Talk me out of buying a PA-28-180, or not

Patrick

Patrick

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Pat
Hi all!
After owning a 50% share in a 28-140 (160hp O320-D2A) which I sold I’m ready for the next plane. Decided the sweet spot is a late model 28-180 because

- O360-A4M is regarded as a low issue engine, option for MOGAS STC, 20hp more is just the tad I found missing in the 28-140

- trim wheel between seats (personal taste)

- 5“ fuselage stretch (rear seat space)

- dedicated baggage door/compartment

- rounded windows/edges (personal taste)

- not affected by spar fatigue AD (I’d still do the EC, but the constant chord wing seems to have less structural issues which gives me some peace, however irrational that may sound).

So a 75 model popped up. Priced at around 50k. Just shy of 5k AFTT. Engine (overhauled 2008) has 900hrs. Prop 300h.

Standard avionics museum + inop DME.


Plane sat for 3 years and then got a 10k annual in 2019:

Remove engine cylinder assemblies and inspect cylinders and engine parts for presence of corrosion (boroscope inspection and visual inspection).
Performed is removal and disassembly of all four (4) cylinders for inspection. All four cylinders is found corrosion.
All cylinders require honing of inner walls. Performed is cleaning and repair of cylinders by means of honing. Cylinders checked for proper sealing , reassembly and preparation for installation performed.
Cylinders reinstalled to engine. Installation of intake hoses and exhaust muffler performed. Valves assembly reinstalled, valve clearance checked and adjusted. Air intake baffles installed, oil cooler installed (cleaned and flushed). Flexible oil and fuel hoses installed.
Following material is replaced on cylinder No. 1,2,3,4: Plug piston pin; Ring piston compression; Ring oil seal 3/32 diam; Shroud tube; Gasket exhaust; Gasket rocker box cover; Washer exhaust; washer lock; Nut exhaust; Gasket intake; washer plain; Washer lock.
Engine tested during ground engine run-up.
Performed is 400 Hrs inspection of engine; inspect freedom of valve rockers,...SB388C, SB301B.
Performed is cylinder differential compression check SI 1191A Perform flushing of oil cooler and replace oil cooler hoses with new flexible or Teflon (expired 01/2017),
Remove drain and clean fuel filter bowl and screen.
AD2017-16-11_Check for applicability; Inspection of Lycoming connecting rods assemblies (LYC SB632B). Piper SL1141_Gascolator maintenance procedures.
Piper SB 1309A_Fuel tank selector placards examination Lycoming SI 1492D_Piston pin plug wear inspection.
Click to expand...


I’m currently going through the logs. A quick summary:

1975 - The airplane started it's life
in the area of Michigan and Illinois (maintained by various shops in the area like Decatur, KAL-Aero, Northern Air,…)

1984 - New Ailerons / Rudder due to Hail Damage / Aero Flite, Norman, OK

2001 Shock loading inspection @3097h

2003 Wing Walk / Entry Step repaired @3283h

2009 INSTALLED ENGiNE MOUNT
AFTER MAGNAFLUX
INSPECTiON
AND
REPAiNTING iN WHiTE.
INSTALLED
NOSE GEAR WiTH NEW STRUT SEALS
INSTALLED
FACTORY
OVERHAULED ENGiNE LyCOMiNG
0-360 -A4M SIN L- 32348-36€
WITH 4eG
NEW
LORA ENGiNE MOUNTS J -9643-40
NEW DRy AiR
PUMP AA3215CC ShN55807
OHC ALTERNATOR
4111810 SIN1120255
AND NEW V-BELT 73965-015,
AND
Lea NEW
FLEXiBLE HOSES - REPAiREDa
REPAiNTED ALL BATFLE PLATES IN WHiTE AND
INSTALLED NEW
REiNFORCED BAFFLE SEALS
INSTALLED
SENSENiCH PROPELLER 76E8,55-0-60


2009 Engine (Year 2008, overhauled, O-360-A4M S/N L-32348-36E - TT2214h) installed

2013 Engine and Propeller removed and shipped for shockload inspection @ACTT 4459h / ENGTT 602h / PROPTT 1362h

2013 SHOCKLOAD INSPECTION OF ENGINE:
SHOCKLOAD INSPECTION OF ENGINE IS PERFORMED L.A. W. MANUFACTURER
INSTRUCTIONS 60294-7-14 AND SB533B.
ALL APPLICABLE AD'S PERFORMED UP TO DATE.
MAGNETIC PARTICLE INSPECTION IS PERFORMED, SEE WO 27108/13/08.
FLUORESCENT PENETRANT INSPECTION IS PERFORMED, SEE WO 27108/13/09.
NEW PARTS INSTALLED:
- 1EA GASKET SET PN: 75439-1
- 4EA HOSE INTAKE PN: 69603
- 4EA HOSE OIL RETURN PN: STD-1821
- 4EA BEARING MAIN PN: SL16711A
- 2EA BEARING MAIN FRONT PN: SL13884A
- 8EA BEARING CONN. ROD PN: SL13521A
- 8EA BOLT CONN. ROD PN: SL75061
8EA NUT CONN. ROD PN: SL12186
- 8EA TAPPET PN: LRT23381
- 1EA BOLT CRANKSHAFT GEAR PN: STD-2246
- 1EA OIL FILTER PN: AA48110-2
- 1EA MAGNETO PN: 4371
- 1EA MAGNETO PN: 4370
- 8EA SPARK PLUG PN: REM38E
- 8EA THRUST BUTTON PN: SL12892
- 1EA SPRING OIL PRESS. REL. VALVE PN: SL61084
ENGINE TEST-RUN IS PERFORMED ON TESTBENCH AND FOUND SATISFACTORY.
The following work has been carried out on the above aircraft at: 4459.9 A/CTT
Shock load inspection on engine Lycoming O-360-A4M (s/n L-32348-36E) by Loma Air, see Loma Air
WO# 27108/13 for full details
Engine returned from Loma Air with following accessories
Carburetor Avstar D/n 10-5193 and s/n 75119509
Magneto
SICK /n 43/1 and S/n 13041565
Magneto Sick o/n 4370 and s/n 13090538
Starter B&C p/n BC315-100-2 and s/n 03042957
Fuel pump Lycoming p/n LW-15472 with date code 3808
New spark plugs Champion REM38E
IVe
w oi filter element AA48110-2
Installed engine with 4 ea new Lord engine mounts J-9663-40 and new air filter Donaldson P617058
Re-used dry air pump AA3215CC (s/n N5580/) and alternator 4111810 (s/n 1120255)
Installed NEW propeller Sensenich model 76EM8S5-0-60 with s/n 102621K
Cleaned and protected battery box and structure, charged and checked electrolyte level in battery
Replaced both wheel bearinas in nose wheel, checked and intlated tires
All work done in accordance with Piper Archer Maintenance Manual (61-6 / 9

Some pictures attached. I’ll update the thread as I dig through the logs and when I personally go to see the plane to take more pictures.

Any thoughts, good or bad, I’m appreciative.

Thanks!

959996AE-A211-4529-84A4-45C2239A37F5.jpeg 3842AD1E-7E7B-4764-9D94-22CCD0BC0238.jpeg 8C7764B0-187E-4394-8782-68689C5F74F2.jpeg D6D03621-C10B-482D-8F6D-64E6153AD29C.jpeg 01A60A55-EDE1-4F7F-BA2B-55EDFFB10BF4.jpeg EC639613-4BCF-487C-8BBC-4694B50C0F15.jpeg 32FCB89A-A7F8-4224-9506-6FA001AE155C.jpeg
 
Last edited:
Flew the -180 version a lot when I first got my certificate. Really liked it. That plane is still registered after 50 years.

As far as your potential buy, seems to me it has been well maintained. I’d buy it if a pre buy inspection doesn’t turn up any serious hidden problems and it’s close to market (about which I’m clueless) and enjoy it.

Cheers
 
X3 Skier said:
Flew the -180 version a lot when I first got my certificate. Really liked it. That plane is still registered after 50 years.

As far as your potential buy, seems to me it has been well maintained. I’d buy it if a pre buy inspection doesn’t turn up any serious hidden problems and it’s close to market (about which I’m clueless) and enjoy it.

Cheers
Click to expand...
The market is crazy…. Don’t see any planes <100k
 
This 180 appears to be a good deal at that price as long as the Pre Buy inspection does not find major issues.
 
I have a 1965 C model and love it. I wish it was faster, but having put 400 hours over the last 2 years, it does 95% of what I ask her to do.
 
I had a cherokee 140 for 18 years. I wanted a 180, but the 140 was more affordable to purchase (pretty much the same cost to maintain).

I think the 180 would be a good step up.

When I had my 140, there was a time when it was down for maintenance and I borrowed a friend's 180. The extra power was nice, but I kind of liked the lighter feel of the control with the 140. So, be aware that the controls will be a little heavier (but that is pretty much a given with faster aircraft).

Good luck.
 
Have you considered a Bonanza?
Just kidding, but if you are going to jump, what about a Mooney or Tiger? I’m just thinking you’ll pick up some speed.

I was very excited to buy into a 180 partnership until I thought . . . Hmmmm. Maybe a few more knots.

182 or Dakota . . . And here I sit as a renter. So . . . Congrats on your new plane!!!
 
Baron62 said:
This 180 appears to be a good deal at that price as long as the Pre Buy inspection does not find major issues.
Click to expand...

I’m working on it.

Unfortunately the way things are around here is that prebuy inspections aren’t as common and vary greatly on quality.

A higher end maintenance shop will charge a lot, as in between 4-8k on a thorough prebuy. Smaller shops are around 1.5k and apart from noting „seats worn, crack in muffler etc..“ don’t really look detailed enough.

Independent mechanics are rare and many don’t have the in depth knowledge (annual inspection vs. prebuy) of what to look for in particular types.

I have a borescope and will check for airframe/structural corrosion as good as I can. Any pointers which access panels/locations to check?

The Cylinders as well.

I’d like to get the cam inspected too.
 
Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
Have you considered a Bonanza?
Just kidding, but if you are going to jump, what about a Mooney or Tiger? I’m just thinking you’ll pick up some speed.

I was very excited to buy into a 180 partnership until I thought . . . Hmmmm. Maybe a few more knots.

182 or Dakota . . . And here I sit as a renter. So . . . Congrats on your new plane!!!
Click to expand...

Stateside I could probably operate a much bigger plane, but here with Avgas at 12$/Gal, landing fees etc.. I need to keep an eye out for cost. I’ve done the 500kts cruise thing for work for many years, and while I like to go fast, this „own plane thing“ is primarily a long standing dream for shorter flights + to instruct a little IFR with rather than A-B transport.

Even an Arrow would be substantially more expensive (injected, no MOGAS escape), CS prop, retr. gear… it adds up.
 
What country are you in?

As I openly stated . . . I waited for something better and prices skyrocketed. Now I’m stuck renting.

You’ve been an owner and will again! I like that 180. You can’t see the seats while you are sitting on them!
 
Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
Have you considered a Bonanza?
Just kidding, but if you are going to jump, what about a Mooney or Tiger? I’m just thinking you’ll pick up some speed.

I was very excited to buy into a 180 partnership until I thought . . . Hmmmm. Maybe a few more knots.

182 or Dakota . . . And here I sit as a renter. So . . . Congrats on your new plane!!!
Click to expand...

"Hmmmm. Maybe a few more knots." is the danger... there will *always* be a faster airplane...
 
Patrick said:
Unfortunately the way things are around here is that prebuy inspections aren’t as common and vary greatly on quality.
Click to expand...
Turn the prebuy into an annual at a shop of your choice; you pay for the annual, seller pays for airworthiness squawks?
 
Assuming there are no issues that crop up in the pre buy, you will love the 180. Horsepower is a good thing and a bit more weight will help it fly through turbulence. 1000 pound useful load is pretty nice too!
 
Since it started in the US, you can get the details on DVD/CD from the FAA up to the time it left the US and was deregistered. At least it’s some additional info.
 
murphey said:
Since it started in the US, you can get the details on DVD/CD from the FAA up to the time it left the US and was deregistered. At least it’s some additional info.
Click to expand...

Thanks for mentioning it, I requested the information a few days ago.
 
The Log entries in the OP seem to be missing what was done to make a $10k annual in 2019.
 
Domenick said:
The Log entries in the OP seem to be missing what was done to make a $10k annual in 2019.
Click to expand...

Full list here

ENGINE OIL

2 OIL FILTER

3 FILTER VACUUM RELIEF

4 GASKET ANNULAR

5 GASKET SPARK PLUG

6 GASKET VALVE COVER

7 GASKET VALVE ASSY

8 GASKET EXHAUST

9 WASHER (5/16 PLAIN)

10 WASHER (5/16 LOCK)


NUT (5/16)

12 GASKET FUEL INLET STRAINER

13 FUEL INLET HOSE

14 GASKET FUEL GAGE

15 BRAKE LININGS

16 RIVETS

17 O-RING BRAKE CYLINDERS

18 SCREW

19 WASHER

20 SCREW (WING ENDS)

21 COTTER PIN

22 COTTER PIN

23 LOCTITE

24 SCHOTCH BRITE

25 POLISHI PASTE MAXI BLUE

26 FORSH CLEANING AGENT

27 POLISHING CLOTHS

28 POLISHING DISCS

29 CORROSION X FLUID

30 FOAM CLEANER-CABIN

31 PRIMER GREEN

32 SHAMPOO MULTIWASH TURBO

33 MONTAŢNO ČISTILO

34 PETROLEUM CLEANER

35 GREASE MOLYKOTE

36 DINITROL SPRAY

37 ANTISILICON CLEANER

WHITE PAINT PPG

HARDENER PPG

THINNER PPG

PRC SEALANT

PLASTIC GRANULATE

Magnetos_SB1-15A:

43 KIT DISTRIBUTOR GEAR

44 GASKET MAGNETO

45 COTTER PIN MAGNETO SLICK

46 SPRING

Engine:

47 RING PISTON COMPRESSION

48 LOCK PLATE, SHROUD TUBE

49 SEAL SHROUD TUBE

50 RING OIL SEAL 3/32 Dx4

51 HOSE 3/8 I.D.x2 – 1⁄2 long

52 LYC. HOSE CLAMP

53 WASHER LOCK

54 WASHER INTAKE HOSE

55 HYDRO OIL

Performed is 50,100 Hrs inspection and Annual inspection of aircraft IAW approved maintenance programme and aircraft maintenance manual P/N 761-586, Section lll, Table lll-l (Inspection Report, page 662-673).


Performed is servicing as per Section II of Piper PA28-180 AMM P/N 753-586 and lubrication charts Fig. 2-44 to 2-54; Inspection and servicing of landing gear system oleo struts and filling if required/Inspection and servicing of brake system/ Inspection and servicing of tires/Servicing of power plant/Servicing of Propeller/Servicing of fuel system/Servicing of electrical system/Servicing of oil system.


Remove propeller and visually inspect propeller blades, spinner and back plate for sign of damage, corrosion or cracks AIW manufacturer’s instructions (SB R-15A) and reinstall IAW Sensenich metal propeller instructions. Check date of last overhaul.


Remove engine cylinder assemblies and inspect cylinders and engine parts for presence of corrosion (boroscope inspection and visual inspection).


Performed is removal and disassembly of all four (4) cylinders for inspection. All four cylinders is found corrosion.

All cylinders require honing of inner walls. Performed is cleaning and repair of cylinders by means of honing. Cylinders checked for proper sealing , reassembly and preparation for installation performed.

Cylinders reinstalled to engine. Installation of intake hoses and exhaust muffler performed. Valves assembly reinstalled, valve clearance checked and adjusted. Air intake baffles installed, oil cooler installed (cleaned and flushed). Flexible oil and fuel hoses installed.

Following material is replaced on cylinder No. 1,2,3,4: Plug piston pin; Ring piston compression; Ring oil seal 3/32 diam; Shroud tube; Gasket exhaust; Gasket rocker box cover; Washer exhaust; washer lock; Nut exhaust; Gasket intake; washer plain; Washer lock.

Engine tested during ground engine run-up.

Performed is 400 Hrs inspection of engine; inspect freedom of valve rockers,...SB388C, SB301B.

Performed is cylinder differential compression check SI 1191A Perform flushing of oil cooler and replace oil cooler hoses with new flexible or Teflon (expired 01/2017),

Remove drain and clean fuel filter bowl and screen.

AD2017-16-11_Check for applicability; Inspection of Lycoming connecting rods assemblies (LYC SB632B). Piper SL1141_Gascolator maintenance procedures.

Piper SB 1309A_Fuel tank selector placards examination Lycoming SI 1492D_Piston pin plug wear inspection.


Lycoming SI 1409C_Use of oil additive.

Lycoming SB 366C_Carburetor throttle body screw inspect. Lycoming SL 246A (Slick SL4300/6300-74-20-001A); Magneto to engine timing.

LYC SB634_Check for applicability; Cylinder and head assembly serviceable life.

SensenichSBR-15A_Inspection of propeller blades for corrosion.

Engine oil drained and 9L of oil 20W60 added to the system. Oil filter replaced with new P/N CH48110-1, 1EA. Old filter cut and inspected for presence of ferrous particles, no findings. (SB480_F). Oil screen filter at the oil sump cleaned and checked, gasket annular P/N 06E19769-1.00, 1EA replaced with new. Vacuum regulator valve filter P/N B-3-5-1 replaced with new.


Perform pitot-static system test.

Perform magnetic compass compensation.


SLICK SB1-15A. Performed is removal of RH & LH Magnetos Slick. Performed is disassembly of magnetos and replacement of distributor gear assembly K3008, 2EA. Magnetos inspected per SB 1-19 with no findings.

Magnetos reassembled and bench-tested.

Magnetos reinstalled to aircraft, magneto to engine timing set to 25°. Tested during ground run-up.


Performed is removal of fuel tanks, cleaning and re-protection of structure against corrosion. Performed is replacement of fuel float gaskets (2EA) and replacement of fuel vent hose. Reassembly and installation of fuel tanks to aircraft.


Cleaning of flap mount brackets by sanding (sanding made with plastic granules) performed.

Protection and painting performed.


Initial analysis of maintenance records for N_____: analysis of installed components, analysis of service bulletins and AD notes and re-check of applicability.

- Check for up-dates and new AD notes/bulletins which are applicable to N3987X (Aircraft/engine/components).

- Preparation of work request and list of additional works.


Hangaring of N_______ for a period of two Year.
Click to expand...
 
Wiggle the wings and the stabilator. Corrosion concerns will be the biggest thing. Any putting on strut tubes? In the states there's an ad to have an inspection panel installed to check for corrosion on the aft spar I believe. Checkout some of airframe components videos on the PA28. Engine is always a crapshoot regardless of what it looks like.
 
Racerx said:
Wiggle the wings and the stabilator. Corrosion concerns will be the biggest thing. Any putting on strut tubes? In the states there's an ad to have an inspection panel installed to check for corrosion on the aft spar I believe. Checkout some of airframe components videos on the PA28. Engine is always a crapshoot regardless of what it looks like.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Watched them all. This video shows the spar (and a corroded example) too

Is there any way to check the outboard spar for corrosion using a borescope?
 
Patrick said:
Thanks. Watched them all. This video shows the spar (and a corroded example) too

Is there any way to check the outboard spar for corrosion using a borescope?
Click to expand...
I currently own a ‘69 Cherokee 140, and agree with all your original reasons for getting a -180. Access to the spar should be easy by lifting the rear seat bench. You can easily see the attach fittings with a strong flashlight. There are also great borescopes available on Amazon for a few hundred dollars and some even attach to a smartphone . Outside of the fuselage, there is an access panel on the bottom skin that gives access to inspect the spar. Alternatively, remove the fuel tank (held in place by screws only, remove fuel quant. sender wire, unscrew fuel line hose) and you have visual access from there. I removed the tanks for my pre-buy as you see almost everything inside the wing, and with a portable borescope-you could see everything.
With regard to the shockload inspection, it sounds like a propstrike occurred. The part replacement list seems to point to that as well.
The presence of rust on the cylinders after a three year sit make me wonder if it sat outside or near an ocean environment. There was no mention of rust/corrosion on the camshaft but I suspect it was. Altogether, I would also suspect the engine will be more worn than the logs indicate.
However, the -180 is a great plane, and this one looks nice. Interiors can be replaced easily and made as pretty as your budget allows. I believe that is pilot owner replacacble as well. I would buy it and start an overhaul fund in case it doesn’t make compression at the next annual. Then fly it and dont look back.
 
I can’t comment on if you should buy a -180, as for this -180:

Have they done oil analysis on the used engine oil?

My biggest concern about an O-360 would be cam corrosion when sitting long term.

Oil analysis is the best way to mitigate that’s risk, but in this market, at that price for such an in demand plane, I would probably put a deposit on it and start a pre buy even without it.

At $50k for a popular 4 seat trainer with 180hp, you will be hard pressed to find anything better (assuming it’s not hiding something). And with the market for trainers right now, you can justify puttin (almost) whatever panel you want in it, cleaning it up a bit and still have a competitively priced airplane.
 
But make sure the mechanic doing the pre by looks particularly hard for both airframe and engine corrosion before diving too far into the rest, because that would be the dealbreakers.
 
I searched for a year about for the right plane. Initially I had my heart set for a PA28R-180 (arrow i) but quickly realized that this is really a 2 seater and maybe a kid with little useful load and painful backseat room. so I revectored to arrow iii, but then the extra fuel it carries (and when do you need that i mean after 5 hours flight you wanna get out anyway so the fuel stop helps with that). the tapered wing i thought was better, flew em all, don't notice the difference. sweet spot = arrow ii. in terms of useful load, room, endurance and it is a gorgeous plane to fly. this one you had pictures for regardless of price would have been a swipe left (or right whatever the "next" direction is) :)

now that i have an arrow ii I can say from experience that this one does what I hoped to want to have it for: that $100 hamburger or seeing friends that live too far away for a drive but close enough for a flight. it is very fuel efficient also. make sure you either get or think about speed mods, you dont wanna know what it did for me! I got like 10-15 kts out of it!

I think the 180 is a good trainer with 2 people flying, but for any other purpose you want to think next but yeah the budget gets up as well.
make sure you look at one that has a decent panel.
and a reasonable engine time left.

you can pick up desired planes for lower but you'll be close to SMOH (eg 1800) you definitely want to be <1500 (= 10 years with 50 hours/year) and now that i have one you'll definitely make that number easily and this than gives you the time to save up for that MOH.

just some experiences I had over the last year shopping and the last 2 months owning...

cheers!
xander
 
I fly a 180 in a partnership.

It’s a proper feeling plane with two onboard. Easily 1000 fpm initial climb. I find that it can climb at such an angle at Vy that I have to remind myself I am not pitching up too much. Otherwise I end up in cruise climb speeds instead. This is compared to the typical flight school 172.

In the circuit, I have to throttle back a lot or I’ll run over the 150s and 172s. Luckily they added a per touch landing fee to commercially operated light aircrafts recently so you don’t see many flight schools plane in the circuit anymore. Still on a busy day it can be necessary to practice slow flight as we blew through the downwind so quickly. The plane also doesn’t like to slow down. Leading to me having to readjust initially switching over to the 180.

Ours is a avionics museum as well. There are light discussions about an update to the panel. It’s going to be a while as no one really needs it right now. I might be the most keen partner on that as I intent to get my ifr sooner than later.

As others said if it checks out, go for it.
 
Those are good pics, that’s what a proper pre buy should document.
From what I see, I recognize the spar box/spar join - it looks just like my 140, and it passed the AD. I see general surface only corrosion in spots everywhere but that seems very common and not an issue. I would guess the spar area adressed in the AD is good.
However, two areas:
1. Picture 770.jpeg - it looks like there is an area of wetness/dirt/corrosion. Its hard to say which unless you can touch/wipe it. Liquid in the wing always makes me wonder.. is it fuel or the ACF anti-corrosion spray? If its inboard of the tank, I’d pull the tank. The tank really is easy to remove, watch youtube videos to reinstall as the skin edge needs to be aligned with a card for reinstall. With the tank off, you may find a leak around the tank fuel transmitter access hole/o ring/possible sealant. That may explain the liquid, or fuel stains (if) around the skin seams.
2. One pic of wing trailing edge in front of the flap. Bubbling paint and filiform corrosion. That needs to be adressed asap! It wont heal itself and will spread. An A&P will have to offer an opinion if grind/paint or cut/replace some skin is necessary. Are there other areas around skin seams that are doing the same?
As far as the engine-how many hours has it flown since the 2019 annual? Hopefully 100 plus. That way you will see if the cylinders were broken in correctly (considering that all cylinders were re-honed/2 of 3 rings per cyl replaced) and oil burn/compression is typical for it.
I like this airplane overall.
 
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