SWA LaGuardia

Norman said:
Never looked at the diagram before, but their taxiway lettering system has to be the most confusing I've ever seen.
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Do they really need so many runway turnoffs?

And why 2 parallel taxiways?

Geez!

Looks like someone drew two runways then shot a shotgun at the drawing to put the taxiways in.
 
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clear_prop said:
I still fly on them if they are going my way, but don't consider them as safe as the other majors.
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Which I guess explains how, despite having far and away more flight ops every day than any other carrier, they have far and away the best safety record of any carrier (that has been around for a meaningful period). One innocent child killed in a car, in 42 years. No passengers lost, ever. One hull written off (and it could have been fixed, just not economically).

Sorry, but this same BS pops up every time someone toots out loud with a SWA aircraft, and BS is all it is. Southwest has the bar-none highest standards for pilot hiring, have the most coveted jobs, pay the best and reward excellence. It shows in their standing record of excellence.

No one touches 'em for safety. Safe operations are profitable operations.
 
SCCutler said:
Southwest has the bar-none highest standards for pilot hiring, have the most coveted jobs, pay the best and reward excellence. It shows in their standing record of excellence.

No one touches 'em for safety.
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This.
 
Well...it's official:

They did a Navy landing (ie no flare)...drove the nosewheel into the pavement:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/25/travel/southwest-laguardia/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

The unusual landing, in which investigators said the plane's nose pitched down seconds before touchdown, is the surest clue yet to explain the accident involving the Boeing 737 that injured several people.
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Suggestion being made that they were not stable in the approach:
Investigators said the pilot evidently adjusted the wing flaps less than a minute before landing,suggesting to veteran pilots who spoke with CNN that the plane may not have been on a stabilized approach as it neared the runway.....The NTSB said the flaps were set from 30 to 40 degrees about 56 seconds prior to touchdown.
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I wonder if the flaps 40 was actually selected 56 seconds before touchdown, or if it was selected earlier and 56 seconds was the point where the airspeed got below the the limitation and allowed them to fully extend (that was the case in the BUR overrun - too fast and although selected, the flaps didnt' fully extend until they were decelerating on the runway).
 
SCCutler said:
they have far and away the best safety record of any carrier (that has been around for a meaningful period).

No one touches 'em for safety. Safe operations are profitable operations.
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Safest probably depends on how you look at it. I'd say that Southwest HAD the best safety record....but nowadays, I'm not so sure.

By my count 6 accidents in the last 13 years.

1 Burbank overrun
2 x MDW overruns (2005 and 2011)
1 LGA nose gear collapse

Plus two inflight fuselage failures (W VA and AZ).

For a Major....6 in 13 years is a lot.

I fully agree with what you say Spike about SWA being considered the cream of the crop as far as pilots go, but it is tough to stay on top. The current SWA is not the Herb Kelleher SWA. If Southwest doesn't take a humble look at the last 13 years, I predict that we are going to see alot more of these in the future.
 
Is this incident at LGA considered to be an accident, or just an incident?

Part 830.2 says that damage to landing gear is just an incident. As for the injuries, did any require hospitalization for 48 hours?
 
Fearless Tower said:
Safest probably depends on how you look at it. I'd say that Southwest HAD the best safety record....but nowadays, I'm not so sure.

By my count 6 accidents in the last 13 years.

1 Burbank overrun
2 x MDW overruns (2005 and 2011)
1 LGA nose gear collapse

Plus two inflight fuselage failures (W VA and AZ).

For a Major....6 in 13 years is a lot.

I fully agree with what you say Spike about SWA being considered the cream of the crop as far as pilots go, but it is tough to stay on top. The current SWA is not the Herb Kelleher SWA. If Southwest doesn't take a humble look at the last 13 years, I predict that we are going to see alot more of these in the future.
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You said a little, you said a lot. According to my "insiders," there is an absolute emphasis on this stuff, in particular stabilized approaches.

Again, you simply cannot combine the remarkable quantity of ops they have with unsafe practices and yield their overall safe record.

clear_prop said:
BUR was a write-off. Fuselage was buckled.
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It could have been fixed, but repair was economically irrational. QANTAS repaired the 744 at Bangkok despite this factor; thy had to preserve te Rain Man myth!
 
Fearless Tower said:
Safest probably depends on how you look at it. I'd say that Southwest HAD the best safety record....but nowadays, I'm not so sure.

By my count 6 accidents in the last 13 years.

1 Burbank overrun
2 x MDW overruns (2005 and 2011)
1 LGA nose gear collapse

Plus two inflight fuselage failures (W VA and AZ).

For a Major....6 in 13 years is a lot.
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Correction - 7 in the last 13 years. I missed SWA 2066 - 2003 landing in a T-storm at Amarillo. Veered off runway and collapsed nose gear.
 
SCCutler said:
You said a little, you said a lot. According to my "insiders," there is an absolute emphasis on this stuff, in particular stabilized approaches.

Again, you simply cannot combine the remarkable quantity of ops they have with unsafe practices and yield their overall safe record.



It could have been fixed, but repair was economically irrational. QANTAS repaired the 744 at Bangkok despite this factor; thy had to preserve te Rain Man myth!
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Yeah,......... and you NEVER hear anything about how INCREDIBLY close they've come to doing this other times ! Just because the end result was okay doesn't make up for some really huge FUC7 UPS that never should have happened. Can you say FOQA ?
 
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Art VanDelay said:
Yeah,......... and you NEVER hear anything about how INCREDIBLY close they've come to doing this other times ! Just because the end result was okay doesn't make up for some really huge FUC7 UPS that never should have happened. Can you say FOQA ?
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Show me an airline that hasn't...
 
Art VanDelay said:
I do not consider SW to be on par with us.
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And that, my friend is why SWA is getting the best of ALL other domestic carriers. I avoid all other domestic airlines in favor of SWA when I have the opportunity. Even if it means making a stop vs nonstop. And I promise, there are MANY others who do the same. SWA's safety record is far and above better than any other.
 
Art VanDelay said:
No, I work for a large airline that operates different equipment types and flys internationally. I do not consider SW to be on par with us.
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By saying "not on par" with your carrier are saying that from a standpoint of SWA is an LCC versus a full service carrier?

Otherwise, your carrier and SWA both operate under 14 CFR 121, both have OpSpecs, both fly transport category aircraft, both have SOP's, both have approved training and checking programs, etc.

Would you like to discuss your carriers safety record against SWA? Are we to assume your carrier has had no accidents or incidences?
 
Perhaps he means, "my carrier has filed more bankruptcies than Southwest!"
 
SCCutler said:
Perhaps he means, "my carrier has filed more bankruptcies than Southwest!"
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ROFL! Harsh, but sooooo true.

Don't forget the post 9/11 guaranteed government loans for many of them, too. Bailouts are bailouts.
 
denverpilot said:
ROFL! Harsh, but sooooo true.

Don't forget the post 9/11 guaranteed government loans for many of them, too. Bailouts are bailouts.
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Yep.

SWA laid off exactly zero people after 9/11. When the first flight departed Love after nationwide ground stop was lifted, entirety of the H Q was at the fence along 13R/31L, cheering. They had a party for their 500th 737 delivery, Herb Kelleher was serving beer to employees. I got one, too!
 
FWIW, since we like facts....here are some tidbits from the NTSB database....

As many have pointed out....Southwest had an excellent safety record - they went 30 years before their first serious accident and 35 before their first fatal.

But, once they got the those initials out of the way, they settled pretty much in the middle/slightly better than average among other carriers.

Last 13 years, SWA has had 29 NTSB classified 'accidents' These include crashes, overruns, injuries due to turbulence/weather and ground collisions...etc).

Here is the spread....does not include regionals:

Alaska - 5
US Airways - 10
Continental - 10
Southwest - 29
United - 35
Delta - 38
American - 42
 
If measured based on cycles or other terminal ops, how do they compare?

Is a 9-hour Dallas to Eastern Europe subject to the same risk factors as 9 1-hour legs on SWA, whose schedule in many markets resembles a regional rather than a major?

Fearless Tower said:
FWIW, since we like facts....here are some tidbits from the NTSB database....

As many have pointed out....Southwest had an excellent safety record - they went 30 years before their first serious accident and 35 before their first fatal.

But, once they got the those initials out of the way, they settled pretty much in the middle/slightly better than average among other carriers.

Last 13 years, SWA has had 29 NTSB classified 'accidents' These include crashes, overruns, injuries due to turbulence/weather and ground collisions...etc).

Here is the spread....does not include regionals:

Alaska - 5
US Airways - 10
Continental - 10
Southwest - 29
United - 35
Delta - 38
American - 42
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wabower said:
If measured based on cycles or other terminal ops, how do they compare?
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Dunno, I don't have that data.

I do know this, you can divide by any number you want to make things look pretty for power point slides.

I also know that calling SWA the hands down safest airline out there is no more accurate than saying they are the most dangerous.
 
Where's the risk that should be measured for any carrier other than Air France? FDH at FL430?

Fearless Tower said:
Dunno, I don't have that data.

I do know this, you can divide by any number you want to make things look pretty for power point slides.

I also know that calling SWA the hands down safest airline out there is no more accurate than saying they are the most dangerous.
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TexasPilot71 said:
And that, my friend is why SWA is getting the best of ALL other domestic carriers. I avoid all other domestic airlines in favor of SWA when I have the opportunity. Even if it means making a stop vs nonstop. And I promise, there are MANY others who do the same. SWA's safety record is far and above better than any other.
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I prefer SWA as well. Let alone their service is far superior to the majors. I have not flown on Virgin yet but would like to give them a try.
 
JustA172 said:
I prefer SWA as well. Let alone their service is far superior to the majors. I have not flown on Virgin yet but would like to give them a try.
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SWA flight crews just seem to be happier and enjoy their jobs. That translates to a nice customer experience. I have flown Virgin America and I can tell you I really liked it. Newer airplanes and they really seem to be trying to concentrate on the customer experience. Too bad they're being sold to Delta, though. :(
 
TexasPilot71 said:
SWA flight crews just seem to be happier and enjoy their jobs. That translates to a nice customer experience. I have flown Virgin America and I can tell you I really liked it. Newer airplanes and they really seem to be trying to concentrate on the customer experience. Too bad they're being sold to Delta, though. :(
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That will defiantly be a down fall. Maybe I'll get the chance before they sell. Although I will still use Delta. I however avoid American and United like the plague. Worst service I have ever had.
 
RotorAndWing said:
By saying "not on par" with your carrier are saying that from a standpoint of SWA is an LCC versus a full service carrier?
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Correct. I tried to ride on Southwest once but since I wasn't falling down drunk or from a trailer park they refused me.
 
JustA172 said:
That will defiantly be a down fall. Maybe I'll get the chance before they sell. Although I will still use Delta. I however avoid American and United like the plague. Worst service I have ever had.
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I think Sir Richard Branson was starting to realize his little magic formula was NOT going to work in the U.S. Where the airline industry is the most regulated de-regulated industry. Selling the majority of it to Delta let's him bow-out somewhat more gracefully than have to ride it down.
 
AA has had 4 accidents that I can remember Little Rock, JFK, Columbia, and the 737 a few years ago. Doesn't matter who's name is on the tail, it can happen to anyone. I don't worry about the safety factor of one US carrier over another.
 
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