Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by WingnutWick, Oct 2, 2014.
Lots of King Airs flying drug interdiction in South America. My avionics guy outfits them.
Concerning jobs for an American outfit, they are out there still, but usually a candidate is being looked at before he even departs the military or he issomeone who is known in that circle. As for "for hire" entities other than Americans, they have their own group of contacts .
It depends who you'd like to work for and what country or region of the world you'd consider. Over in Iraq the primary contractors flying the helos were Blackwater and Dyncorp. Not sure how much demand there is for fixed wing. Plenty of South African firms if you don't mind Ebola.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
IC PILOT / SOCCER GAME S.A. AND CENTRAL IS ANYONE HOLDING OUT THEIR HAND FOR THE DRIVERS OF SURPLUS MUSTANGS/CORSAIRS? ETC. ESPECIALLY IN THE LESS FREQUENTLY TRAVELED REMOTES OF INDIAN OCEAN? THE LESS PAPERWORK THE BETTER. SEEING IS BELIEVING.
Calling them mercenaries may not be popular but that's exactly what they were in Iraq, etc. And are. They are not subject to the ucmj and fight for money . It can't be clearer than that. Blackwater was owned by the son of a big contributor to the Republican Party. He made billions off the taxpayer. When things went south, he changed the name, moved overseas. In Iraq, they were employed as Rumsfeld would not deploy enough troops. ( shenseki told him he need three times more, so rummy fired him. ) At one point there were more mercenaries there than army troops. The cia hires quite a few pilots, many having very questionable backgrounds which is apparent if you read a lot about Iran contra for instance.
No, I'd say a mercenary is taking part in offensive operations against a foe where they are getting paid regardless of affiliation. Security ops don't fall under that definition. I've flown all over Iraq and Astan and despite what rumors you may hear, they aren't engaged in offensive operations against anyone. The pilots who fly aircraft like MI-17s, S-61s, CASA 212s, DH-8s etc, etc. do re supplies and fly state department officials around. Those who fly helos and attack FW aircraft in the military are the ones who go head to head with the enemy. Look at Wiki on aircraft shoot downs from OIF/OEF and look who bore the brunt of that; RW aircraft. Specifically Army RW aircraft. There's a reason for that.
Do contractors out number military in theater? Yep. They were 60/40 when I was in Astan. Are there episodes of exaggerated use of force? Yep. Blackwater in Iraq comes to mind. There are very few cases of that during the last two wars. Security ops sometimes produce civilian casualties when you have contractors with itchy fingers.
Also, I have friends who fly for both the CIA and the FBI on both RW and FW and none of them have questionable backgrounds. If anything, they were at the pinnacle of their career field when they got out. They went from being combat vets in the Army one day and the next, getting paid big bucks as a civilian.
I'm not talking about " rumors" but rather fact as written in the many accounts of mercenaries being used in Iraq and before that during Iran contra. Military higher ups were very much against them in Iraq and called them lose cannons which they were unable to control. Lots and lots of articles written about this during and after the Iraq war. Next time there should be a draft. It would solve this type of side show. In fact if there had been a draft, in all likelihood , would not have been a war. It was totally mismanaged.
Jimmy has been there and seen it. In his own mind. LOL
Thanks for this post.
I agree, I was in 2NDFORRECON in the early 80's and my Grandfather was about 85 at the time. He had served in the French Foreign Legion in WWI and I think he could still kick my ass.
Essentially what contract pilots, aircrew and mechs do in theater:
While they boast of their tracking capabilities they really don't get into the fact that generally they're operating autonomously without the full backing of the military. Flying dual ship, heavily armed and connectivity with both air and ground, if I got shotdown I'd get picked up by chalk 2 in 5 minutes. These contractors, operating single ship, it'll be awhile before someone lifts a finger to go get them. Saw that first hand myself. I suppose that's why they get paid the big bucks.:wink2:
I'm not seeing how the contractors are doing it cheaper than the military can.
You can use them only when you need them. Basically, outsourcing the function. When demand declines, just execute the out clause in the contract. No more cost, no pensions, no benefits, no salaries.
Military manages to pull that off pretty well as well. The VA infrastructure will always exist anyway, another 1000 people served will make no great difference in cost. Ramping up and down armies is something the military is well versed at. We could use Korea and Vietnam surplus weapons to fight these fights, we have plenty of equipment of all vintages around. The military can contract these people in cheaper than sending all the money out of country to Dubai.
Most of the contractors did military service anyway, so the benefits are already applied by the taxpayer.
I'd say that generically, they can't. And that goes for all the normal support functions even stateside that the military has outsourced in the last dozen years or so. Contract aviation maintenance, contract administrative support, etc, all have serious downsides, and $$ is one of them for sure. I know some great ones, and some really bad ones too. I think one big problem is that it is essentially impossible for local military leadership to fire the bad ones. Also, I fail to see how paying someone 2-3 times as much as the equivalent military salary for said position yields any kind of savings. I can kind of see it in an operational, overseas setting, where they cover the logistics/overhead, but back home it makes no sense to me.
I've worked in logistics of one sort or another for a long time, including hauling for the military on MSC barge contracts. The U.S. Military has likely the most comprehensive and efficient logistics machine out there.
When you're talking support roles, generally the contractors do it cheaper. It's been proven by GAO that in most cases a contractor can do the job of security cheaper than state department or military personnel. While the contractor's salary is quite high, the infrastructure (benefits) supporting that soldier is extensive.
I'm mostly talking logistics and engineering projects, the big money stuff.
The only reason civilians ( mercenarys) were called into the Iraq war ( for example) is that Rumsfeld , never having been in combat, nor cheney or bush, decided to fire shinseki, ( a combat veteran of Vietnam, wounded, ) i instead of heeding his advice to send triple the number of troops that he did. The only spot he ordered defended was the ministry of oil. As a result , chaos was the Order of the day, the museums robbed, offices ransacked, the Iraqi army disbanded by Paul Bremer, leaving thousands of iraqi troops with a weapon and ammo. Many of them , today, including high ranking officers are with Isis. It's why most military historians today call it a disaster.
It's not a disaster, look at the stock market.
Again henning wants the last word. Look at the Middle East instead!
It became a disaster because it was poorly run. That had nothing to do with these mercenaries you speak of but with no evidence of existence. The looting happened because at that time we weren't an occupying force responsible for protection of Iraqi citizens and their historical sites. The allies were still on the move engaged in combat. They didn't have the time or the troops available to protect some museum in downtown Baghdad.
The only lines that get blurred from the contractor / mercenary comparison, are the ones task with security. They're everywhere and yes there were some cases of them acting like renegades but that wasn't widespread. There were some cases where security contractors overstepped their bounds but there were also plenty of cases where they were acting in self defense. Returning fire in self defense doesn't fall under the definition of mercenary as the U.S. Government defines it. Even Blackwater working with DEA in Astan wouldn't be a mercenary type mission. You could even say since Blackwater is composed of mostly US citizens that if they did take part in hostilities they still wouldn't fall under the definition of mercenary. Just depends on which definition you want to accept.
Since the thread is on aviation mercenary type jobs, it's best to stick with that. There aren't groups like the Flying Tigers operating over there. Not even contractors operating on the level like Air America did in Vietnam. Heck, you had Lindbergh and Hoover acting as "observers" who in reality were engaged in hostilities against Japan and Korea. That fits the definition far better than what pilots are doing today. The contract pilots in both OIF/OEF flew support missions. , not hired guns flying A-10s strafing Taliban. Our culture and the Laws of War are far less supportive of that kind of activity than what it used to be.
So, it's making money for the markets, that is what America is about, making money and not caring about who they **** over for it. Do you think we'd be in these wars if it wasn't profitable? Hell no. War funnels money up, that's why mankind has been at war for a long time.
I see what you did earlier: advocated for the counter argument to make your point. You should have stayed the course
Is that as true as this sea story? http://www.purpleboard.net/forums/showthread.php?t=19431&highlight=Fire+Henning&page=18 post 348
OP: There's a guy on the purple board that has really done this work, maybe check there for a real answer.
I really don't think they do. Generally speaking the contractors are getting paid considerably higher than the service members whose jobs they replaced. Plus, the waste, upselling and costs associated with frequent rework are often overlooked when trying to show cost saving through the use of contractors.
What makes it appear to be cheaper is on the retirement benefits side which nowadays consumes a HUGE percentage of the defense budget.
Problem is that the justification behind contractors being cheaper makes a huge assumption that every service member whose job was replaced by a contractor would have stayed to retirement and we know that simply isn't true. But during the Clinton era of defense cuts, shifting to contractors wherever possible briefed well as a way to maintain capability while cutting cost.
Bush/Cheney clearly made huge business for the defense contracting industry, but the seeds had already been sown well before W was elected.
Well,mince the war is for the contractors anyway, why not just let them pay themselves and do the fighting with private forces. The U.S. military should never have become involved all the way back to the World Wars.
Yea, your relatives would have liked that.
Is this what you are looking for?
TechAlabama.com is taking you on a July tour of Huntsville's Research Park, showing you some of the businesses which make up the city's robust technology sector.
The final step of our Summer in the Park tour takes us to S3 (S Cubed). This company prides itself on the number of hours its employees spend up in the air.
Just in the past five years, S3 has had its 100 trained pilots, about a fifth of the company, log more than 135,000 flight hours -- 17,000 in 2014 alone. Many of those hours are conducted through training programs, including dozens of team members currently in Saudi Arabia as a part of S3 International.
"They are training services, but it's outside of the continental United States," explains company president Jim Barclay, "They're doing work in the Middle East, providing services and training, mostly aviation."
I was hired with them and told they were just waiting on a few pilots to quit to "free up a space." Seems like their pilots don't spend much time with them. I was a month out from retirement and couldn't wait any longer so I sought employment elsewhere. Good thing I did because they laid off their IP 2 yrs later. Really didn't have the desire to go back to doing IP work anyway.
Good money working for companies like S3, Dyncorps, Greystone, etc while overseas but there's a reason for that. You're gonna be gone from home a lot.
I know this was long ago. But if you're still interested, look up a Jordanian company called Caravana Middle East. There is also a couple of Emirati companies. They do their business pretty low key, but they, among other things, supply pilots and mechanics for Libya's Mirage fighters and bombers, used against the opposition in the Libyan civil war. They have even hired civilian pilots with no jet fighter experience, so any military pilots would be ahead of the pack.
Buddy of mine flew for one of the secret 3 letter US orgs. Literally they knocked on his door as he graduated college. His military record is pretty impressive. The usual jet training aircraft, then redact, redact, redact. Service record listed name rank service branch, assigned to redact, from date x to date y redact, redact redact. Finally honorable discharged with his service rank indicated.
Actually if you are referring to his DD-214, nothing on that form gets redacted. This is a myth.
Also, many of the stolen valor types use the myth that their records "are sealed" because of all the top secret hero stuff they were supposedly doing. Fact is anyone can request the service records of anyone who served in the military and get the service member's DD-214, it's public record.
He needed the records for some special purpose, Don't know the specific type. Just had lots of missing information.
I can vouch for that.
Soldier Of Fortune brings back a bad taste. Mercenary is a very bad word.
Danny Gearhart came back from Nam with a messed up mind. Missed the excitement. Also, his wife had run up considerable debts while he was gone.
Read SOF, signed for a job in Angola, took the plane over, and the truck he rode in was captured by the locals. The 2 Brits in the truck with him were treated as war prisoners. Danny was a mercenary, a killer for hire, they tried him and executed him. His wife never received the $10,000 check, he had not reported for duty.
He was a dependable, smart, hard working young man, and I tried to talk him out of going. He gave me his early copy of Bowditch, The American Practical Navigator, I still have it, with his name in it. SOF killed a lot of naive young men.
Google Danny Gearhart, and execution. WIKI has this:
Angola had gained its independence from Portugal on 11 November 1975, but the new country was immediately immersed in a three-sided civil war. The Popular Movement for the Liberation of Angola (MPLA) was supported by the Soviet Union and Cuba, while the United States and some of its allies backed the National Liberation Front of Angola (FNLA) and the National Union for the Total Independence of Angola (UNITA).
Thirteen mercenaries fighting for the FNLA – nine British, three American and one Irish – were captured by MPLA forces by mid-February 1976. On May 26, they were indicted by the People's Revolutionary Court in Luanda.
The trial lasted from June 11 to June 16. There were five judges. The presiding judge was Ernesto Teixeira da Silva, the Attorney General of Angola. The other judges were the Director of Angolan Television, two military officers and a member of the National Council of Women in Angola. Guilty verdicts were a foregone conclusion; before the trial had even begun, Luis de Almeida, the Director of Information and Security, stated that the defendants were guilty and that the only thing that needed to be determined was how much punishment to mete out. The following sentences were passed on June 28, 1976:
Execution by firing squad:
Costas Georgiou (aka "Colonel Tony Callan"), 25 (Cyprus/UK)
Andrew Gordon McKenzie, 25 (UK)
Derek John Barker, 35 (UK)
Daniel Francis Gearhart, 34 (USA)
30 years' imprisonment:
Michael Douglas Wiseman (UK)
Kevin John Marchant (UK)
James George Butler (UK)
Gustavo Marcelo Grillo, 27 (Argentina/USA)
24 years' imprisonment:
John Lawlor (UK)
Colin Evans (UK)
Cecil Martin "Satch" Fortuin (South Africa/UK)
16 years' imprisonment:
John Nammock (Ireland)
Gary Martin Acker, 21 (United States)
Malcolm McIntyre (UK)
Some of the verdicts had been expected, especially regarding Callan; one of his fellow mercenaries described him as "a homicidal maniac, who spent a lot of time killing blacks just for fun". However, Gearhart had arrived in Angola only days before his capture; defense lawyers provided evidence he had never fired a shot, and probably had not even participated in combat. Acker, an ex-Marine, had been shot in the leg and taken prisoner in his very first taste of combat within five days after arriving in the country. British Prime Minister James Callaghan reportedly requested Angolan President Agostinho Neto to show mercy to the men.
Nevertheless, the four condemned men were executed by MPLA military police on July 10, 1976. According to British former mercenaries Chris Dempster and Dave Tomkins, only McKenzie was killed outright. Callan and Gearhart were killed by coup de grace, while Barker, who was unscathed but had apparently fainted, was shot after waking up while his 'body' was being removed on a stretcher.
The problem with the a mercenary stuff, even PMC work is that you’re on your own for the most part. I sat in our ops shed in Afghanistan and watched UAV footage of an MI-17 wreckage on the border with Pakistan. Since I was on QRF I asked our Ops O, if he wants us to mount a rescue mission. His reply was basically that they’re contractors and not part of the allied force there. If your company doesn’t have the assets to come and get you, don’t expect the military to lift a finger.
This dude is lucky he wasn’t charged with war crimes as an unlawful combatant.
I still like the movie Wild Geese.
Ahh yes, many operators here on POA....
They have no aviation wing
And their pay and pension is a joke, only a few situations would make them a viable option