Tailwheel Endorsement Training Begins!

[Greg Bockelman]

Assuming you don't float all the way to the fence...

I find the shortest landings are where you put the mains down exactly on the threshold and use maximum braking. Floating waiting for a three point uses a lot of runway. Plant and stomp.

If you are floating you are using the wrong airspeed or your airspeed control sucks. If you are on the right speed there is very little float on a three point landing.

And your "put the mains down exactly on the threshold and use maximum braking" is a recipe for a nose over, IMO.

 

[PittsDriver]

If you are floating you are using the wrong airspeed or your airspeed control sucks. If you are on the right speed there is very little float on a three point landing.

And your "put the mains down exactly on the threshold and use maximum braking" is a recipe for a nose over, IMO.

Couldn't have said it better Greg. If anything, a wheel landing will require you to drive it on leaving way more runway behind due to your higher speed to null out the descent rate in a more level attitude - it can't work any other way can it?

3. Then there is the power on, Tail low Wheel landing. This is typically used by the guys trying to do really short landings. The idea is to drag it in at minimum airspeed and touch down in close to or even at at the 3 point attitude. Momentarily bring the tail up and apply heavy braking, often manipulating the brakes and elevator so that the brakes are just counteracting the full up elevator.

Yeah, that sounds easy... It's pretty hard to argue that doing all that is simple, easy, or more likely to work as intended than a 3-point with no float.

 

[dmccormack]

Couldn't have said it better Greg. If anything, a wheel landing will require you to drive it on leaving way more runway behind due to your higher speed to null out the descent rate in a more level attitude - it can't work any other way can it?

That's an interetsing point I hadn't thought much about -- duh!

The tail must be close to the ground in a 3 point because we need that extreme nose up angle to maintain lift at slow speed.

The higher we put the tail, the lower the angle of attack and the faster we'd have to be going to maintain lift.

So the only way for a wheel landing to use less runway is brake, which is also available to us when 3 point.... however, maybe not as much weight is on the wheels yet?

 

[Dan Thomas]

That's an interetsing point I hadn't thought much about -- duh!

The tail must be close to the ground in a 3 point because we need that extreme nose up angle to maintain lift at slow speed.

The higher we put the tail, the lower the angle of attack and the faster we'd have to be going to maintain lift.

So the only way for a wheel landing to use less runway is brake, which is also available to us when 3 point.... however, maybe not as much weight is on the wheels yet?

The shortest landing is a wheel landing with the tailwheel just off the surface, and then the tail is raised a bunch as soon as the mains touch. This kills the lift and puts more weight on the mains for traction during the heavy braking. The elevator must be modulated along with the brakes to prevent noseover. If the airplane has flaps, these are dumped as soon as the tail is raised to kill even more lift. I have stopped the 185 in far less distance, even on grass, using this method than I ever could any other way. It will stop way shorter than the POH numbers would indicate.

"Wheel landing" should not be taken to mean "tail-high touchdown." It's simply a two-point landing that may occur at any one of a range of pitch attitudes, and the potential for bounce is there no matter what the attitude if the tailwheel isn't on simultaneously with--or even earlier--than the mains. I sometimes cheat just a little: as the mains get really close, I'll bank the airplane a bit and get one main on first. The tendency to bounce is cut by a whole bunch, since the energy is partly dissipated in rolling the airplane back to level again.

A three-point touchdown and rollout gives far less control as to touchdown point, the weight and traction are much less because of the high AoA, and in a gusty wind things can get out of hand much more quickly.

Why wouldn't a taildragger pilot want to be competent doing either type of landing? After all, he took on the taildragger to master the challenge of it; he should master all of it. Unless all he wanted was the status of being a TD pilot...


Dan

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

The sky is blue.

 

[dmccormack]

The shortest landing is a wheel landing with the tailwheel just off the surface, and then the tail is raised a bunch as soon as the mains touch. This kills the lift and puts more weight on the mains for traction during the heavy braking. The elevator must be modulated along with the brakes to prevent noseover. If the airplane has flaps, these are dumped as soon as the tail is raised to kill even more lift. I have stopped the 185 in far less distance, even on grass, using this method than I ever could any other way. It will stop way shorter than the POH numbers would indicate.

"Wheel landing" should not be taken to mean "tail-high touchdown." It's simply a two-point landing that may occur at any one of a range of pitch attitudes, and the potential for bounce is there no matter what the attitude if the tailwheel isn't on simultaneously with--or even earlier--than the mains. I sometimes cheat just a little: as the mains get really close, I'll bank the airplane a bit and get one main on first. The tendency to bounce is cut by a whole bunch, since the energy is partly dissipated in rolling the airplane back to level again.

A three-point touchdown and rollout gives far less control as to touchdown point, the weight and traction are much less because of the high AoA, and in a gusty wind things can get out of hand much more quickly.

Why wouldn't a taildragger pilot want to be competent doing either type of landing? After all, he took on the taildragger to master the challenge of it; he should master all of it. Unless all he wanted was the status of being a TD pilot...


Dan

I watched a Stearman land this way just last week. Quite frankly I thought he'd bought it as the tail came as far up as I'd ever seen an airplane come -- I didn't see dirt clods flying so there was no visible prop strike.

He was high on approach and touched down with about 500' left before the intersecting taxiway (on the grass, parallel to paved 9/27).

No doubt a 3 point would have resulted in a long float past the taxiway, down into the less than pleasant turf on the other side.

I've done wheelies in my Chief yet don't think I'll be trying the max brake thing anytime soon with my old, grabby Clevelands.

 

[PittsDriver]

Why wouldn't a taildragger pilot want to be competent doing either type of landing? After all, he took on the taildragger to master the challenge of it; he should master all of it. Unless all he wanted was the status of being a TD pilot...

Mastering it is one thing - I never said you shouldn't. Having any use for it, other than showing off (which is a perfectly reasonable thing to do ), is quite another.

 

[BillTIZ]

I find the shortest landings are where you put the mains down exactly on the threshold and use maximum braking. Floating waiting for a three point uses a lot of runway. Plant and stomp.

I know a Scout that ended up on it's back.. landing on pavement.. and the pax in the back seat had her feet on the brakes.

No I was not the pilot

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I know a Scout that ended up on it's back.. landing on pavement.. and the pax in the back seat had her feet on the brakes.

Bet it was short.

 

[BillTIZ]

Bet it was short.

very

(I tried to reply with the first scentence.. but was told it was too short.. so I will reply...)

verry

 

[BillTIZ]

2.7 tach hours today, 14 tows and 15 landings (warm up flight)
All tail draggin time

 

[Rob Schaffer]

Tuesday & Thursday sessions this week were Cancelled due to Wx.....

On the schedule for this comming Tuesday again for 2 hrs this time, so far the forcast looks promising.

 

[dmccormack]

Tuesday & Thursday sessions this week were Cancelled due to Wx.....

On the schedule for this comming Tuesday again for 2 hrs this time, so far the forcast looks promising.

Mornings?

 

[Rob Schaffer]

Yea, I start at 6 or 6:30am, great way to start the work day

The instructor also is a charter pilot, so between his other students, his charter flights, and my family, mornings work great. Plus, it's fun to see all the traffic lined up on the Turnpike near Wings Field

 

[dmccormack]

Yea, I start at 6 or 6:30am, great way to start the work day

The instructor also is a charter pilot, so between his other students, his charter flights, and my family, mornings work great. Plus, it's fun to see all the traffic lined up on the Turnpike near Wings Field

Perfect -- mornings usually let you squeeze in some time before the serious wind and weather picks up. If it's foggy in the morning, it usually means you have a nice full day ahead.

I've flown to work a few times and looked down at the poor slobs on the highway. Of course the very next day, I'm a poor slob on the highway.

Anyway -- I like mornings.

 

[Nav8tor]

... Plus, it's fun to see all the traffic lined up on the Turnpike near Wings Field

I'll wave when you fly over

 

[Rob Schaffer]

After cancellations last week, this morning’s forcast was looking great and I gathered my headset and logbook in my AOPA bag for the morning flight. Madie has been sleeping through the night for about the past week now, so I am missing my early a.m. time with her and consequently, those early morning flights too. Last time I flew the Cessna was April 12th,.. wow. So, 5:30am came this morning and I was up and getting ready for work. Lunch packed, I was out the door just before 6am and on my way to the airport with the sun rising and hardly visible through the 12000 ft overcast layer. The frontal boundary is clearly defined today above Allentown area, with a very crisp edge to the clouds and beautiful clear sky beyond.

I arrived to find my instructor had been there a few minutes already (I was on time though) and he had completed the plane’s preflight. Still, I walked around and checked what I visibly could and ensured things were in order. A few shots of primer, and the engine came to life. He sat in the back this morning with his OPEN foam cup of coffee, so I better not make him spill it. I set the radio & altimeter, then taxied us out of the spot and up the taxiway. It was a great morning to be out. Cool air, calm surface winds, and early. We both agree it is the best time to fly.

We started off the day with a review of material and 3 point landings. After the first takeoff with a little assistance, I took us west of the pattern just to do a few clearing turns and Dutch rolls to get a feel for the inputs and reacquainted with the plane. Turned us back around, and entered the pattern. The pattern was crisp, and the approaches were on center, and with a few subtle reminders from the instructor I was “Keep the Stick Back” and “Keep her straight”. 4 trips around the pattern and 4 – Three Point landings later, I was smooth and doing the take-off and landing by myself. No skips or bounces today for the 3-pointers. The sight pictures were consistent, and I was comfortable. He even mentioned that I was much more relaxed than the last time, which is the key to flying and having fun, relaxing.

So, time to introduce Wheel Landings. We discussed the attitude, airspeed and pattern preferences to setting up and making good wheel landings, then we departed down the runway to takeoff. I’m doing well on the takeoff runs and I have found that balance on the stick position and just the slightest back pressure as she wants to fly off the ground on her own. We came around and setup on downwind. Power set, Flaps added, Trim adjusted, and I was on the high side of the glideslope coming down final. This approach he was flying with me mimicking on the controls, and the attitude of the plane was just like we were about to takeoff as we crossed the numbers. Power very slowly coming back and she settles down inches at a time to kiss the runway. Then, my instructor pushes the stick forward! That felt weird! Feet dancing lightly on the rudder pedals, and the plane slowing down, the stick slowly comes back as light braking is applied. Nice, I think I can do that.

I took off and stayed in the pattern. Configured the plane and setup on final, I was feeling comfortable and the approach was much like landing in the Cessna. No rounding out and having the nose sitting high, it felt more natural to me for some reason. I had a good approach and I kept the right attitude as we decended to the runway. The wheels hit, and we skipped a little, cause I didn’t react quite fast enough with the forward pressure. He was right there on the stick though with me, and made it seem like a non-event, but it’s a tricky feeling to push forward like that. Tail slowly coming down, braking applied, and he assisted me again through the landing and off the runway. Next time around was much of the same. I flew a nice pattern and approach, even down to the wheels contacting the pavement, this time we didn’t really skip but I was just the slightest off centerline cocked right ever so slightly, and when the wheels touched to the right we went. He had the forward pressure applied on the stick and I had the rudders, and within 10 feet of center she was straight and going down the runway straight. Third time around, I had everything looking good, but was much higher on final. While plenty of runway was there, I slipped to the left to loose some altitude and try to get that sight picture back from the last approaches. Eased out of the slip, looking good, and on centerline with the nose and tail straight this time. Tap dancing lightly on the rudders, the main wheels touched and I pushed forward as soon as I heard the chirp. No skip this time, but I have to keep dancing cause the fun is just beginning! I could still feel him on the stick with some light pressure and easing me back to lower the tail slowly, but I felt I was getting the timing and feel a little bit better. Decided to make one more trip around the pattern for the day, so we taxied back.

Fourth time up and around for the Wheel Landings and things were looking good, but at the same time I could tell I was a little tenser in the shoulders compared to flying the 3-point attitudes earlier. So much to take in and learn, but I am doing well he says. By this point, the wind sock is barely waking up for the morning, we have a slight headwind developing on base leg but nothing really noted on final yet. I flew this approach a little better, but we still needed to slip it down. Out of the slip, and right on airspeed and the attitude sight-picture, everything felt good. I landed on the mains and immediately pushed forward to keep that sight line down the runway. Key was to keep looking down the runway just like during take-off and not at a point on the runway. That made it feel natural to hold that position for a few seconds as the plane slowed down and I danced on the rudders. Tail smoothly down, if not a little late this time, I was then able to turn off and head back to parking.

A good way to start the day, but what an experience. Each moment from startup to shutdown you are working and feeling the rudder, managing the momentum you have while taxing so you don’t get to fast, and having a blast while flying. It's all about attitude flying and feeling the plane fly, not as much hit this airspeed, add flaps now, etc. Next lesson will be about the same, review of 3 point landings, more wheel landings, and hopefully with a very light wind.

I am having FUN!

 

[dmccormack]

A good way to start the day, but what an experience. Each moment from startup to shutdown you are working and feeling the rudder, managing the momentum you have while taxing so you don’t get to fast, and having a blast while flying. It's all about attitude flying and feeling the plane fly, not as much hit this airspeed, add flaps now, etc.

Exactly right -- you're less a "system manager" and more a "pilot."

 

[whifferdill]

A three-point touchdown and rollout gives far less control as to touchdown point, the weight and traction are much less because of the high AoA, and in a gusty wind things can get out of hand much more quickly.

Dan, have you ever watched video of the landings at the STOL competition in Valdez, AK? Most airplanes (the ones that have a chance at winning, anyway) touch down three-point (slowest possible speed) and then raise the tail, applying maximum braking, full-aft elevator, and sometimes even power to keep from nosing over. Some touch down with their tailwheel inches past the painted line. Looks like pretty good control over the touchdown point to me. Point is, precision depends on the pilot, not the type of landing you choose to do. Of course, like almost all other Pitts drivers, I'm biased towards three-pointers. :smile: The reason why is a whole 'nuther topic...

 

[Gary]

I am having FUN!

Excellent!! Gotta hand it to you, that is early in the morning!! You're a better man than me.

Gary

 

[Rob Schaffer]

Hmmm. Last night I flew in our Cessna and I was adding info to my logbook, when I noticed that my instructor didn't put any PIC time in for me.

According to the Ed's PIC Chart, I am a PP, I am ASEL Rated, and I was the sole manipulattor of the controls for +75% of this last flight. Only time I wasn't sole manipulator, was when I could feel his light pressure on the stick when showing me wheel landings. So,.. FAR 61.51(e)(1)(i) wouild say yes, I can add some PIC time to my logbook.

BUT, 61.31, under the tailwheel endorsement section, states that "no person may act as PIC of a tailwheel airplane unless that person has received and logged flight training from an authorized instructor in a tailwheel airplane and received the endorsement in the person's logbook from and authorized instructor who found the person proficient in the operation of a tailwheel airplane."

So,.. I guess even though I am already PP Certificate Holder and if I am sole manipulator of the controls, I can't log as PIC time, until after I recieve the endorsement in the log book? I can only log as Dual training received and ASEL flight time.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

BUT, 61.31, under the tailwheel endorsement section, states that "no person may act as PIC of a tailwheel airplane unless that person has received and logged flight training from an authorized instructor in a tailwheel airplane and received the endorsement in the person's logbook from and authorized instructor who found the person proficient in the operation of a tailwheel airplane."

So,.. I guess even though I am already PP Certificate Holder and if I am sole manipulator of the controls, I can't log as PIC time, until after I recieve the endorsement in the log book? I can only log as Dual training received and ASEL flight time.

The section of 61.31 you quoted says "act as PIC" not "log PIC".

But, does anyone have good low cost source for runway light silhouette decals? You know – the ones you stick on the cowl for each light you take down… I'm thinking of buying a taildragger and may need a whole bunch of them.

 

[dmccormack]

The section of 61.31 you quoted says "act as PIC" not "log PIC".

But, does anyone have good low cost source for runway light silhouette decals? You know – the ones you stick on the cowl for each light you take down… I'm thinking of buying a taildragger and may need a whole bunch of them.

LOL!! There are such things?

Oh boy...

 

[chucky]

You can log the time as PIC, you just can't actually be PIC. 61.51 is all that matters for logging time. If there's one thing I've learned in my brief time on PoA, that's it.

 

[dmccormack]

BUT, 61.31, under the tailwheel endorsement section, states that "no person may act as PIC of a tailwheel airplane unless that person has received and logged flight training from an authorized instructor in a tailwheel airplane and received the endorsement in the person's logbook from and authorized instructor who found the person proficient in the operation of a tailwheel airplane."

So,.. I guess even though I am already PP Certificate Holder and if I am sole manipulator of the controls, I can't log as PIC time, until after I recieve the endorsement in the log book? I can only log as Dual training received and ASEL flight time.

Yeah -- it's a CFR weirdness.

If you were a student pilot, you could log away.

 

[Rob Schaffer]

The section of 61.31 you quoted says "act as PIC" not "log PIC".

Ok, so I could LOG PIC. Now, if I was safety pilot and not yet tailwheel endorsed, I can't ACT as PIC and Log the time. Gotcha.

But, does anyone have good low cost source for runway light silhouette decals? You know – the ones you stick on the cowl for each light you take down… I'm thinking of buying a taildragger and may need a whole bunch of them.

LOL,.. I thought about doing that with little blue bag stickers (sick sacks)

 

[dmccormack]

Probably wont want to fly a light taildragger today -- PIREPS to severe turbulence all over PA.

 

[Jeanie]

I've been practicing tailwheel work w/ a CFI in his Citabria in an effort to get ready to get the Decathlon. This last flight was at El Paso Intl. and we got shifted to each of the 3 runways - left patterns, right patterns - it was interesting. Also, when we were coming round to land on 26L we got shifted to 26R because of a flight of 4 F18s coming in in formation - That was very cool to watch. They did a fan break and then landed bing bing bing bing - I missed the landings because I was busy myself on the short parallel runway.
Then we went over to Horizon - a little place. It was certainly different to go from 150 foot wide runways to a 50 ft. wide one. And it has a bend in it... very strange.
Rob, the problem that I'm having w/ wheelies is the timing - push forward at the chirp and also pulling the throttle back just the right amount. I've had a tendency to pull it back too far. From the sound of what you've posted you aren't changing the throttle at all? I have certainly granted myself the opportunity to go around! What have you been using for the approach speed? 75?
Oh and the CFI requires that I verbalize: "heels on the floor" on short final or he calls a go around - Only happened once.... I remembered after that one especially because the approach was just right and I was p***ed that I had to go around. That's OK, there's been a student lately that landed w/ his feet on the brakes and the Cessna 140 nosed over
We've had some very tricky wind to work with but that's just a fact of life out here.
Glad you're having fun at it. so am I sorta............

 

[Rob Schaffer]

Well,.. here's what he has taught me.

ABEAM, power to 1500, bring in 3 notches flaps. Turn base, setup about 80 mph, add 4th notch of flaps. Full flaps (5 notches) seems to blank off the elevator so he doesn't use it, especially as airspeed drops below 70.

Turn final, high on glideslope (white over white), and don't really worry about airspeed but the pitch attitude. should be about 75mph hour though starting down final. Here is where he told me to trim nose down a little, we move the trim about 1" forward. This was a trick that seems to work well.

Round out and attain that attitude just like during takeoff before the mains leave the ground. Once in that attitude, slowly pull power back to inch the plane down while keeping level attitude. The wheels kiss the ground, and about an inch forward stick pressure or so. I'm really not touching the throttle by the time the wheels touch, as the initial decrease in setting allowed a smooth decent to the runway. Wheels kiss and sqeak, push forward slightly, and your back to tap dancing. Now throttle back more as you pull back slowly on the stick, as the airspeed is decreasing and tail wants to slowly drop.

Thats what we are doing,... seems to work. Good Luck!

 

[Jeanie]

Well,.. here's what he has taught me.

ABEAM, power to 1500, bring in 3 notches flaps. Turn base, setup about 80 mph, add 4th notch of flaps. Full flaps (5 notches) seems to blank off the elevator so he doesn't use it, especially as airspeed drops below 70.

Turn final, high on glideslope (white over white), and don't really worry about airspeed but the pitch attitude. should be about 75mph hour though starting down final. Here is where he told me to trim nose down a little, we move the trim about 1" forward. This was a trick that seems to work well.

Round out and attain that attitude just like during takeoff before the mains leave the ground. Once in that attitude, slowly pull power back to inch the plane down while keeping level attitude. The wheels kiss the ground, and about an inch forward stick pressure or so. I'm really not touching the throttle by the time the wheels touch, as the initial decrease in setting allowed a smooth decent to the runway. Wheels kiss and sqeak, push forward slightly, and your back to tap dancing. Now throttle back more as you pull back slowly on the stick, as the airspeed is decreasing and tail wants to slowly drop.

Thats what we are doing,... seems to work. Good Luck!

~~~~~~~~~ Thanks Rob. The Citabria that I'm flying w/ Bill doesn't have flaps- other than that it sounds pretty similar except for the adjustment on the throttle ....

 

[Troska]

~~~~~~~~~ Thanks Rob. The Citabria that I'm flying w/ Bill doesn't have flaps- other than that it sounds pretty similar except for the adjustment on the throttle ....

Jeanie,

The 7ECA I fly seems to like an airspeed on final around 75 for wheel landings. Slower than that my sink rate is too high and I plunk more than chirp. I'm not looking at the airspeed as I roundout, but I know I've slowed quite a bit before I touch down. I do keep a touch of throttle in until I'm rolling, then bring it back. I'm not good enough with wheelies in it to do without any throttle.

One other thing that really helped me was keeping the trim positioned such that you are holding a bit of backpressure on final. Then, as the wheels/wheel chirps - you release backpressure. It's a bit easier to do that smoothly than to push.

They are fun!

Tim

 

[dmccormack]

Jeanie,

The 7ECA I fly seems to like an airspeed on final around 75 for wheel landings. Slower than that my sink rate is too high and I plunk more than chirp. I'm not looking at the airspeed as I roundout, but I know I've slowed quite a bit before I touch down. I do keep a touch of throttle in until I'm rolling, then bring it back. I'm not good enough with wheelies in it to do without any throttle.

One other thing that really helped me was keeping the trim positioned such that you are holding a bit of backpressure on final. Then, as the wheels/wheel chirps - you release backpressure. It's a bit easier to do that smoothly than to push.

They are fun!

Tim

Wow -- 75 MPH??

That's my cruise speed!

I'm on short final at 50. 60 gives me a flat attitude and is a bit better for wheelies, but I'm still floating quite a while before touchdown.

 

[Rob Schaffer]

Jeanie,

The 7ECA I fly seems to like an airspeed on final around 75 for wheel landings. Slower than that my sink rate is too high and I plunk more than chirp. I'm not looking at the airspeed as I roundout, but I know I've slowed quite a bit before I touch down. I do keep a touch of throttle in until I'm rolling, then bring it back. I'm not good enough with wheelies in it to do without any throttle.

One other thing that really helped me was keeping the trim positioned such that you are holding a bit of backpressure on final. Then, as the wheels/wheel chirps - you release backpressure. It's a bit easier to do that smoothly than to push.

They are fun!

Tim

That's why my instructor has me add about 1" forward nose down trim. Once the pressure is gone, you are right at the balance point in the stick position and feel, and seems to be less dramatic than a evenly trimmed approach and having to push forward with resistance, which felt quite wrong to do.

 

[Jeanie]

One other thing that really helped me was keeping the trim positioned such that you are holding a bit of backpressure on final. Then, as the wheels/wheel chirps - you release backpressure. It's a bit easier to do that smoothly than to push.

~~~~~ Well, I've had it trimmed pretty much for the speed as opposed to a little forward - I'll try that next time ....
It's been the push forward pull throttle back that's been getting me somewhat. Maybe I'll try just leaving the throttle where it is till I'm rolling on the runway and then decrease it....
Thanks for the tips ya'll

 

[brcase]

<snip>I'm not good enough with wheelies in it to do without any throttle.
<snip>
Tim

Hint, the trick to doing them without power is to increase your approach speed. Adding 10mph to the approach speed will let you round out and float in the level attitude so you can set it gently on the mains, just as if you were using power.

Edit: Like this, or is this cheating
Second landing is mine, don't know what happened mine usually look more like the 1st one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BC55ikXmo5I

Brian

 

[Rob Schaffer]

Very Nice Landing!

 

[Rob Schaffer]

Friday I was able to get out during the mid-day since I had taken off to help with the Wings FlyBQ. The plan was to fly in some wind and work on 3 point landings in slight crosswind conditions. I arrived at the airport at 1pm and found wind was 260-280 @ 8, pretty steady, and we would be using runway 24. Seemed like a good introduction to x-winds in the tailwheel, so off we went to preflight after a discussion of surface positions during taxi, takeoff, and landing.

I took off the first time with wind nearly down the runway, so little input was needed to correct for the wind and we were off and into the sky quickly. I flew a nice pattern and setup for my first landing approach. Everything was looking pretty good and I had a slight right crab into the wind down final till below the tree line, where the wind seemed to fizzle out and allowed me to make a nice 3 point landing and boost my confidence,... maybe to much boost.

I taxied back to the runway and noted the windsock was more crossind than the last takeoff, and postioned myself on the runway. Rolling out, I was getting pushed left,... compensating slowly, I was on the right path for correction but not being forcefull enough, and while I slowed the leftward drift I didn't quite stop it and the CFI pressed on the right pedal more and right aileron, and we took off, but about 15+ feet left of centerline Man, I felt surprised! I flew the other week in our cessna landing 29 at KUKT, in wind 210@8G14, without hesitation or problem. My landing this time around was on par, with the feet working all the way down final as I transitioned from the right crab to a slip for the 3 point / 2 point landing. I didn't have the stick 100% held back, or I aleiviated just a little and we skipped on the right main just as it seemed both mains would be touching. Not bad, but a big difference from the landing before.

A few more times around and I was really staying on the plane and "Keeping ahead of it" by feeling postion with with rudder and holding her on centerline during the takeoff runs. Winds were little more steady at 270 @ 9 for the later half of the lesson, and I was getting more and more focused on those takeoff runs.

Landings progressed too, and they improved as I compensated with the right aileron after entering the slip from the crab, and found that if I moved the seat belt buckle off to the right side of my body rather than center, I was able to keep that stick back and have some motion side to side to work with the winds.

Quite different today, and overall I am really pleased with my progress during the lesson, but my CFI and I both agreed that the second take-off was my worst part of the flight and emphasized keeping ahead of the airplane and not letting it drift or do anything you aren't expecting. Aborting TO's and doing Go Arounds are always a better option than trying to fight my way through it and falling behind the airplane.

More to come this week.....

 

[dmccormack]

Quite different today, and overall I am really pleased with my progress during the lesson, but my CFI and I both agreed that the second take-off was my worst part of the flight and emphasized keeping ahead of the airplane and not letting it drift or do anything you aren't expecting. Aborting TO's and doing Go Arounds are always a better option than trying to fight my way through it and falling behind the airplane.

Rob, I'll be honest enough to admit that some of my takeoffs look like a squirrel tracking through leaves -- this way -- no THIS way! -- no, that way.!!!!

Anyway, it happens to all of us until the right amount of rudder pressure becomes automatic. If I have a long lay off I need to concentrate a bit more on T/o and yet I'm careening all over. If I'm flying regularly I don't think twice and I seem to track true, crosswind or no.

Of course, I'm guessing your standards are high as well, so to us "careening all over the runway" is probably a few feet drift off centerline then recovering back.

Don't sweat it -- it's part of flying these ungainly-on-the-ground type airplanes.



oh -- and if you do head for the runway lights on takeoff, just pull back a bit -- it's amazing how little airspeed these airplanes require in ground effect. Don't ask me how I know.

 

[RickH]

Rob, I'll be honest enough to admit that some of my takeoffs look like a squirrel tracking through leaves -- this way -- no THIS way! -- no, that way.!!!!

Been there, done that! I initially soloed in a Luscombe 8F back in '81, and now, nearly 30 years later am trying to relearn tailwheel technique in my Chief after 25 years of not flying anything. My first takeoff just about wound up in the tulie bushes and I actually experienced my first (and hopefully, only) groundloop during a landing at the end of my 2nd hour with the instructor. Now, a half-dozen hours later it's finally coming back together. We flew for over an hour on Saturday. We usually head off to a nearby grass strip for T&Gs and then come back home. I actually greased the last one onto the concrete which was a great morale booster! I'm beginning to feel a lot more comfortable with the ground handling, so I think it's really going to work out with a few more hours of refresher dual. I'm in no hurry...one of the advantages of age and retirement.:smile:

 

[gprellwitz]

Friday I was able to get out during the mid-day since I had taken off to help with the Wings FlyBQ. The plan was to fly in some wind and work on 3 point landings in slight crosswind conditions. I arrived at the airport at 1pm and found wind was 260-280 @ 8, pretty steady, and we would be using runway 24. Seemed like a good introduction to x-winds in the tailwheel, so off we went to preflight after a discussion of surface positions during taxi, takeoff, and landing.

I took off the first time with wind nearly down the runway, so little input was needed to correct for the wind and we were off and into the sky quickly. I flew a nice pattern and setup for my first landing approach. Everything was looking pretty good and I had a slight right crab into the wind down final till below the tree line, where the wind seemed to fizzle out and allowed me to make a nice 3 point landing and boost my confidence,... maybe to much boost.

I taxied back to the runway and noted the windsock was more crossind than the last takeoff, and postioned myself on the runway. Rolling out, I was getting pushed left,... compensating slowly, I was on the right path for correction but not being forcefull enough, and while I slowed the leftward drift I didn't quite stop it and the CFI pressed on the right pedal more and right aileron, and we took off, but about 15+ feet left of centerline Man, I felt surprised! I flew the other week in our cessna landing 29 at KUKT, in wind 210@8G14, without hesitation or problem. My landing this time around was on par, with the feet working all the way down final as I transitioned from the right crab to a slip for the 3 point / 2 point landing. I didn't have the stick 100% held back, or I aleiviated just a little and we skipped on the right main just as it seemed both mains would be touching. Not bad, but a big difference from the landing before.

A few more times around and I was really staying on the plane and "Keeping ahead of it" by feeling postion with with rudder and holding her on centerline during the takeoff runs. Winds were little more steady at 270 @ 9 for the later half of the lesson, and I was getting more and more focused on those takeoff runs.

Landings progressed too, and they improved as I compensated with the right aileron after entering the slip from the crab, and found that if I moved the seat belt buckle off to the right side of my body rather than center, I was able to keep that stick back and have some motion side to side to work with the winds.

Quite different today, and overall I am really pleased with my progress during the lesson, but my CFI and I both agreed that the second take-off was my worst part of the flight and emphasized keeping ahead of the airplane and not letting it drift or do anything you aren't expecting. Aborting TO's and doing Go Arounds are always a better option than trying to fight my way through it and falling behind the airplane.

More to come this week.....

Rob, when we followed you in, I was thinking how nice it was to have the winds so nicely aligned down the runway! Not like they were the next day, or like the 13G21 directly across the runway I faced when we arrived home after a five hour flight Sunday.