Tailwheel endorsement

rottydaddy

rottydaddy

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My work is taking me to San Diego for about 5-6 weeks starting Monday, and I've been looking into doing some flying while I"m out there.

I contacted an outfit at Brown Muni that has an Aeronca 7AC available for $55/hr , and I'm thinking of doing a "conventional gear" checkout in that, bundling it with my BFR, which is due this month. Not carved in stone (I may not even have time), but it seems like it would be worth doing for me.
I have a little in-cruise stick time in a J3 and an RV-4, and this will be my third BFR, so I don't think I'll be either spoiling the utility of my tailwheel training with the BFR work or vice-versa (although I know takeoffs and landings in taildraggers are where things really get challenging for transitioning trike drivers, and I also know handling the new type could distract me somewhat from meeting the BFR standards).

Anyhoo, just wondering if anyone has any opinion or suggestions regarding my plan, vis-a-vis Aeroncas, combining BFRs with new-type checkouts, tailwheel training, or anything relevant to my plan.
 
It's a great idea. On a budget it makes sense to stack up tasks. Some of the things you would do in a normal check-out is contained in a BFR anyway so why not take advantage of the situation ?
 
I have a few hours in the Champ. You'll have fun. Handpropping is fun if you've never done it before.

I really like the Compleat Taildragger Pilot if you're looking for a book to read up on.
 
I think it is a great idea as stated, just "combine" some FUN with a BFR since you are going to be doing the same stuff anyway.
You might want to call them in advance and let them know your plan though. Some places may charge "differently" for training for a TW and for doing a BFR just so you don't get a surprise, since there is a ground requirement for the BFR also.

Mark B
 
smoore said:
This blows my mind. I'm going to have to search around my area for something like this!
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I was astonished, myself, esp. when I saw a picture of a champ with two wings and a prop. It might actually fly, who knows? :D

I'm assuming, for the moment, that it's wet time. Haven't asked yet. Haven't asked about the cost of tailwheel check+BFR yet vs just one or the other, either, to address Mark B's comment, but my main concern is not so much the money (kinda flush right now) as the time. Wx, from what I hear, should not hamper me much... :D
They did, however, say that combining the BFR and the checkout was "no problem".

Anyway, I'm going to delve further when I call them after settling in downtown, so as not to possibly waste a trip out there.
 
Ask them if you can land at the 'glider port' just north of Brown field. You'll either get a 'heck ya, let's do it!' Or you'll get a blank stare and, 'what glider port?'

When you finish your TW checkout, you're trike landings will be sooooooooo much better. Have fun!
 
I have a feeling this guy will know about the glider port... he's been instructing in the "Airknocker" in question for about 40 years, I am told.
Haven't met him yet, but I did go out to Brown to have a look and introduce myself, and spoke to him on the phone during that visit.
Here's a pic of my new friend: we have a date Saturday afternoon for dancing lessons. :D

$55/hr wet, BTW... and if you check out OK, it's available for solo renting.
 

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That looks like a real sweetheart of a bird and the price... geeze, that makes any airworthy bird worth some time and money.

Question: Is that a ram air generator on the bottom?
 
it looks like it kenny. probably to power a radio/transponder or something
 
No, it's a backup engine for use while taxiing. That makes this a multi-engine aircraft. Helps keep the riff-raff from renting, since you need you AMEL! :)
 
LOL- yes, it has a radio and a Mode C (SDM is under the veil)... but not much else. :D
 
dont actually need mode C since not certified with engine driven electrical, but thats awfully nice of them to run it.
 
A: Hand propping: Stand in the center of the left blade, grasp the prop with both hands about 2/3 out on the blade. fingertips just over the back edge. Weight on left foot, kick right foot forward, and swing right foot and leg back and to the right while pulling down on prop. Plant right foot about two feet back of left foot and turn right while swinging the prop blade through the bottom. Release blade, and continue walking to the right with the left foot. If the engine doesn't catch, reset and do it again.

B. Aircraft with ram generator. Use ONLY electric as required for flight. Limit XMIT time to minimum. check voltmeter often.

C. TW landing. You are not finished landing a TW airplane until:

1. Approch and touchdown.
2. Flare, kiss pavement, rollout straight
3. Slow and exit runway
4. Taxi to tiedown.
5. tie aircraft securely.
6. Drive home.
7. Sit in Barcalounger.
8. Pop a beer.
TW landing is now complete.


Update please?
 
Well, I did 1.5 in the Champ yesterday, wind was almost right down the runway, but it was interesting nonetheless. :D

The very well-seasoned instructor got me through the ground portion of the BFR while pretending to just chat about the local airspaces and flying in general, and apparently I met the flight requirements during our little trip out to Imperial Beach for maneuvers and six circuits at Brown.
He could have been harder on me with the oral review, I guess... but I frankly realized as I was boning up on the FAR/AIM before this review that I really need to peruse it a little on a regular basis. Maybe keep a copy in the bathroom. :D Just getting your nose back into the FAR/AIM is always beneficial.

70E is a lot of fun, maneuverable if quite slow, and I did OK, I think. Dropped it a couple of times (scale illusion), but my first wheel landing was sweet (dumb luck, probably).
We are scheduled to fly up to Gillespie next Saturday morning... the CFI assures me that I will have some wind to battle with there "whether you like it or not."
Looking forward to it... I was frankly worried before that first flight, but despite the huge differences between this Champ an every other plane I've flown, I feel pretty comfortable in it. I think I made real progress, and should continue to do so.

PS- Tony is right; in fact 70E has no xponder at all. Worked out fine though- as long as we talked to Tower, all was well, despite parallel runways with opposing patterns and a mix of prop and jet traffic.
 

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docmirror said:
A: Hand propping: Stand in the center of the left blade, grasp the prop with both hands about 2/3 out on the blade. fingertips just over the back edge. Weight on left foot, kick right foot forward, and swing right foot and leg back and to the right while pulling down on prop. Plant right foot about two feet back of left foot and turn right while swinging the prop blade through the bottom. Release blade, and continue walking to the right with the left foot. If the engine doesn't catch, reset and do it again.

B. Aircraft with ram generator. Use ONLY electric as required for flight. Limit XMIT time to minimum. check voltmeter often.

C. TW landing. You are not finished landing a TW airplane until:

1. Approch and touchdown.
2. Flare, kiss pavement, rollout straight
3. Slow and exit runway
4. Taxi to tiedown.
5. tie aircraft securely.
6. Drive home.
7. Sit in Barcalounger.
8. Pop a beer.
TW landing is now complete.


Update please?
Click to expand...

LOL! those 8 steps are 100% accurate. Hardest part of the lesson was trying to work tailwheel and brakes on the ground... VERY different arrangement than what I"m use to.

This plane has a small battery for the radio only... perfect for quickly getting the ATIS before startup.

I didn't get to swing the prop, and I felt bad because Bob had to try it about 100 times before it finally started. All concerned agreed it was unusual for this plane; I thought it was a bad omen, but I guess it wasn't.

Once she started, it ran strong. Still awkward working that throttle (as well as getting my hands mixed up at one point-yikes!!), and the carb heat...:no:
you could pinch a nerve working that; more than once I just used good CRM, calling for him to pull the carb heat for me. :D
 
rottydaddy said:
My work is taking me to San Diego for about 5-6 weeks starting Monday, and I've been looking into doing some flying while I"m out there.

I contacted an outfit at Brown Muni that has an Aeronca 7AC available for $55/hr , and I'm thinking of doing a "conventional gear" checkout in that, bundling it with my BFR, which is due this month. Not carved in stone (I may not even have time), but it seems like it would be worth doing for me.
I have a little in-cruise stick time in a J3 and an RV-4, and this will be my third BFR, so I don't think I'll be either spoiling the utility of my tailwheel training with the BFR work or vice-versa (although I know takeoffs and landings in taildraggers are where things really get challenging for transitioning trike drivers, and I also know handling the new type could distract me somewhat from meeting the BFR standards).

Anyhoo, just wondering if anyone has any opinion or suggestions regarding my plan, vis-a-vis Aeroncas, combining BFRs with new-type checkouts, tailwheel training, or anything relevant to my plan.
Click to expand...
Hi RottenDaddy
I did the same thing 2 years ago, had a BFR coming up and did my tailwheel training at the same time. Tailwheel training didn't seem to have any effect on my BFR. I say go for it, and Tailwheel flying will really open your eye's to a whole new world. It will also IMOP make you a better Trike driver.

Good Luck Mike
 
flykelley said:
Hi RottenDaddy
I did the same thing 2 years ago, had a BFR coming up and did my tailwheel training at the same time. Tailwheel training didn't seem to have any effect on my BFR. I say go for it, and Tailwheel flying will really open your eye's to a whole new world. It will also IMOP make you a better Trike driver.

Good Luck Mike
Click to expand...

You are right; the BFR just sort of happened during that first 1.5 hrs of unlearning trike habits. :D

Much has been made by some people about the difficulty or perils of going back and forth between types, etc... but I can't see how it can't just make you a better pilot... and certainly a more enthusiastic pilot!
Definitely a whole new world, offering stuff you just can't get flying the "usual" planes. The Champ demands you fly it pretty much constantly, but will behave well in level flight, even flying hands-off briefly if you trim it right (an operation which requires another awkward movement of the left arm, so I pretty much left it alone). The view from inside that tall cabin is outstanding, even looking inside turns (just lean forward a little), and everything is going by at a speed that lets you appreciate the view that much more.
And there's something about sitting on the centerline of the aircraft with a stick in your hand... the fairly heavy control forces... the way it responds to turbulence... so much more like "real" flying than "driving" a Cessna. I love it!! Definitely like learning to fly all over again... I can't wait until the next lesson! :D
 
docmirror said:
A: Hand propping: Stand in the center of the left blade, grasp the prop with both hands about 2/3 out on the blade. fingertips just over the back edge. Weight on left foot, kick right foot forward, and swing right foot and leg back and to the right while pulling down on prop. Plant right foot about two feet back of left foot and turn right while swinging the prop blade through the bottom. Release blade, and continue walking to the right with the left foot. If the engine doesn't catch, reset and do it again.
Click to expand...

i wasnt taught this way and dont recommend it. my main beef is the part about "fingertips just over the back edge" I was taught that you should not wrap fingers around trailing edge of prop for fear that it could cause issues pulling hand away from prop after you pull. i keep my hands flat on the front of the prop with my fingers bent slightly back. use the back of knuckles to move the prop, and it makes it really easy to pull hand away from propellor
 
So, Tony you're gonna prop a C-65, C-85 with that method? I'm okay with that, but try propping a higher compression engine with your hand on the blade and no soap my friend.

I don't know how long you've been propping planes, but I was taught in 1975, and have been doing it successfully for about + 30 years. Should you grab the blade like a pull-up bar? Heck no, just put the first knuckle of the fingers across the back edge. You can't even 'grasp' the blade fully unless you have giant mitts.

The biggest engine I've ever propped is a seven cyl radial, I don't even know the size of it. I've also propped my four hundred, seventy one cubic inch 6 cyl Continental. It fired on the third blade. I've propped 2 stroke Cayuna engines, McCulloh 2 stroke, four cyl drone engines, and plenty of small Lyc and Contis over the years. I guess you could put me down in the 'expert' column.

Never had a blade come near my fingers, never been hit, never been injured at all, and I've propped many hundreds of times. The key to the discussion is to start fairly close to the blade with your left foot, and begin moving back and to the right as you swing your right leg. Once you plant, hop to the right out of the prop arc in case it runs away.

This method can be found by a careful search of archives from pre-war aircraft operations which I frankly, don't have time to do.
 
I will not debate the techniques for handpropping here, but I will say that it's not something you should try yourself the first time after merely reading how to do it. Get with someone who really knows how to do it safely, find a plane with a small low compression engine, and do it the first few times with the mags confirmed grounded out and the aircraft securely fastened to the earth. Oh, and be standing on a surface with good foot-grip and some yield lest the concrete rise up and smack you in the head.
 
docmirror said:
So, Tony you're gonna prop a C-65, C-85 with that method?
Click to expand...

yep, thats what my experience handpropping is with. Engines that were designed to be hand propped.

you've been propping since my dad was in high school and havent lost a finger so you must be doing something right.
 
rottydaddy said:
available for $55/hr
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LOL. I got my tailwheel check out (before endorsement was required) renting a J3 for $13 an hour, wet. Needless to say, that wasn't recently.

Right or wrong, I always start the Cub (C65) from behind the propeller, for several reasons.
1. Your right hand pulls the prop and the left hand grabs the airframe at the door. That way you have something to pull against to pull you away from the prop.
2. You have easier access to the mags and throttle (and passenger, if there is one) before you pull the prop through.
3. If for some reason, the plane started rolling and wasn't tied down, it doesn't run you over, and you could still grab onto a strut if it rolled forward.

That probably won't work for a lot of other engines, but for the A65, even with high compression, it seems to work fine.
 
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dbahn said:
LOL. I got my tailwheel check out (before endorsement was required) renting a J3 for $13 an hour, wet. Needless to say, that wasn't recently.

Right or wrong, I always start the Cub (C65) from behind the propeller, for several reasons.
1. Your right hand pulls the prop and the left hand grabs the airframe at the door. That way you have something to pull against to pull you away from the prop.
2. You have easier access to the mags and throttle (and passenger, if there is one) before you pull the prop through.
3. If for some reason, the plane started rolling and wasn't tied down, it doesn't run you over, and you could still grab onto a strut if it rolled forward.

That probably won't work for a lot of other engines, but for the A65, even with high compression, it seems to work fine.
Click to expand...


That's the only safe way to do it in flight, so there must be something to starting that sort of plane from behind. :D

I certainly won't try it from either side until I can at least pull it through several times with the switch off to get the hang of "keeping all body parts inside the ride at all times".
 
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Flew again Saturday, and Sunday... got about 6 hours now.
Went to Gillespie Saturday in search of a crosswind, but there was not much wind to speak of. I did pretty well.
Learned how to prop it yesterday; it's no big deal. I just made sure to not lean forward (better to stand a bit closer than to risk moving or falling forward into the prop arc) and to end each pull with my hands behind me. It's a good workout, even with that puny engine and small prop!

We did a nice round-robin yesterday: Brown-Ramona-Fallbrook-Oceanside-Brown, with a trip through the VFR corridor in the Class B on the way home. Light winds but hot, which required some care in climbing.

Getting good feedback from my instructor, and there's a good chance I'll get to log some solo time in the Champ before I go back home next month.
 
Update: Flew another 2 hours today, and did well despite some real wind (gusting to 19 from about 40 degrees at times), and despite "getting over" a head cold.
The Champ had just come back from another flight, and I managed to get it started with one good pull (after 3 blades with the switch off).
We went up to Gillespie and Ramona again, and Bob decided I had the 3-pointer nailed. I can't argue with that, really- I made two really good ones, not lucky ones.
But the "wheel" landing is a tough nut for a pilot drilled over and over again to NEVER "fly it on" or- God forbid!- apply down elevator at touchdown... that habit, combined with the left-hand/right-hand thing, had me putting it down tail-low then hesitating that millisecond when I should have shoved the stick forward. Some interesting attempts; all very educational. :D

Talking this over back at the hangar with Bob and Ken, another guy with decades of taildragger experience (who owns a 120) I did not feel too bad about my performance... apparently, it's not often done in earnest (in 120s and Champs, at any rate), and it's not an easy technique to master. But they both agreed I didn't "get it" yet... got more work to do on that. :D

I won't get to fly with Bob again for over a week, but I will be thinking about those wheel landings every day... if I can just forget the last vestiges of my trike training, I might just pull it off next time. ;)
 
When you prop it, is the instructor inside the cockpit? I know there are all sorts of tricks for securing the airplane when you have to prop it yourself. I'm a little leery of the whole process, myself.
 
flyersfan31 said:
When you prop it, is the instructor inside the cockpit? I know there are all sorts of tricks for securing the airplane when you have to prop it yourself. I'm a little leery of the whole process, myself.
Click to expand...

Yes, so far I've only done it with him inside in the brakes. But I've been advised that if the Champ is tied down at the tail, or even just chocked, it is quite safe to hand-prop it alone, although obviously it's more complicated and requires extra vigilance... I suppose if the throttle happened to open by itself, it might move forward a bit. At idle this Champ really does not want to roll, especially if the tailwheel is cocked at all.

If and when I need to start this plane when I have it out solo, I will probably go looking for a pilot of some kind to hold the brakes for me and keep a hand near the throttle.

I was pretty leery myself of swinging that prop, having watched people hand-prop much higher-compression engines with starters, etc... still doubt I would try that, but with that little A65, set up for hand-propping, it seems quite natural. Just have to stand in the right place and pay attention to what you're doing.
Started up on the first pull last flight- that was very satisfying! :D
 
Get a 50 foot long piece of new england nylon 3/8" braid from West Marine. Turn the bitter end with a fid.

Get good at making a slipknot in which the release end (NOT the pressure bearing end) is brought into the cockpit. Loop through the tail tiedown to the fence post, lead the release end into the PIC seat. CHECK! PULL HARD on the tension bearing nylon to make SURE you didn't do it backwards.

Second safety: chock the main on the right side.

Commence idle start. Once engine is low idling, remove chock, climb in, pull the release loop while holding the brakes. Loop the line ~20 times into a hank and put it on the floor.

Ready to fly.

TWO levels of security here.
 
rottydaddy said:
If and when I need to start this plane when I have it out solo, I will probably go looking for a pilot of some kind to hold the brakes for me and keep a hand near the throttle.

I was pretty leery myself of swinging that prop, having watched people hand-prop much higher-compression engines with starters, etc... still doubt I would try that, but with that little A65, set up for hand-propping, it seems quite natural. Just have to stand in the right place and pay attention to what you're doing.
Started up on the first pull last flight- that was very satisfying! :D
Click to expand...

Sounds like you're getting the hang of it. Notice how the prop is indexed so nicely for the compression stroke?

How is the wheel landing coming? Most pilots have trouble with the wheel landing and pushing the stick forward on contact. I'll give you a hint, trim it with a bit of back pressure on the stick, then when you feel the wheels chirp, you don't have to change your muscle tension to push, just relieve a bit of the back pressure, and the tail will rise some. This should stick you to the runway unless you bounce. Remember, there's still lift in the wing, so take it easy if you bounce.
 
Some good advice there on the rope...
I'm also dubious of the merits of using chocks alone: with the throttle closed or barely cracked, a Champ isn't going anywhere, but if it somehow slipped or whatever, you may not get out of the way in time, and then of course you have to stop the plane somehow.

My wheel landings are still weak- it's the last thing we need to polish up. It's just damned hard to overcome my trike training- you can imagine how many times I was warned "DON'T fly it on!!" and "NEVER apply forward pressure on touchdown!" :D
 
rottydaddy said:
with the throttle closed or barely cracked, a Champ isn't going anywhere, but if it somehow slipped or whatever, you may not get out of the way in time,
Click to expand...
In the fall of 1969, the Detroit GADO was showing an 8mm home movie of a Cessna 120/140 (not sure which) that jumped its chocks during a handpropping with the pilot's nonpilot girlfriend inside and the pilot pulling the prop. The pilot avoided the prop and grabbed onto a wing strut, but eventually was flung across the concrete like one of those skaters when they do the spin and the partner is let go to slide across the rink -- bad case of road rash along with a busted shoulder.

and then of course you have to stop the plane somehow.
Click to expand...
In the movie, a Bonanza took care of that.[ouch]
 
Ron Levy said:
In the fall of 1969, the Detroit GADO was showing an 8mm home movie of a Cessna 120/140 (not sure which) that jumped its chocks during a handpropping with the pilot's nonpilot girlfriend inside and the pilot pulling the prop. The pilot avoided the prop and grabbed onto a wing strut, but eventually was flung across the concrete like one of those skaters when they do the spin and the partner is let go to slide across the rink -- bad case of road rash along with a busted shoulder.
Click to expand...
I think that's the clip that is in the handpropping segment of Larry Bartlett's "Taming The Taildragger" DVD. Painful to watch and it seems like it goes on forever! :(
 
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Ron Levy said:
In the fall of 1969, the Detroit GADO was showing an 8mm home movie of a Cessna 120/140 (not sure which) that jumped its chocks during a handpropping with the pilot's nonpilot girlfriend inside and the pilot pulling the prop. The pilot avoided the prop and grabbed onto a wing strut, but eventually was flung across the concrete like one of those skaters when they do the spin and the partner is let go to slide across the rink -- bad case of road rash along with a busted shoulder.

In the movie, a Bonanza took care of that.[ouch]
Click to expand...

It would have been even more "interesting" had the Cessna managed to get airborne with the (ex)girlfriend still inside.

I never rely on chocks to hold my starterless Porterfield from moving forward when propping, but they can be handy for preventing it from rolling backwards before starting if the ramp is sloped. I carry a 40 ft section from an old ski towrope (has lots of spliced in loops) and virtually always find something solid to tie the plane to when propping. Normally once I get it running, I lock the throttle closed and detach the rope from the "anchor". Then I coil it up while holding the plane back with the rope until I detach it from the plane, after which I climb in quickly. Generally unless the plane is sitting on a slope pointed downhill, it won't move itself at idle and if the situation suggests that movement is possible I at least make sure there's nothing in front of the plane to hit for a good distance.

I also generally close the fuel shutoff before starting so the plane has only a carb bowl of fuel to burn in the event that it somehow gets away from me. Of course there've been a few times when the engine ran out of fuel just as I was fastening myself into the belts because I forgot to switch the fuel back on after getting in.
 
rottydaddy said:
My wheel landings are still weak- it's the last thing we need to polish up. It's just damned hard to overcome my trike training- you can imagine how many times I was warned "DON'T fly it on!!" and "NEVER apply forward pressure on touchdown!" :D
Click to expand...

Is there a quick way to tell this non-pilot why it's bad to "fly it on" with a trike? I understand "fly it on" to mean a wheel landing in a taildragger, i.e. NOT stalling it in case I'm not correct about that.
 
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