Surface winds: how much is too much?

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ScottVal

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Scott
Hello-
I have about 200 hours and have gotten pretty comfy with a fair amount of surface wind, say around 12 kts gusting to 18. But I'm afraid I might push that envelope too far and get myself into trouble. I realize it's a complicated question, with a lot of "it depends..." kind of answers. I've been flying an Archer II. Obviously, whether the wind is straight down the runway or a cross-wind is also a major factor. At some point it's just too windy even if the wind is straight down the runway. I also realize it has to do with the ability of the pilot and taxiing techniques. But how much is too much? What kind of winds are you comfy with?

-Scott
 
As you've alluded to, there is no simple answer. It's going to be different based on your skill level and experience in a particular make and model. Even when you get very comfortable, you eventually find the limits for a particular aircraft. One of our trainers is a Jabiru. Our rwy 18/36 is being renovated so we are stuck with our 10/28 parallels and a lot of x-wind landings lately. I've learned a 21 kt direct xwind is pretty much the limit on the Jabiru, as full control inputs can't keep her straight.
 
Since I fly for fun and don't like getting bounced around, I generally avoid anything worse than 15 steady or gusts highers than 20. I can get away with that here in the Boston area. In other parts of the country, my personal limits would keep me grounded a bit more.
 
One trick with strong crosswinds and no other options is to land at an angle across the runway.

I actually had to do this at Moriarty, NM, in my Light Sport Sky Arrow with a strong and gusty NW wind.

Kinda like this:

8434497277_61534ce6fc_z.jpg


It really does help reduce the crosswind component.

There's no law that says you have to land on a runway, but if you chose a taxiway and came to grief, you might have some 'splainin' to do.

In any case, a fellow there said when the winds were howling from the northwest, they just landed thusly:

8435592310_f7d9d426bf_c.jpg


And good news - a N/S runway was under construction, as seen in the photos.
 
If it is straight down the runway, I have done low 20's gusting to high 20's. It is bumpy and not fun, though.
 
FastEddieB said:
...in my Light Sport Sky Arrow...
Click to expand...

You fly a Sky Arrow too! I rent one from time to time and absolutely love it. For low and slow putting around looking at the spectacular views over MD's Eastern Shore, you can't beat it! I'm not sure how the views are out where you are, but it's a great plane regardless :).
 
I came back from our vacation home in SC [left a 65F degree day on January 2, 2009] and landed in crystal clear but snow covered ground on runway 27. Winds were 32021G28. only about 14kt component - could not land on 36 because it had not plowed yet - and the snow was causing huge drifts and similar across 27 - it looked like a scene from a the Arctic tundra - plus it 25F - it was a miserable day.

I was going to take a crack at it once - and see how it worked out and then divert to BDL 30nm away which had runway 33 and the wind right down it. . .

Approach was normal speed, plus 5 for half the gust. I landed it at about a 300 heading on the right side of the runway, upwind wheel first - and kept the nose and downwind wheel off and pointed into the wind while I was slowing down - got it down - and by then had been blown to the centerline and was both full correction into the wind and differential braking and still slid a little bit toward the other side - but I timed it pretty good and by the time it looked like we were about to get pushed off a taxiway appeared and IU just let the airplane go off = it all worked out. The WORST part was getting out - even with the hangar providing a wind screen it was miserably cold.
 
jpower said:
You fly a Sky Arrow too!I'm not sure how the views are out where you are, but it's a great plane regardless :).
Click to expand...

We get nice views here in the foothills of the Appalachians, but last summer flying to Page, AZ for a CT Fly-In was quite spectacular!

8138344844_46a7cca49a_o.jpg


8103750428_4aa563bc09_c.jpg


Back on point - I constantly have to remind myself that winds and gusts affect me far more now than they did in my prior ride - a Cirrus.
 
I've gone up in cross winds far exceeding the planes cross wind component. Doesnt really bother me as long as

1 I have enough fuel to go elsewhere if needed
2 There is somewhere else to go well within my range

So if I don't HAVE to land and have plenty of time to play, I'm not really concerned, after a few tries if it's no luck (which hasn't occured yet) I can always take my business else where.
 
My Tampico has a 25 knot DEMONSTRATED crosswind component rating. Someone, with a lot more experience than me, flew that airframe in a crosswind with a 25 knot direct crosswind component.
I don't get anywhere near that, mostly because the conditions never seem to exist when I am flying. I have never had a problem landing the Tampico in any crosswind I have run into. It just makes me swing back and forth while coming in.
I don't like strong gusts coming down the runway. You get a strong gust while trying to land, you get suckered into yanking the power to get your decent rate back, then the gust stops and suddenly it feels like the bottom drops out from under you. If you don't handle it right you end up doing a carrier landing and slamming into the deck.

Jim
 
With strong winds down the runway, landing may not be your problem... taxiing can become the hard part. 'Landed in Twin Falls once, 28G38 down the runway. In a CTsw light sport. Taxiing went smoothly, but the wrong gust could have changed things.
 
ScottVal said:
Hello-
I have about 200 hours and have gotten pretty comfy with a fair amount of surface wind, say around 12 kts gusting to 18. But I'm afraid I might push that envelope too far and get myself into trouble. I realize it's a complicated question, with a lot of "it depends..." kind of answers. I've been flying an Archer II. Obviously, whether the wind is straight down the runway or a cross-wind is also a major factor. At some point it's just too windy even if the wind is straight down the runway. I also realize it has to do with the ability of the pilot and taxiing techniques. But how much is too much? What kind of winds are you comfy with?

-Scott
Click to expand...

Predictably, folks will chime in on flying in the middle of typhoons, while others won't touch the plane if the windsock is anything other than completely limp. The answer to your question is a simple formula though:

Too much wind = actual wind > wind you feel comfortable with

There are many factors in determining what's acceptable...

1) The airplane itself- approach speeds, wing loading, rudder effectiveness
2) Familiarity with the airplane- are you new to the plane?
3) Total flying experience- only fly heavies? New to flying?
4) Topography surrounding the airport- flat farmland or rolling hills or mountains?
5) What surrounds the immediate runway- is there a large runway safety area? Close in obstructions? A swath of clearing in the trees?
6) Length and width of the runway- bigger is generally better for x-winds
7) Type of runway surface- paved versus turf
8) Nature of the winds- Gusty? How frequent are the gusts? How much is the gust factor? What weather phenomena is generating the winds? Windshear? Updrafts or downdrafts?
9) The condition of the pilot- fatigued? Recent x-wind practice?

Go out and figure out what is comfortable to you. Continuously practice and expand your zone of comfort. Get some time with a CFI on a windy day and practice.
 
Do what you feel is comfortable. If you're comfortable only with 12-15 knots, then don't fly in more until you feel sure you're comfortable at that upper limit, and then try maybe 18 knots. Expand your envelope until you no longer feel comfortable expanding it.
 
Good question. I am also around 200 hrs... I chickened out over the weekend because it was 200 @ 10 gust 27. It was very gusty too, not just a bad reading by the weather station. I would have taken the 182 I rent but I felt it was too much in the 150 for a fun flight.

Going to fly with my CFI on the next really windy day so I can push the envelope while staying safe.
 
Kiddo's Driver said:
My Tampico has a 25 knot DEMONSTRATED crosswind component rating. Someone, with a lot more experience than me, flew that airframe in a crosswind with a 25 knot direct crosswind component.
I don't get anywhere near that, mostly because the conditions never seem to exist when I am flying. I have never had a problem landing the Tampico in any crosswind I have run into. It just makes me swing back and forth while coming in.
I don't like strong gusts coming down the runway. You get a strong gust while trying to land, you get suckered into yanking the power to get your decent rate back, then the gust stops and suddenly it feels like the bottom drops out from under you. If you don't handle it right you end up doing a carrier landing and slamming into the deck.

Jim
Click to expand...

I have found the Tampico handles crosswinds really well.
Someone explained to me since the Vertical stab is farther forward, wind is less effective at making it weathervane because it is closer to the fulcrum so to speak. Not sure if that is true but I have been very pleased with how well the X-wind landings are in the Tampico versus the 172.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I have found the Tampico handles crosswinds really well.
Someone explained to me since the Vertical stab is farther forward, wind is less effective at making it weathervane because it is closer to the fulcrum so to speak. Not sure if that is true but I have been very pleased with how well the X-wind landings are in the Tampico versus the 172.
Click to expand...

I think it is simply because it has a HUGE rudder. It can compensate for quite a bit of crosswind. The fact that it has high wing loading makes for a stable ride in rough air. It is built for comfort, not for speed.

Jim
 
FastEddieB said:
One trick with strong crosswinds and no other options is to land at an angle across the runway.

I actually had to do this at Moriarty, NM, in my Light Sport Sky Arrow with a strong and gusty NW wind.

Kinda like this:

8434497277_61534ce6fc_z.jpg


It really does help reduce the crosswind component.

There's no law that says you have to land on a runway, but if you chose a taxiway and came to grief, you might have some 'splainin' to do.

In any case, a fellow there said when the winds were howling from the northwest, they just landed thusly:

8435592310_f7d9d426bf_c.jpg


And good news - a N/S runway was under construction, as seen in the photos.
Click to expand...
It's been operational for a few months.
 
FastEddieB said:
We get nice views here in the foothills of the Appalachians, but last summer flying to Page, AZ for a CT Fly-In was quite spectacular!

8138344844_46a7cca49a_o.jpg


8103750428_4aa563bc09_c.jpg


Back on point - I constantly have to remind myself that winds and gusts affect me far more now than they did in my prior ride - a Cirrus.
Click to expand...
Looks like a fun little airplane you have there!
 
ScottVal said:
Hello-
I have about 200 hours and have gotten pretty comfy with a fair amount of surface wind, say around 12 kts gusting to 18. But I'm afraid I might push that envelope too far and get myself into trouble. I realize it's a complicated question, with a lot of "it depends..." kind of answers. I've been flying an Archer II. Obviously, whether the wind is straight down the runway or a cross-wind is also a major factor. At some point it's just too windy even if the wind is straight down the runway. I also realize it has to do with the ability of the pilot and taxiing techniques. But how much is too much? What kind of winds are you comfy with?

-Scott
Click to expand...

I've taken off in 25G35 straight down the runway. The taxi out was the most uncomfortable part. With the STOL kit, the aircraft was almost at liftoff speed for flap 30 (I used 20) sitting still at the end of the runway.

I think having done it, I'd pass on doing it again. It never felt like the aircraft was going to tip or lift a wingtip with proper control inputs but it was rocking uncomfortably. Since I fly for fun, creating stressful situations isn't very smart.

It was a freak wind gust event at KAEG during a long XC. We had fueled in 10G12 or so and it went way up above the forecast and my comfort level right about the time we went to depart.

I'm sure pros have to do it. I'm sure it can be done relatively safely. I'm just not a big fan having done it. ;)
 
Landed a CRJ-700 in Lubbock in westerly winds 32-42, but they were right down runway 26. After we parked at the gate, (fortunately, into the wind) the wind piped up briefly to 62kts. From the cockpit it sounded like we were flying around at 250kts...with the jet bridge connected! Most wind I ever saw, save the occasional TV hurricane.
In light airplanes, I consider any wind over 20kts something I should pay attention to...not so much because taking off or landing is a problem (in most airplanes) but taxiing can be near impossible. Winds over 30 I draw the line unless I'm really current in the kind of airplane, and I have a darn good reason to go flying. Too much work to be fun. BUT, there are some airplanes that are way too tender to be safe in much wind. For instance, I gave some dual in a Rotax powered Kitfox and quickly concluded anything more than about 8kts X-wind and 10-12kts total would be very high risk.
 
My own personal comfort wind meter would look like this......green= 15-20knots
yellow 20-25 and yowza !! its red= 30 knots ..............

At 30 knots crosswind you're into the airliner area.......and some airliners won't take much more than 30knots direct xwind per the book........

I've been lucky here in SoCal and really haven't had anything close to 20kts so far, but I am a fairly chicken fair weather guy.

Love that Sky Arrow also...........have only seen one on the ramp but that is one nifty design............
 
Does the Sky Arrow have any weird pitch behaviors when adding or removing power with the fan blowing right on the elevator? Just curious.
 
denverpilot said:
Does the Sky Arrow have any weird pitch behaviors when adding or removing power with the fan blowing right on the elevator? Just curious.
Click to expand...

Nothing weird--it flies pretty much like any other plane. The one thing that I found bizarre was that little to no right rudder is needed on takeoff. It also has fingertip brakes, but those were super easy to get used to.
 
What are you flying?! Flying a bonanza in 25 knots is not like flying a super cub, or taylorcraft in same conditions. Many many variables! Try landing a Stearman in 20 knot winds, not even direct cross winds. Very dicey. Then there's the hitting of the head on ceiling syndrome. Do you LIKE getting beat up in an airplane, hitting your head, things flying around the cockpit? Not me! Once again, common sense should intervene. But.....if you must, go alone so you only do yourself in.
 
denverpilot said:
Does the Sky Arrow have any weird pitch behaviors when adding or removing power with the fan blowing right on the elevator? Just curious.
Click to expand...

The short answer is "no".

In a recent discussion on left-turning tendencies, I commented that since my plane has a conventional ROTAX mounted backwards, if anything all the left-turning tendencies should be reversed.

I don't know whether it's p-factor being diminished by the thrust line being above the fuselage, or less leverage because the twisting forces are so close to the cg, but I notice no turning tendencies at all with power application or in climbs.

As far a pitch goes, full power should cause a nose-down moment, but in practice it's not noticeable.

A couple of video links later...
 
im comfortable in the 20's and even30's if they are down the runway. though it will be a very bumpy ride down. for x winds i like to keep it around 7 to 10
 
Here's a link to a video of me landing my Sky Arrow, as I experimented with camera (GoPro Hero3 locations:

http://youtu.be/dhauE4oUeE0

The wide angle makes approaches seem far flatter/lower than they really are, and the offset camera likely makes it look like the plane itself is offset, when its not.

In any case, from there if you're interested I have a few others as I played around with different camera locations.
 
I've departed in a PA-31 as much as 38G49. Not much fun, but it was right down the runway. The turbulence when airborne was a bigger concern.
 
The more you fly the more the wind numbers of the atis start to sound like the adults on Charlie Brown.
 
If the cross wind component exceeds the demonstrated cross-wind speed of that aircraft (Most Cessna's are 15knts) it does not mean that you cannot fly... It just means that who ever test flew that aircraft back in it's research stage, decided that he/she was comfortable at that speed. Now what I was taught is if full aileron deflection cannot keep the wing down, you've exceeded the aircraft's maximum cross wind component. If airborne and the cross wind is too strong and or you are not comfortable with it, go to another airport with a runway that is directly into the wind!

Another note, at an uncontrolled field, you don't have to land on the runway, you can land on a taxiway/ramp... but this is at your discresion and judgement!!!
 
FastEddieB said:
Here's a link to a video of me landing my Sky Arrow, as I experimented with camera (GoPro Hero3 locations:

http://youtu.be/dhauE4oUeE0

The wide angle makes approaches seem far flatter/lower than they really are, and the offset camera likely makes it look like the plane itself is offset, when its not.

In any case, from there if you're interested I have a few others as I played around with different camera locations.
Click to expand...

Sorry about the side thread but she looks like a sweetheart to fly. Nice chirps from the mains on both of those landings. ;)

I'd never seen one until this thread. Always fun to find a new type to Google and read up on. I really like the forward position in front of the high wing. Very "gliderish".

I got a chuckle out of the way the gravel sounded on the last landing. Sounded like you had golf applause after salvaging the too-high approach. Heh heh. Clap clap clap. It's just the way the mic picked up the rollout but it made me chuckle.
 
denverpilot said:
I got a chuckle out of the way the gravel sounded on the last landing. Sounded like you had golf applause after salvaging the too-high approach. Heh heh. Clap clap clap. It's just the way the mic picked up the rollout but it made me chuckle.
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Cute - I had not noticed that. Not gravel, but some artifact.

Or maybe just applause!

In any case I'm pretty much retired and if you or anyone else finds themselves anywhere nearby (based at Copperhill, TN [1A3]), I'd love to swap rides some day!
 
When you can't taxi without the plane being dragged sideways/weathervaning, that is too much.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
When you can't taxi without the plane being dragged sideways/weathervaning, that is too much.

Bob Gardner
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In the Flybaby you just drag a brake until they get too hot to work anymore, then the airplane weathervanes into the wind, then you just sit there and wait for the brakes to cool before you continue the taxi.
 
Back at the old rehobeth beach airport in delaware I had one hell of a time landing the Stearman due to wind gusts and trees. On the third try I got it down, taxied to the tie down , got out and an elderly gent walked over and said " nice work". We conversed. He had taken navy training in 1942 at Great Lakes. He explained his Stearman training landings were ALWAYS into the wind. There was a huge circle with a large windsock in the middle and the student simply watched the sock on landing. Big difference! It's now a shopping center. This was 1985 .
 
Jimmy cooper said:
What are you flying?! Flying a bonanza in 25 knots is not like flying a super cub, or taylorcraft in same conditions. Many many variables! Try landing a Stearman in 20 knot winds, not even direct cross winds. Very dicey. Then there's the hitting of the head on ceiling syndrome. Do you LIKE getting beat up in an airplane, hitting your head, things flying around the cockpit? Not me! Once again, common sense should intervene. But.....if you must, go alone so you only do yourself in.
Click to expand...

You must be tall to hit your head in a Stearman:lol:
 
I would take a post solo student up in strong winds and ask Long Beach tower if I could use 16/34 to get them confident to fly in strong winds. Maybe a quick hour with a CFI in strong wings will increase your confidence.

FWIW, my airline instructors love to crank up the wind in the simulator when we go in for landings for the very same reason.
 
Being from Kansas, if you set your limits to low, you may not do much flying. As a low time pilot, about 20 direct crosswind is nearing my limit. Last time I flew in some heavy winds that were gusting to 38kts, it was down the runway at the surface, but there was some nasty shear getting to the surface. Seeing the airspeed drop 30kts will get your attention in a hurry!

Based on advice I am not sure where I got, I was using less than full flaps for gusty and strong crosswinds. My ifr instructor likes full flaps always with one exception. Sometimes with a 30+ crosswind full flaps slows it down to the point that there is not enough rudder to straighten it out.

Jim
 
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