Sunset of the Seminole ATP

NJP_MAN

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Shawn
Its finally over. The ATP pilot who knows absolute nothing about flying planes that are transport aircraft is no more. I'm not saying everyone who took the ATP ride in the Seminole knew nothing. I'm just saying it was possible.

I think the new rule should have only applied to those pilots seeking ATP not in conjunction with a new type rating. The training for initial ATP/type rating could add a sim or 2 and call it a good compromise. Why go through sim training to take a written before you go through sim training? I'll never understand that.
 
Because an initial type rating doesn't teach everything you should know about turbine airplanes...it applies what you hopefully already know to the specific type.

Hopefully we'll start seeing type/ATP applicants a little better prepared for general ops. Whether the CTP course will do that or not is anybody's guess, though.
 
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Because an initial type rating doesn't teach everything you should know about turbine airplanes...it applies what you hopefully already know to the specific type.

Hopefully we'll start seeing type/ATP applicants a little better prepared for general ops. Whether the CTP course will do that or not is anybody's guess, though.

That's why I think it could be added as an extra few sim sessions on the initial ATP during the type training. I didn't do CTP sim training so I don't know how much is really involved. There may be some overlap in the two training events is what I'm thinking.
 
Because an initial type rating doesn't teach everything you should know about turbine airplanes...it applies what you hopefully already know to the specific type.

Hopefully we'll start seeing type/ATP applicants a little better prepared for general ops. Whether the CTP course will do that or not is anybody's guess, though.

You should be moving into a turbine around 1000tt

Not really sure what real world super knowledge you think you're getting with the new CTP stuff.

If you're building your 1500 up right, you should be ready to wear that ATP hat when you hit the magic numbers.
 
I'd say the non-sim part is probably more valuable...
(a) Academic training. The applicant for the knowledge test must receive at least 30 hours of classroom instruction that includes the following:

  • (1) At least 8 hours of instruction on aerodynamics including high altitude operations;
    (2) At least 2 hours of instruction on meteorology, including adverse weather phenomena and weather detection systems; and
    (3) At least 14 hours of instruction on air carrier operations, including the following areas:


    • (i) Physiology;
      (ii) Communications;

      (iii) Checklist philosophy;

      (iv) Operational control;

      (v) Minimum equipment list/configuration deviation list;

      (vi) Ground operations;

      (vii) Turbine engines;

      (viii) Transport category aircraft performance;

      (ix) Automation, navigation, and flight path warning systems.

    (4) At least 6 hours of instruction on leadership, professional development, crew resource management, and safety culture.
 
Its finally over. The ATP pilot who knows absolute nothing about flying planes that are transport aircraft is no more. I'm not saying everyone who took the ATP ride in the Seminole knew nothing. I'm just saying it was possible.

I think the new rule should have only applied to those pilots seeking ATP not in conjunction with a new type rating. The training for initial ATP/type rating could add a sim or 2 and call it a good compromise. Why go through sim training to take a written before you go through sim training? I'll never understand that.

I'll get to the bolded later.

First, I think you're conflating issues here. Issue #1 is the perceived validity of the ATP license when the requirement was 1500 hours of time that by the very nature and time progression of the applicant, is historically accomplished in non-airline operations (unless you fell under the years of 250 hr CPL-holding regional newhires of mid-late 2000s) and generally underpowered piston equipment. Issue #2 otoh, was the *new* cost associated with the license in order to go beg for an airline job and how that affects the supply of pilots in an environment of increasing hiring and baby boomer attrition.

The only thing Aug 1 2016 brings is the end of non-type-rating associated initial ATP by virtue of cost. Ergo, the madness about the Seminole in the last two years only deals with issue #2. This is because people of my demographic, aka military pilots flying airplanes for which there is no civilian operator (thence no availability of civilian type rating mil-comping) are still going to have to play the semenhole BS game on top of now having to shell out CTP money to even qualify to take a written. The regionals OTOH, quickly adapted and incorporated the CTP training into their type rating initial training, being extremely adamant they are TWO separate phases of training (that's the part where they bend the new law) effectively netting the regional booger-pickin' new guys the same cost out the door as they would before the new rules. The answer to the bolded part is precisely that move on the part of the regionals. More on that in a second.

As to issue #1, I 100% agree with you. It's a joke of a license. I'm a civ/mil hybrid, in that I was a civilian with CPL-SEL IR, CFI-SEL and CFII before I set foot in the military. I got my CPL-MEL as a mil-comp due to military equipment, and it was also my experience in the military that qualified me to do the ATP-MEL practical in the "Semenhole". I never did the CPL-MEL in part 61, but I came to quickly realize that the ATP ride is nothing more than a carbon copy of the CPL-MEL initial ride sans the Vmc demo (unless you were centerline restricted as a CPL-MEL). So we know it's kabuki, it's redundant. I can't speak for the part 135 and part 91 turbine operators building their time in their respective ways, but at least from my perspective as a military guy, they should have just mil-comp'd the thing. It's stupid and it taught me nothing about airline procedures. I had more total flight experience and oceanic time than the regional aspiring 23 year old instructor collecting flight time in the right seat watching me self-instruct myself into the checkride. And he was gonna get his ATP paid for by the regional, never to attempt it, let alone pay for it, in the manner I had to as a mil applicant. The whole thing is an obvious regulatory CYA. IOW, issue #1 is NOT being solved by the emergence of the CTP requirement. The Seminoles are not going anywhere in that regard.

As to the bolded. The reason it doesn't make sense to you is because the intent of the ruling was unapologetically subverted by the regional industry. Of course it makes no sense to make cat-C supra-40K MGTOW aircraft sims a requirement to take a written test whose contents do not match nor coincide with the material tested on said written. So why do it, you ask? Because the point of it was to respond to the accusation that the industry had a two-tier system of training and therefore safety, in the conduct of regional crew training when compared to mainline. Aka The Sully Congressional Hearing. You have to remember, when those two zealots got way over their heads and killed those innocent people in Buffalo,the regionals basically were being accused of running a pencil-whipping training operation due to the need to put butts in seats. The PBS documentary "Flying Cheap" made the case pretty clear as it pertained to Colgan's training department, which was an unapologetic sh-tshow.

As a result, Congress made it specific that the CTP training COULD NOT be part of a regional airline's initial training, therefore they tied it to the written to fence it out. Never in a million years did Congress expect that the regionals would crowd out the CTP vendors and essentially incorporate it into initial training backdoor-style, effectively re-opening the pipe to the young kids willing to fly jets for peanuts and hot bunks on reserve. Reference the young men on this board yapping about doing CTP and cramming Sheppard air material in the middle of regional training like they're in freshman year chemistry, for a test that had nothing to do with what they did during CTP, just to be sent to another facility to start "real training" on the barbie jet. All paid for by the same employer. That's not what Congress intended to happen. But yet here we are.

You will see a lot of fly by night seminole operators crawl back to the sewers where they came from. The military bulge dies with the old written, as most guys in my position will just get a 737 type rating in conjunction with the CTP sim sessions and written, since they have the GI bill. The point of the Seminole was that I could get out the door for less than 5AMU. But if you have to pay another 5AMU before the seminole, then at that point the type rating route cost is no longer as onerous and offers higher pass rates, as you're taking a checkride in an air conditioned simulator for Christ sake. Everybody would take a check in a sim versus a real airplane. It's no contest at that point.

The other alternative is to go take a regional job to get a free ATP out of it. Considering the salaries some of us pro pilots make in part 91K, 135 turbine or the military, as applicants with turbine currency, the pay cut doesn't justify the free ATP so we have to eat it. In reality what needs to happen is mainline needs to start paying for ATPs again. They did it before. But of course that would imply there's a pilot shortage, which there isn't. So they won't pay for it. Not yet anyways.

Sorry for the rant. But it needs to be said.
 
I do think there is a place for the CTP. Maybe for the guys that are getting an ATP to fly scheduled 135 in a piston twin and have never demonstrated knowledge in a turbine. But I dont think ATP should really be necessary for anything less than Transport category. I dislike the insurance companies need for an ATP to fly a CE525. This may start to become an issue for guys that are looking to skip the regionals that need to cover their own CTP costs now they can't just show up with the written. But I do agree with your progression time line.
 
I'd say the non-sim part is probably more valuable...
I did the CTP course in April. The ground was good because it was kind of like pre ground school ground school for me. I hadn't flown anything faster than a 172 so it was a nice intro to what I was going to do in my airline's ground school.
 
Sorry for the rant. But it needs to be said.
I never had a problem with the MIL Seminole ATPs. I think those guys have a pretty good idea how to fly compared to the 1500 hr instructor at the flight school that tacked on an easy ATP. With the regionals paying for the CTP and getting hired is easy, it's a little hard to remeber the times before when you got an ATP before hand and had to keep applying to get in at the regionals. I'm a newer pilot but I do recall some of my instructors going this route so they were more competitive at the regional level. Your rant was long, your rant was also spot on.
 
I do think there is a place for the CTP. Maybe for the guys that are getting an ATP to fly scheduled 135 in a piston twin and have never demonstrated knowledge in a turbine.
Probably the last people who need it...why demonstrate turbine knowledge when you're going to be flying a piston?
But I dont think ATP should really be necessary for anything less than Transport category. I dislike the insurance companies need for an ATP to fly a CE525.
these are probably some of the people for whom the CTP course could do the most good. A jet is a jet, regardless of what regs it was certificated under.
 
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Yea they had priority. I took the CTP course so I'm good for 5 years (I think)
It's hard to believe that you're still grinding through the training process. Its a great time to be a pilot when they have more trainees than time to train them.
 
Probably the last people who need it...why demonstrate turbine knowledge when you're going to be flying a piston?

these are probably some of the people for whom the CTP course could do the most good. A jet is a jet, regardless of what regs it was certificates under.
These 2 scenarios show the downfall of what the ATP is. A Cape Air captain needs the same certificate as a CE525 pilot (insurance req.) and an A380 captain. Its just a little too broad IMO.

The CE525 pilot gets the same training weather he's training for the ATP or not. Having ATP is only a matter of 1500 hrs and now a CTP. When I got an ATP it was no different than those getting the type rating who were ATPs except I had to do my oral alone and not with my sim partner.
 
It's hard to believe that you're still grinding through the training process. Its a great time to be a pilot when they have more trainees than time to train them.
Yea my case is not the norm at at all but at least I'm gaining seniority and making my monthly minimum with very little work so it's not too bad. Our goal is 60 a month.
 
These 2 scenarios show the downfall of what the ATP is. A Cape Air captain needs the same certificate as a CE525 pilot (insurance req.) and an A380 captain. Its just a little too broad IMO.
Heck, it gets even more ridiculous...I got my ATP-SE so I could fly as captain on a King Air.

When things have to be regulated, I'd certainly rather deal with a broad brush than a fine one. At least this way the Cape Air captain doesn't need 3 more levels of ATP certification before he gets to the left seat of an A380.

The CE525 pilot gets the same training weather he's training for the ATP or not. Having ATP is only a matter of 1500 hrs and now a CTP. When I got an ATP it was no different than those getting the type rating who were ATPs except I had to do my oral alone and not with my sim partner.
That's what the CTP course is supposed to do...provide the additional general turbine training that's not part of specific type training.
 
That's what the CTP course is supposed to do...provide the additional general turbine training that's not part of specific type training.

I'm thinking more retroactively here. But prior to the new rules, the difference between an ATP and a type rated C-AMEL was a couple days with Sheppard Air. I agree that the CTP makes the ATP more significant and I can see why insurance companies require an ATP today. But 2 years ago they required It and it would be the same as the insurance company saying "when you fly a CJ1, you must wear a shirt and tie". You really were the same pilot either way.
 
I was one of the civ/mil hybrid guys. Had my ratings up to commercial single/multi/instrument before joining the Air Force. Did the ATP about 3 months ago and that thing was the easiest/most worthless checkride I have ever taken. Literally 3 hours in a Seminole(had never flown one before that) and a checkride. Oral was 20 minutes long and it was basically me and the examiner shooting the s***t about how stupid it is for us military guys flying big heavy iron in a crew environment to have to do it. I think the CTP is really bringing the ATP cert into what it should be. I mean, the ATP cert before the CTP was literally a commercial multi checkride with fewer visual maneuvers and more instrument approaches.
 
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