TBM Crash May Implicate ATC

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by CTLSi, Sep 9, 2014.

  1. ClimbnSink

    ClimbnSink Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2007
    Messages:
    6,997
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Greg
    Not a joke. You insisting on ATC saving the guy is the same as the little old ladies that insist the police will save them therefore your training and icky guns aren't necessary. When seconds count the police and a polite request getting you a lower altitude are minutes away. You support my theory, gun guys are afraid of everything.
     
  2. Rob P.

    Rob P. Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2014
    Messages:
    24
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Rob P.
    1) Not equating a plane crash to concealed carry. I AM making a reference to the fact that firearms are dangerous and that if you work in that industry you notice "indications of a problem" and those things tend to get immediate and priority attention.

    Unfortunately, in the aviation world, "indications of a problem" don't get priority attention. In fact, as in this case, they barely get any attention at all.

    2) Have been upfront that I'm not very experienced in aviation. That doesn't diminish my beliefs or my own knowledge. We are all the sum of our experiences and knowledge. Mine is different than yours but just as valid.

    3) Wasn't trying to impress anyone. Was merely trying to explain that in my world you don't get a free pass to criticize the dead guy and say that if only he had only done it right he'd be alive today. But hey, if it makes you feel better, you can believe that I'm just some stupid gun nut.

    In the end I hope that your life's Dominos never begin to unexpectedly cascade while you sit and wonder "wait...what?" as everyone around pops another beer and says "if only..."
     
  3. Rob P.

    Rob P. Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2014
    Messages:
    24
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Rob P.
    Interesting theory.

    Usually it's the gun guys who get shot defending the guys with the theories. Because, you know, theories are so dam impregnable. Or was it the skull of the guy with the theory???
     
  4. olasek

    olasek Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,571
    Location:
    Oakland, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    olasek
    So do carry this firearm proudly and live in YOUR WORLD but don't try to pilot an airplane because you clearly have no propensity to understand 'That World'.

    How do you know it doesn't happen? It does happen, there is NTSB investigation, etc, potential FAA actions, etc - by the way it is all public data readily accessible, it is probably much more transparent and under public scrutiny than in your firearms world.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2014
  5. RotorAndWing

    RotorAndWing Final Approach

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2008
    Messages:
    8,496
    Location:
    Other side of the world
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Rotor&Wing
    :rolleyes2:

    :rofl::rofl::rofl:
     
  6. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    14,291
    Location:
    PUDBY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Richard Palm
    I wonder if you understand the fact that in aviation, the "go to guy," the one who is supposed to step up or others will die, is the pilot in command. That's the meaning and importance of the regulation designated as 14 CFR 91.3:

    §91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.

    (a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

    (b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.

    (c) Each pilot in command who deviates from a rule under paragraph (b) of this section shall, upon the request of the Administrator, send a written report of that deviation to the Administrator.

    Controllers can offer help, but they are not the final authority. Many of them are not even pilots, and even if they were, there would be no guarantee that they would always recognize the severity of a vaguely described problem.
     
  7. Everskyward

    Everskyward Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2005
    Messages:
    31,474
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Everskyward
    Yes....
     
  8. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    39,482
    Location:
    Ft Lauderdale FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iHenning
    No, and I seriously doubt they will even go into it since there were no injuries.
     
  9. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    39,482
    Location:
    Ft Lauderdale FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iHenning
    The NTSB is correct in what they state, or they don't state it. The reason they are so fond of Pilot Error is that most accidents are pilot error. It'll get more interesting when we have autonomous planes.
     
  10. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    39,482
    Location:
    Ft Lauderdale FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iHenning
    Yes, most definitely, the controlled doesn't control my flight, the controller controls the airspace. There was absolutely nothing, not even a suggestion in the AIM much less a rule in the FARs that prevented him from putting on his O2, pushing the yoke forward, chopping the power and taking a sled ride for 10'000' which is what I would have done. As I was pushing forward and chopping the power, I would hit the PTT and TELL ATC, not ask, TELL them that "(xxx Center, 0TB, I have a pressure problem and am heading for 10,000."

    You point out the problem, he didn't ask for anything unconventional, he asked for something conventional, a lower altitude. He said he had "a bad indication", that does not indicate an emergency, so the controller used the normal methods of protecting the airspace to get him lower.

    If you ask for lower, they will assure the airspace is coordinated for you being lower prior to issuing the new clearance, that is their job. If you declare an emergency and head for lower, then they will shove everybody out of your way as you're coming. The PIC owns two three links in the accident chain. He didn't recognize/treat a problem for what it was, he did not don his O2, he did not declare an emergency and descend. Their death is of his doing as he could have prevented them.

    As for your gun training, all you do is teach scared people that gun violence is the answer to their weakness and fear. Comparing that to anything like ATC is completely idiotic.

    In comparison to what you say about the ATC handling of this is like saying someone armed needs permission from the Police before they can shoot, and while standing there with Gun in hand on the phone with 911, they were shot by their assailant waiting for permission, so it's the cop's fault.
     
  11. roncachamp

    roncachamp Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2008
    Messages:
    7,225
    Location:
    De Pere, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Steven P McNicoll
    No, you really don't get it.
     
  12. JeffDG

    JeffDG Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2009
    Messages:
    17,510
    Location:
    Oak Ridge, TN
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    JeffDG
    So...let's carry your analogy forward, shall we.

    You're a CCW instructor. You notice one of your students has some bags under his eyes and says he had to sleep on the couch the night before. You sympathize with him, offer to help and think nothing more of it.

    That night he shoots his entire family.

    You're saying that you are responsible for those deaths because you had "indications of a problem" and you didn't step up and take the guy's gun away. I mean you were the "go to guy" right, and you didn't take the little informAtion you had and read the guys's mind that he was about to snap, so obviously you're responsible.
     
  13. RotorAndWing

    RotorAndWing Final Approach

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2008
    Messages:
    8,496
    Location:
    Other side of the world
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Rotor&Wing
    Yep.....
     
  14. Jaybird180

    Jaybird180 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2010
    Messages:
    8,854
    Location:
    Near DC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jaybird180
    I think you guys are steeped in one way of thinking and cannot get out of the box that someone else built for you.

    Yes, the pilot screwed up. Maybe he didnt notice the bad indication early enough, or maybe he was already compromised when the indicator flashed.

    I think the above poster is only saying: Lets be open and take a fresh look at our protocols and perhaps we can find ways to improve safety by better pilot-controller communications.

    Analogy- if your best friend says that he and his wife are having issues and they later get a divorce its not your fault. But if you value the sanctity of marriage and you value the friendship you would know that he's reaching out for help and be there for him.
     
  15. roncachamp

    roncachamp Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2008
    Messages:
    7,225
    Location:
    De Pere, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Steven P McNicoll
    I think we all agree that the pilot did not communicate well. There are some who believe the controller should have recognized that the pilot was hypoxic from his transmission stating that he had a bad indication. Those folks are wrong.
     
  16. Dave Theisen

    Dave Theisen Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    1,898
    Location:
    Marietta, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dave Theisen
    Even if the controller immediately gave him what he was asking for, a descent to FL180, it probably wouldn't have made a difference.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2014
  17. roncachamp

    roncachamp Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2008
    Messages:
    7,225
    Location:
    De Pere, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Steven P McNicoll
    Did you mean to write "wouldn't" there? "Would" doesn't seem to fit the tone of your statement.
     
  18. Dave Theisen

    Dave Theisen Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    1,898
    Location:
    Marietta, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dave Theisen

    Oops. Fixed it.
     
  19. N801BH

    N801BH Touchdown! Greaser! Gone West

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    17,188
    Location:
    Jackson Hole Wy
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FBH
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by N801BH [​IMG]
    Hmmmm... I can't wait to see the outcome the FAA has on the A&P and IA who signed off on that annual... Care to name names??:dunno:




    Interesting answer...

    So, the FAA's policy is ( if no one is hurt, even though the plane gets destroyed ), there will be NO investigation and sanctions against the FAA certified A&P and IA who clearly didn't perform their duties to the FAA's high standards??:dunno:...:confused:....:rolleyes2:
     
  20. Melting

    Melting Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2011
    Messages:
    58
    Location:
    Yuma
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Melting
    The pilot bears complete responsibility. He should have descended to the appropriate altitude immediately, declared an emergency when able, but the pilots responsibilityis to take the appropriate action to maintain the safety of flight. Not wait for permission from atc which in reality has no authority or responsibility at all over the pilots operation of the aircraft. The pilot is the "final authority" as to the operation of the aircraft. The pilot also bears full responsibility as to how that authority is implemented ( or not )
     
  21. Jaybird180

    Jaybird180 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2010
    Messages:
    8,854
    Location:
    Near DC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jaybird180
    I understand your position and also your absolute need to be right. But by saying they are WRONG clearly sets up a this or that view of the situation. In a disagreement its usually a little of this and a little of that in a way that few could ever imagine, a paradigm shift.
     
  22. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2005
    Messages:
    13,443
    Location:
    kojc, kixd, k34
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Matthew
    I'm curious about a few things: was his wife also a pilot (I think I saw she was), TBM experience?

    How do the masks in the cockpit work? Do they automatically start feeding O2 when pulled from where thegy are stowed? Do they have to be armed? Is it possible for one mask to get O2 and the other not (do they draw from the same source)?
     
  23. N801BH

    N801BH Touchdown! Greaser! Gone West

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    17,188
    Location:
    Jackson Hole Wy
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FBH
    That is NOT exactly true....

    Since 9-11 , controllers are instructed, in fact REQUIRED... to do whatever is needed in the event of a flight that wants to change their destination mid flight without a GREAT excuse and not using the "key" words for that request...:yesnod:
     
  24. Jimmy cooper

    Jimmy cooper En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2013
    Messages:
    4,327
    Location:
    Baltimore md.
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jim cooper
    Apparently your so close to DC that the hot gaseous state of politicians has affected your thinking. It is not" a little of this or a little of that " in this case. The pilot screwed the pooch. When you go high, in a performance aircraft your in the big boys club and must accept that responsibility. Get a grip.
     
  25. roncachamp

    roncachamp Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2008
    Messages:
    7,225
    Location:
    De Pere, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Steven P McNicoll
    It's not that way in this case.
     
  26. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    22,330
    Location:
    Paola, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iBanYou
    "Worked when I tested it. Must have broken. **** happens."
     
  27. jesse

    jesse Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2005
    Messages:
    15,581
    Location:
    Lincoln, NE
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jesse
    +1...
     
  28. 3393RP

    3393RP Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2012
    Messages:
    1,396
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    3393RP
    How sad that the O2 masks are just right there...what happened?

    [​IMG]
     
  29. Pedals2Paddles

    Pedals2Paddles Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2014
    Messages:
    1,216
    Location:
    FDK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pedals2Paddles
    So because he died as a result of his own errors, he can't be held responsible for those errors and the blame gets passed on to whomever is next in line?? But if he lived, would it be ok to blame him for his own errors??



    PS - I like guns. I have one. I believe in them. And I also believe in being responsible for your actions over coddling.
     
  30. jesse

    jesse Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2005
    Messages:
    15,581
    Location:
    Lincoln, NE
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jesse
    That's pretty damn convenient, ugly as sin, but convenient for sure.
     
  31. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2005
    Messages:
    13,443
    Location:
    kojc, kixd, k34
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Matthew
    That's part of why I asked earlier - what starts the O2 flow? If the masks are so easy to grab, right there, and (I'm assuming his wife was also front seat) neither of them seemed to have put them on.

    Yeah, hypoxia makes you stupid, but wow, they were so close.
     
  32. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    6,433
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PaulS
    I really think this guy was in denial when and if his neurons were firing properly when he saw the indication of a problem. I think in his mind this just couldn't happen.

    I think it reinforces, in my mind anyway, that if you get a life or death indication like this, where getting lower or maybe landing is the correct response to the indication, you act on the indication, then sort out whether it was a real problem or not from a safe vantage point.
     
  33. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2005
    Messages:
    13,443
    Location:
    kojc, kixd, k34
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Matthew
    From AIM:
    6-1-2(a) ... An aircraft is in at least an urgency condition the moment the pilot becomes doubtful about position, fuel endurance, weather, or any other condition that could adversely affect flight safety.


    I'd say the "you are going to die" alarm is a pretty good indicator that flight safety is about to be adversely affected.
     
  34. Jaybird180

    Jaybird180 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2010
    Messages:
    8,854
    Location:
    Near DC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jaybird180
    Some folks would never taxi out of parking.
     
  35. silver-eagle

    silver-eagle En-Route

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2005
    Messages:
    4,647
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    ~John
    I would suggest that most accidents in general are "pilot" or user error. I'm just surprised the insurance companies have not added culpability clauses to all policies.
     
  36. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    14,291
    Location:
    PUDBY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Richard Palm
    Given that all pilots make mistakes, who would buy such policies?
     
  37. FastEddieB

    FastEddieB Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2013
    Messages:
    8,200
    Location:
    Mineral Bluff, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fast Eddie B
    Exactly.

    And about half of all drivers involved in traffic accidents would not be covered under a similar scheme.

    Makes no sense.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2014
  38. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    22,330
    Location:
    Paola, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    iBanYou
    That would defeat the purpose of insurance.
     
  39. Jaybird180

    Jaybird180 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2010
    Messages:
    8,854
    Location:
    Near DC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jaybird180
    This seems appropriate here, although written for another context

     
  40. ClimbnSink

    ClimbnSink Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2007
    Messages:
    6,997
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Greg
    Why is everyone afraid to be captain?