Stymied by insurance requirements

AdamZ

AdamZ

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Feb 24, 2005
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14,866
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Montgomery County PA
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Display name:
Adam Zucker
AHHHHHHHHhg. Well I got my HP/Complex in a 1975 Lance and worked out a deal to fly another really sweet Lance that spends way to much time in the hangar. Unfortunalty the one I got the endoresement in was sold. So the FBO only has Archers, 172, 150 and DA-20s oh and an Arrow. Nothing to haul like the Lance.
So I help the Lances owner straighten out all his FAA docs whcih were a mess and get other stuff squared away and get his authorization to add me to the policy as a named pilot. and then BUZZZZZZZZZZZ No Go Insurance company won't add me to the policy, Sigh. They want 50 hrs of retract time and another 70 hrs TT befor the will even consider adding me.
Grrrrr the best laid plans of mice an men I guess.
Now I have to figure how to spin this to the combat Air Boss that I need to fly the snot out of something for the next year to year and a half to get the hours. Back to the drawing board.
 
AdamZ said:
AHHHHHHHHhg. Well I got my HP/Complex in a 1975 Lance and worked out a deal to fly another really sweet Lance that spends way to much time in the hangar. Unfortunalty the one I got the endoresement in was sold. So the FBO only has Archers, 172, 150 and DA-20s oh and an Arrow. Nothing to haul like the Lance.
So I help the Lances owner straighten out all his FAA docs whcih were a mess and get other stuff squared away and get his authorization to add me to the policy as a named pilot. and then BUZZZZZZZZZZZ No Go Insurance company won't add me to the policy, Sigh. They want 50 hrs of retract time and another 70 hrs TT befor the will even consider adding me.
Grrrrr the best laid plans of mice an men I guess.
Now I have to figure how to spin this to the combat Air Boss that I need to fly the snot out of something for the next year to year and a half to get the hours. Back to the drawing board.
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I have a similar problem with my buddy's mooney. Insurance wont add me unless I have 15hours in type, plus 50hours retract. Of course, not many people are renting mooneys....

...so I'll just keep flying it from the right seat with my buddy in the left, me acting as sole-manipulator, and he as PIC ;)
 
hmm. my insurance company didnt have a problem with me in my mooney. they just wanted 10 dual, and 10 solo before i could take passengers. Adam, would they insure you in a different complex plane? or is that thier final answer for complex.
 
Stories like this really make me appreciate our club, too. Want to fly the Arrow? No retract time? No problem. 100 hours TT, 10 hours dual in make and model, get your complex and you're good to go. No IR needed. Hit 100 hours TT and 10 hours dual at the same time (dumb luck) a few years ago. Now have about twice the time in the Arrow as in 182s. 216.3 TT, 49.2 of it in the Arrow. Make sure I've got 3 in the past 180 days to keep the insurance company happy. Keep at it, you'll get there. :D
 
Michael said:
hmm. my insurance company didnt have a problem with me in my mooney. they just wanted 10 dual, and 10 solo before i could take passengers. Adam, would they insure you in a different complex plane? or is that thier final answer for complex.
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Well my best guess is that its b/c it is a HP complex not just a complex and it has 6 seats. I know I can fly the FBOs Arrow so I think it probably wouldn't apply to all complex aircraft. Funny thing is at PNE there is a club I looked into with an Archer and a Lance and they said I could fly the Lance. But its a bit of a hike and I probably wouldn't get my $$ out the the club. perhaps clubs have different rules.
 
Adam, call these folks:

http://www.jetinsurance.com

Ask them to quote you in a hypothetical Lance at whatever insurance levels the Lance owner has on his policy (hull value and liability). I suspect that what you are running into is a policy and/or insurance company with high open pilot warranty numbers and a low insurance premium price. If the pilot numbers drop the premium increases. You should be able to find a policy for the Lance with you as a pilot, but the premium may be more. If you are willing to pay the extra premium costs I would hope that the owner will not have any issues. Find an agreeable insurance company through Zanette and come renewal time swap insurance companies. Or, worst case if renewal time is a long ways off, buy a second policy today.
 
I am glad that I have a retract that will rent to me. I almost have 50 hours of retract time. If I ever buy a retract that will help.
 
I feel your pain, Brother Adam...

We ran into that when we tried to by an OH-6A. No company would insure if there were any pilots with under 500 hours helicopter time.

As a result, we're getting close to cutting a deal on an R44 which is a pretty good performing ship, but nowhere near as cool as a Loach, or any other turbine! Robinson will insure it at a pretty reasonable rate if all pilots attend their safety school (which we are all signed up for this summer).
 
How are we supposed to get retract time if the INS co's won't insure us if we don't have retract time?

I can't imagine many people being able to (or wanting to) afford 50 hours of dual in a retract...
 
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inav8r said:
How are we supposed to get retract time if the INS co's won't insure us if we don't have retract time?

I can't imagine many people being able to (or wanting to) afford 50 hours of dual in a retract...
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Let me see...the Arrow III at Sutton runs $135+tax/hour. You'll need an instructor along, at $45+tax/hour. Call it $190/hour.

50 hours, is $9,500.

"Honey, do you mind if I spend ten grand so I can fly Doug's plane on my own ?"

"Not at all Darling...it's not like we'll still be married..."

:D
 
inav8r said:
I can't imagine many people being able to (or wanting to) afford 50 hours of dual in a retract...
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Our club had a 206 before the 182, and that was the requirement to fly the 206, 50 hrs time in type before PIC. I'm glad they went to the 182, 5 dual, 10 TIT, and away we go...
 
SJP said:
"Not at all Darling...it's not like we'll still be married..."

:D
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Well that would leave you more time to fly. Since you will no longer have to do work around the house now that you will be living in a studio apartment:hairraise::D
 
I needed 25 dual and 10 solo before I'd be insured in the Bonanza. I had 200TT, 80 High Perf and 3 complex.

I wonder if you can insure yourself on it through another vendor? How about renters insurance?
 
inav8r said:
How are we supposed to get retract time if the INS co's won't insure us if we don't have retract time?

I can't imagine many people being able to (or wanting to) afford 50 hours of dual in a retract...
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Get your instrument rating flying a retractable gear airplane, do the airwork for commercial license in a retractable gear airplane, get your multi engine in a retractable gear airplane. Try to rent the type that you will eventually buy.

Len
 
i had a student last year in a C-340. he was a PP-MEL. had no insurance, insurance company wouldn't touch him until he had IR. So we worked on IR. I moved to Cedar Rapids for work, he has now bought a 421, is still working on IR, with another instructor of course. Guy has a ton of money, owns lots of housing. Its nice being a young starving college kid sometimes. Not enough assets to worry about an insurance company coming after you
 
inav8r said:
How are we supposed to get retract time if the INS co's won't insure us if we don't have retract time?
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Go to every retract manufacturer and tell them you want a demo flight. :yes:

Get your multi rating, there have only been a couple of multi's ever produced w/o retracts and I doubt you'll find them on a rental line anywhere.

Do anything you need dual for (IR, commercial, BFR/IPC, etc.) in a retract so you're not just spending money on the CFI solely because it's a retract. (I did about 25 hours of my IR in an Arrow before joining a club without a retract.)

I can't imagine many people being able to (or wanting to) afford 50 hours of dual in a retract...
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My primary CFI did worse - He wanted to be an airline pilot and knew he'd need plenty of multi time. So after he got his PP-ASEL, he did PP-AMEL and then did his Instrument rating in the Seneca. By the time he had CP-AMEL and MEI, he had enough hours to instruct in the Seneca and the Aztec and was the only CFI there who could. He hit 1500 TT and 500 multi at the same time and was snatched up by the airlines immediately. Expensive, but effective...
 
Adam:

Don't know if it ever ends. I had trouble moving to the A-36; then to the A-55; then, to the P-Baron, but there are ways to do it.

Flying club helped me with the A-36. Friend with an A-55 helped me get the time. Good broker got me the P-Baron coverage. As you get more time, develop more relationships and become more devious, doors will open ;-)

Dave
 
inav8r said:
How are we supposed to get retract time if the INS co's won't insure us if we don't have retract time?

I can't imagine many people being able to (or wanting to) afford 50 hours of dual in a retract...
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Two words: dual instruction.

Three other words: different ins co
 
Gosh! I wonder how Orville and Wilbur ever got insurance for the Wright Flyer? Maybe things were different back then. Go figure!!!!:dunno:
 
AdamZ said:
Now I have to figure how to spin this to the combat Air Boss that I need to fly the snot out of something for the next year to year and a half to get the hours.
Click to expand...

Tell her its cheaper than a mistress.
 
ya but when you figure in the cost of the divorce? maybe not
 
RotaryWingBob said:
I feel your pain, Brother Adam...

We ran into that when we tried to by an OH-6A. No company would insure if there were any pilots with under 500 hours helicopter time.

As a result, we're getting close to cutting a deal on an R44 which is a pretty good performing ship, but nowhere near as cool as a Loach, or any other turbine! Robinson will insure it at a pretty reasonable rate if all pilots attend their safety school (which we are all signed up for this summer).
Click to expand...

If I recall, Robinson used to hold up their fine R44 as competitive in some ways with the Jet Ranger, not the least of which was overall operating expenses. How does it look next to the Loach?
 
Lots less to operate -- 15 gph 100LL vs 25 gph Jet A. But nowhere near as cool! Both are semirigid rotors (Bell, not the Loach) which are simpler, both have hydraulics assisting on the controls

There's a little of apples and oranges going on in the comparison, though.

THere are reasons that Robinson delivered their 6,000th helo a few months ago. I'd sure love to have a JetRanger, though!
 
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