Talk to me about formation flying

MetalCloud

MetalCloud

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MetalCloud
Please :)

A buddy and I want to head somewhere together in tandem. Can someone give me the rundown of how that's logistically done? I know bits and pieces but it would be good to get an overview, tips, lessons learned, etc. Thank you!
 
Having little to no experience with formation flying, I'd say:

If you want to do formation flying, get some training first. That training would hopefully teach you what you'd need to know in order to safely fly in formation.

If you want to fly to the same place at the same time (but not necessarily in formation), plan and brief the flight together and fly with one of you a mile or so in trail of the other. That way you can keep visual separation (and talk on 122.75, if you want) and depart/arrive within minutes of each other. (I've been involved in flights like this before and it's essentially like flying a single plane with "traffic in sight" the whole way.)
 
Ah!!! Ok. That second part is what I'm getting at. Maybe not formation flying like the Blue Angels.... just the whole "Flight of 2" thing

I assume we'd tell ground control of departure request..... flight of 2 to KXYZ.Then how does it work with flight following? The lead plane initiates the call and receives the squawk? Do both pilots monitor ATC, with 122.75 on the second COM?
 
Be a little more descriptive on what you want to do. Are you wanting to fly formation? Or just fly to the same place in sight of one another?

Edit: I guess we posted at the same time. Call for flight of 2, lead has the squawk, #2 is in stby and follows lead on the frequency changes. Have a plan to split up and deconflict if necessary.
 
James331 said:
It's when you fly next to another airplane, some folks says you should tell the other pilot before you do this, I just think they are anti social ;)
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Totally. Yeah, who doesn't like a nice surprise!
 
Cooter143 said:
Be a little more descriptive on what you want to do. Are you wanting to fly formation? Or just fly to the same place in sight of one another?
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The latter. I'm sorry about the confusion there. See? I have much to learn :)
 
Believe it or not, you do a better job at matching speed and motion if you're closer rather than farther!
 
mkosmo said:
Believe it or not, you do a better job at matching speed and motion if you're closer rather than farther!
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I believe it, I just don't intend to try it without getting some training first.

To the OP, when friends and I have done this in the past we simply acted as 2 or 3 separate flights and all talked to ATC and monitored 122.75 in order to communicate with each other, if needed. We were approximately 1 mile in trail of each other and also staggered our altitude a bit, JUST IN CASE. One guy at 3300MSL, one at 3000MSL and another at 2700MSL (or something to that effect).
 
Good call @mjburian . So you have 122.75 dialed in, monitor it while actively working with ATC, and just switch over as needed?
 
I definitely wouldn't try formation unless you've had some dedicated training. Flying with a half-mile separation is do-able but requires some planning and forethought. Some things to consider beforehand: initial joinup/separation, positioning and how to handle any turns, radio and comms, lost sight gameplan, how/when to take separation for landing.
 
mjburian said:
I believe it, I just don't intend to try it without getting some training first.

To the OP, when friends and I have done this in the past we simply acted as 2 or 3 separate flights and all talked to ATC and monitored 122.75 in order to communicate with each other, if needed. We were approximately 1 mile in trail of each other and also staggered our altitude a bit, JUST IN CASE. One guy at 3300MSL, one at 3000MSL and another at 2700MSL (or something to that effect).
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I can hear the CA going off already lol. I feel bad for that controller.
 
Cooter143 said:
I definitely wouldn't try formation unless you've had some dedicated training. Flying with a half-mile separation is do-able but requires some planning and forethought. Some things to consider beforehand: initial joinup/separation, positioning and how to handle any turns, radio and comms, lost sight gameplan, how/when to take separation for landing.
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Half-mile is seriously harder than 100', which is seriously harder than 30'. I haven't done anything tighter than that, but I imagine it still gets easier until you're starting to feel wake. If you're not comfortable even at 30', sure, keep it back some, but half mile formation is just loosely flying near somebody and will require more vigilance than getting closer.
 
mkosmo said:
Half-mile is seriously harder than 100', which is seriously harder than 30'. I haven't done anything tighter than that, but I imagine it still gets easier until you're starting to feel wake. If you're not comfortable even at 30', sure, keep it back some, but half mile formation is just loosely flying near somebody and will require more vigilance than getting closer.
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I disagree. Closer requires more vigilance. It's easier in close only if you don't know how to maintain position further out. For someone with no training, encouraging them to tighten up to formation by implying it is easier is bad advice.
 
When I have done it, we haven't gotten FF but just stayed in contact with one another.

Going to be better to take off a minute a part and catch up rather than try and take off together and match speeds while climbing and then configuring for cruise, etc.

Make sure you know what you are going to do if you lose sight of one another.
Don't lose sight of one another.

Hopefully one of you has done this before.
I never got training but I have flown side by side with people that do it frequently.

I'd say if neither of you have, this may not be a good decision.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
When I have done it, we haven't gotten FF but just stayed in contact with one another.

Going to be better to take off a minute a part and catch up rather than try and take off together and match speeds while climbing and then configuring for cruise, etc.

Make sure you know what you are going to do if you lose sight of one another.
Don't lose sight of one another.

Hopefully one of you has done this before.
I never got training but I have flown side by side with people that do it frequently.

I'd say if neither of you have, this may not be a good decision.
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And if you do get FF, lead gets it for the whole flight and the rest of you squawk standby.

I do like the bit about catch-up. Totally agree. Significant maneuvering in a close flight takes significantly more practice and discipline.
 
Cooter143 said:
I disagree. Closer requires more vigilance. It's easier in close only if you don't know how to maintain position further out. For someone with no training, encouraging them to tighten up to formation by implying it is easier is bad advice.
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To a point. But relative motion is significantly more difficult to discern farther out. Formation flying is all about that relative motion. There's a happy medium, but it's absolutely on the close side. You just have to remember to lock your eyes on your lead and not let that point move on any axis.
 
MetalCloud said:
Good call @mjburian . So you have 122.75 dialed in, monitor it while actively working with ATC, and just switch over as needed?
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That's exactly how we did it. To more closely match our last experience, though, make sure it's one of the more turbulent days and keep forgetting which radio you're transmitting on. ;-)
 
mkosmo said:
I can hear the CA going off already lol. I feel bad for that controller.
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We were handed off to 3 different sectors and nobody seemed to mind. They all knew we were "together" but they didn't instruct any of us to squawk standby (which I'd expected to hear, but never did).
 
mkosmo said:
To a point. But relative motion is significantly more difficult to discern farther out. Formation flying is all about that relative motion. There's a happy medium, but it's absolutely on the close side. You just have to remember to lock your eyes on your lead and not let that point move on any axis.
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The cone for being in position grows as you move away from lead. The further away you are the more room you have to maneuver in, and the more time you have to react to leads changes. There are different positions that can be maintained for different phases of flight and for different purposes but for an experienced person, there is significantly more threat in getting too close and not knowing the right method of maneuvering to a safer place. For example, getting stepped up to co-altitude and having lead turn into you.
There are different challenges to the different positions, but I don't think communicating to an inexperienced pilot that the closer the better is a good idea. Just my .02.
 
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First, work out a system of communication. I like 122.75. Next, work out a plan, i.e. where you will go, at what altitude. What will be your climb out, cruise, and approach speeds. Also, plan out contingencies, like aborts. EVERYTHING gets planned. No surprises.

Next, have the pilot of the number 2 ship look at the number one ship from 50 feet behind and to the side. Try and get good visual clues from the airframe To visually confirm position.

Number 1 ship mans the comms and has transponder duty. Number 2 ship flies 50 feet behind and to the side. Number 2's world is number 1. There is nothing else.

Number 1 ship flies the plan. That is, number 1 ship stays on altitude and on speed, a different way to fly if you haven't done a lot of IFR. Number 1 ship should go out and fly this way a bit. Have to stay on altitude and speed so the other guy doesn't have to chase you all over the sky.

Plans for aborts at every stage of the flight. Fly the plan. Rehearse the damn thing on the ground before you go, fly the plan.

When its time to go you start up together. Ship one lead the way out to the runway with ship 2 in trail. Work out a plan to do run ups that doesn't involve blasting each other. Ship one lines up on the left side of the runway, ship two on the right. Ship one goes, ship two counts to twenty and goes. Fly the plan.

If you go out with a yahoo idea to fly formation you could wind up in dutch. If you make a plan and stick with it you can do it safely. Just remember to account for contingencies.
 
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Cooter143 said:
I disagree. Closer requires more vigilance. It's easier in close only if you don't know how to maintain position further out. For someone with no training, encouraging them to tighten up to formation by implying it is easier is bad advice.
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Exactly. While determining position is far easier up close, maintaining it will be more difficult over time. All attention is on lead so traffic & instrument scan will suffer. More movements in close so you'll be more fatigued. Far away is easier. Allows time for position errors and to divide attention to other tasks.

The act of flying formation isn't that hard. The duties and contingencies with it are the real tasks.
 
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MetalCloud said:
Please :)

A buddy and I want to head somewhere together in tandem. Can someone give me the rundown of how that's logistically done? I know bits and pieces but it would be good to get an overview, tips, lessons learned, etc. Thank you!
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Keep in mind that ATC will treat you like one aircraft. If you intend to stay one mile apart think about splitting up for landing since it is very hard to sequence your approach at that distance
 
Is ATC OK with treating you as one aircraft if you're one mile apart?

How close do you need to be in order to be considered a "flight of 2"?
 
dans2992 said:
Is ATC OK with treating you as one aircraft if you're one mile apart?
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In my experience, yes. Although there may be increased separation, I'm not sure.

How close do you need to be in order to be considered a "flight of 2"?
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I think the standard is to be within a mile, but that usually only occurs in the cruise phase. In the terminal area, much closer.
 
dans2992 said:
Is ATC OK with treating you as one aircraft if you're one mile apart?

How close do you need to be in order to be considered a "flight of 2"?
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Depends on how busy and if you're IFR vs VFR. IFR they add 1 mile sep for the flight. If you're strung out in a non standard formation (greater than 1 mile lateral) then you're taking up a sizable chunk of airspace. If you're VFR, there's no enroute sep outside of B, C & TRSA, so they really don't care on approach control. Tower might care because they could be holding up arrivals and departures for your "flight" arrival. Once again, depends on how busy they are.


Standard sep is 1 mile laterally and 100 ft vertically from lead. Outside of that, you can still be considered a flight, it's just a non standard flight. Excluding OSH mass arrivals, it's really more common for military. For instance in helos doing combat cruise formation. Don't want to be near another aircraft while maneuvering aggressively. A lot of times fighters will do non standard sep on departure as well. Usually done if it's a large flight and then joining (MARSA) with a tanker (ALTRV). They're strung out all over the sky and if you're busy it can be a pain.
 
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Playing "flight" is probably the most annoying thing I had to deal with working tower. Being in "formation" and doing an overhead approach is one thing. Being strung out in trail is another. When it's even just a little bit busy, getting the call signs of the rest of the planes in the flight because some sequencing issues need to be done because they turn up entering the pattern with enough space between themselves to fill the gaps is a pain in the azz for the controller as well as everyone else trying to get a word in edgewise on the frequency. If you're going to be a flight, get in formation and be a flight.
 
The 'best' place to be is on the 'bearing line' about 45 degrees aft of the right wing, slightly stepped down. This puts the wingman on the side where he doesn't have to look cross cockpit to fly.

I would start off by getting no closer than about 30 yards or so from the lead. The join up can be done in trail or a gentle AOB by the lead. Get out on the bearing line and work the closure in a controlled manner.
 
sourdough44 said:
The 'best' place to be is on the 'bearing line' about 45 degrees aft of the right wing, slightly stepped down. This puts the wingman on the side where he doesn't have to look cross cockpit to fly.

I would start off by getting no closer than about 30 yards or so from the lead. The join up can be done in trail or a gentle AOB by the lead. Get out on the bearing line and work the closure in a controlled manner.
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AOB???
 
AOB = angle of bank. Let's say you want to join with pilot Bob. Put the newest pilot as a steady lead, tell him you will meet over 'Mud lake' at 3000'. The wingman comes in at 2500' until lead is in sight and wingman has his fuselage aligned and on the bearing line for join up. Bob could be in a gentle 10* AOB at a known airspeed. The lead will be at a speed to leave some performance for the wingman, yet nowhere near to slow.

Once on the bearing line, the wingman accepts a very controllable rate of closure, co-altitude with the lead. When very new, that closure rate may well go to zero once or twice. No secrets either, except for guage error, the lead's speed is known. Better on the slow side than to fast.

If something goes wrong, power back, go low, and slide back. There is a cone around the lead that the wingman shouldn't infringe upon. I think some have gotten into trouble when they have two wingman and no lead. There is a sharp contrast with the two positions.

All the above said, many will agree with a requirement for formal form training besides reading on the net. Just having some fun.
 
And when you get bored with VFR formation, you do an ILS IMC...baby steps. ;)

 
MetalCloud said:
That's badass!
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Yeah, I think "Lima Lima" flight is mostly prior military fighter pilots so they're pretty used to doing it IMC. Still, pretty good for a bunch of old dudes.:D
 
I've flown on lunch runs with up to four other planes many times. We just take off one at a time, fastest plane first, in rough speed order (sometimes mixed up by how long we take to taxi out). We each call Approach as we climb out and get flight following. I just need to be careful when taking off behind slower planes to either pass them wide before descent or to keep clear as I accelerate downhill. We talk on 122.75 to verify positions so that nobody gets run over.

We're just all on a VFR flight to eat at the same place together. If Champs or Cubs go along, they often leave a little early and stay low. If it's not too cold, we hang out and watch everyone land, because we've never seen a plane land before. Going home afterwards works the same way, we're just not hungry anymore.

Formation skills not required. No joining up, either.
 
Non military, but have done a fair amount of formation. Close formation. Very close formation.
That said, I was never checked out to be the tail airplane, only the lead (skydive operation). The lead is much easier. We just hold a reasonably steady speed, and bank gently. I could look over my shoulder and see the trail pilots eyeballs (yes, that close) just fixated on my wingtip.
 
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