignore facts, and generally make up stuff while guzzling a beer or 3 and thanking God it wasn't you.

    Which, incidentally, it couldn't have been because you are perfect and infallible. :rolleyes2:

    Which mindset then leads to the inevitable comments like this one:

    You should consider telling the surviving family members your little "joke." Maybe they'll find it funny. Maybe not. I'm betting they won't.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2014
  40. RotorAndWing

    RotorAndWing Final Approach

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2008
    Messages:
    8,496
    Location:
    Other side of the world
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Rotor&Wing


    Trying to equate a pilot error accident to concealed carry is, well, just stupid.

    You obviously don't have much aviation experience (it shows) and you obviously don't understand pilot-controller communication.

    You're not impressing anyone with the gun crap, really. :nonod: :rolleyes2: