Stupid pilots

Richard

Richard

Final Approach
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Ack...city life
Pilots using the microphone to see and avoid. Results in chatterbox pilots congesting the freq with nonessential crap. I blame their CFIs as much as the pilot's attitude.
 
Is that time to have the ATITAPA thread again?

I do agree with you though Richard.

I also hate the guy on CTAF who does this: "Podunk traffic, bugsmasher 1234ab is 5 miles to the north at 3200 planning to over the fly the field to see the wind sock, then head out, decscend and return on a 45 for the runway, any traffic in the area please advise, Podunk traffic."

Ya know I really did not need to know all of that. I did leave out the stammers and ums that stretched that into a 3 minute transmission.
 
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TMetzinger said:
In general, I agree. In some situations, a radio is really important, though.
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I think if the plane has a radio it should be used, so I agree with you. But using it badly or, in this case, using it as the primary tool to see and avoid is more than annoying; it actually compromises flight safety.
 
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smigaldi said:
Ya know I really did not need to know all of that. I did leave out the stammers and ums that stretched that into a 3 minute transmission.
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...transmitted on scratchy radios...just after switching to CTAF...without monitoring to get the "flow"...thereby stepping on someone(s).
 
dmccormack said:
"this case" being a specific instance?
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Not a specific instance, rather an ongoing, repeated behavior of many pilots. It's by reason of that constant that I blame the CFIs. Law of primacy.

But a good pilot is always learning, yes? So the pilot by dint of experience should be able to adapt and modify. That assumes a basic competency....is that too much to ask?

And to clarify, I'm talking about low time commercially rated pilots working as pilots.
 
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I can't fault someone for making their position known. Drives me up a wall when I have to hear guys chat about their fishing trip or bowling night, though.
 
Richard said:
Not a specific instance, rather an ongoing, repeated behavior of many pilots. It's by reason of that constant that I blame the CFIs. Law of primacy.

But a good pilot is always learning, yes? So the pilot by dint of experience should be able to adapt and modify. That assumes a basic competency....is that too much to ask?

And to clarify, I'm talking about low time commercially rated pilots working as pilots.
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Well, I don't know the details so can't agree/disagree, but I've found the pilots with the worst radio protocol are the uncontrolled-field-for-all-my-life-old-guys.

"Ahh, Local traffic, Cub rolling..."

or

"Yeah, Mike -- I'm about 10 miles out..."

or

"Tiger in the Pattern, 26.."

Please -- say nothing if you can't provide a clue as to where you are or what you're doing.

Though the funniest radio calls I heard one day were on 122.8 from a nearby airport. It sounded like a young girl in the pattern doing touch and goes. She announced everything with a shrieking loudness that meant she was either flying the Cherokee with the top down, had no headset, or was just plain nervous.

"INDIANA TRAFFIC!! THIS IS CHEROKEE 12345 YANKEE!! MIDFIELD! LEFT DOWNWIND!!!! TOUCH AND GO!!! INDIANAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!"
 
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dmccormack said:
Please -- say nothing if you can't provide a clue as to where you are or what you're doing.
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Well sometimes they do say where they are, just that no one really knows where that it.

I actually heard this at 3CK.

"Bonanza 1234 over one of the lakes kinda north of the airport, request airport advisory and active runway, any traffic in the area please advise."

This guy is a well known PIA at the airport, he often will just cut people off when landing. This was one of the few times he actually used the radio, now we know why.
 
smigaldi said:
Well sometimes they do say where they are, just that no one really knows where that it.

I actually heard this at 3CK.

"Bonanza 1234 over one of the lakes kinda north of the airport, request airport advisory and active runway, any traffic in the area please advise."

This guy is a well known PIA at the airport, he often will just cut people off when landing. This was one of the few times he actually used the radio, now we know why.
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Yeah, I love the "Any traffic please advise" call.

A friend of mine may have replied "No" to one or two of those calls.

Or replied with the AWOS freq.
 
dmccormack said:
Yeah, I love the "Any traffic please advise" call.

A friend of mine may have replied "No" to one or two of those calls.

Or replied with the AWOS freq.
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A guy at Fond du Lac (100 or so NM north of my airport) was doing the ATITAPA call every time he keyed up. I finally responded 'Fond du Lac traffic Cherokee 8116B 100NM south of Fond du Lac turning base at 10C for runway 27 Fon Du Lac."

I think he got the message. My pax who is a CFI, still laughs about it to this day and uses it as a teaching story of you should only ask for what you really need or else you will get info that is meaningless to you.

I have been sorely tempted to respond 'I advise you pick up a new AIM and aquaint yourself with radio procedures' but have never done it.
 
smigaldi said:
Well sometimes they do say where they are, just that no one really knows where that it.

I actually heard this at 3CK.

"Bonanza 1234 over one of the lakes kinda north of the airport, request airport advisory and active runway, any traffic in the area please advise."
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http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/Chap4/aim0401.html Has this to say at 4.1.9 (g)(1):

""Traffic in the area, please advise" is not a recognized Self-Announce Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any condition."

It's a redundant phrase. If you are announcing your position, anyone who's paying attention will hear it, assess whether you're a threat to them, and tell you so. Asking if there's any conflicting traffic adds absolutely nothing to safety.

Here in western Canada it's a real problem. In our area there are numerous CTAFs on 123.2 and any additional phraseology just makes it more difficult for other pilots to make themselves known. They can't get a word in edgewise. I wish Transport Canada would issue a formal declaration against it as the FAA has. But then, who keeps up with changes to the regs?

Dan
 
dmccormack said:
Yeah, I love the "Any traffic please advise" call.

A friend of mine may have replied "No" to one or two of those calls.

Or replied with the AWOS freq.
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Or the ever famous, "advise you read chapter four of the AIM".
 
Richard said:
Pilots using the microphone to see and avoid. Results in chatterbox pilots congesting the freq with nonessential crap. I blame their CFIs as much as the pilot's attitude.
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Richard -- I do understand where you're coming from but today I flew into Cable (KCCB ) There were only 4 of us in the pattern but we all

  • Gave informative and accurate position calls
  • Modified our procedures to fit the situation
  • Knew exactly where the others were
  • Damn it we all had "proper phraseology"!
Sometimes it works. Not all CFIs are idiots. (Well that may be wishful thinking)

Joe
 
steingar said:
I can't fault someone for making their position known. Drives me up a wall when I have to hear guys chat about their fishing trip or bowling night, though.
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How about the clowns running around with handheld radios on the ground using the CTAF to coordinate personal activities (like lunch) - that have nothing whatever to do with the safety of flight? Is simply turning the radio off the solution? There is no rule that says I MUST listen to that crap.
 
smigaldi said:
"Podunk traffic, bugsmasher 1234ab is 5 miles to the north at 3200 planning to over the fly the field to see the wind sock, then head out, decscend and return on a 45 for the runway, any traffic in the area please advise, Podunk traffic."
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Sounds like a Canadian traffic call, only missing the part about what they were doing before the call and what they'll be doing for the rest of their lives.

Perhaps a Canadian POAer would be kind enough to post the "official" phraseology for such a call at an uncontrolled field? (I admit, I'm too lazy to scour the web to find the answer.)

Signed,
A frustrated border dweller.
 
I love the ATITAPA calls. They're almost as fun as the people who try to lecture you about straight-ins. "say again? You're broken and barely readable" ;)
 
sba55 said:
I love the ATITAPA calls. They're almost as fun as the people who try to lecture you about straight-ins. "say again? You're broken and barely readable" ;)
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Yeah, I had a clown try and tell me that straight ins weren't allowed at a local field. Nothing in the A/FD about that, and I'd done them there before. Started my calls about 10 miles out so I could coordinate with anyone in the pattern. Some folks think they are traffic cops and rules writers, all in one. :no:
 
sba55 said:
I love the ATITAPA calls. They're almost as fun as the people who try to lecture you about straight-ins. "say again? You're broken and barely readable" ;)
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One of these days, I'm going to have the guts use a phrase a friend laid on me many years ago: "Say again, you're coming in broken and stupid."
 
Ghery said:
Yeah, I had a clown try and tell me that straight ins weren't allowed at a local field. Nothing in the A/FD about that, and I'd done them there before. Started my calls about 10 miles out so I could coordinate with anyone in the pattern. Some folks think they are traffic cops and rules writers, all in one. :no:
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It's intimadating.

I was right on the glidepath for a straight in 5 miles out when I turned away to enter on a 45, near pattern altitude, literally from the next state, :P when I realized the guy announcing takeoff on the other runway was going to be heading right for me on that side. I watched *very* carefully for him... and never saw him but got clear of that extended runway centerline.

BUT if had gone straight in I would have overflown his runway and we would have had a worse deal if he didn't hold.
 
mikea said:
It's intimadating.

I was right on the glidepath for a straight in 5 miles out when I turned away to enter on a 45, near pattern altitude, literally from the next state, :P when I realized the guy announcing takeoff on the other runway was going to be heading right for me on that side. I watched *very* carefully for him... and never saw him but got clear of that extended runway centerline.

BUT if had gone straight in I would have overflown his runway and we would have had a worse deal if he didn't hold.
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If that guy had taken off a little earlier, or if he had turned toward you earlier while you were on your 45, you would have had a conflict, too.

There's always the potential for traffic conflicts. I don't see how straight-ins make it any more likely.

-Felix
 
I've heard the usual-Cherokee blah blah blah is over the pond near the red barn, etc. which obviously means nothing if you're new to the airport. The response to my position call is then: are you near the truck stop over county highway F, etc, followed by: I can't see you- are you over the Wendy's near highway 5, or closer to the Walmart? My response was: "try talking less and look out the window" I think he got the point. Never did see him.
 
FlyNE said:
Or the ever famous, "advise you read chapter four of the AIM".
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My favorite response to ATITPPA was while approaching Keene, NH.

"There's seven - no wait there is another one - eight NORDOs in the pattern! They must be having a flyin or something! "

-Skip
 
Sometimes things happen, and everybody jumps up and calls someone stupid, but that might not be the case. I flew a customer's airplane back to his home airport one day, and as I was getting close, I started announcing my position and my intentions. I'm real anal about that. There were two other planes in the pattern, and as I was getting ready to squeeze into the downwind, I realized that something was wrong, as no one was responding to me. So I got a little nervous, started doing radio checks and asking everyone if they could hear me. The problem was that I could receive, and when I talked it was coming through my headphones, but it was not transmitting. I messed around with stuff for a moment, but I was pretty much committed. OK, so uncontrolled, no one knows I'm there but I can hear everyone else. I'll keep that all in mind and make double sure that I am predictable and don't interfere with the other two in the pattern. So I put her down and got off the runway at the first turnoff, and some guy gets on the radio and starts yelping about me to the other pilot. Stuff like "where did he come from, it would be nice if he said something, that was a stupid stunt, maybe his radio doesn't work, ha ha." I just said to myself, "Ok, sorry about that, I understand that you were a little surprised to see me, but that's the way it goes."
 
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dmccormack said:
Please -- say nothing if you can't provide a clue as to where you are or what you're doing.
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That says it all.

"Podunk traffic, Nxxxx, 18 DME out, landing Podunk."

Really? Without a bearing or cardinal direction relative to the airport such a transmission is meaningless. And which RWY do you plan to use? And using "DME" for a VFR flight is itself confusing; one may think you are IFR and expect you to fly the approach...yet there is not any instrument approach using DME.* Yet, this is exactly the kind of crap I hear every day. "Professional" pilots too.

*The point is being relatable to ALL traffic. Ask yourself, Does what I say make sense to the transient pilot?

As some of you know I am currently flying tours of Lake Powell. I started this thread because I've had it up to here with some of my coworkers...it's like they would have to declare the E if they dropped the microphone.

Max, a couple years ago I needed some avionics work (could transmit but no one could hear although I could receive very well). So I flew over to visit my man Radar for the work. He's based at a non-towered field. Boy, the crap I got for not announcing. One guy said on freq he would kick my ass for not calling my position. When he taxied by I tried to wave him down but he ignored me.

EDIT: On the last flight this evening one pilot transmitted: "(Callsign) radio check. I'm not sure anyone can hear me, I pulled the knob off my radio so am returning to base." WTF??? This coming from a guy who represented himself as previously flying Part 135 cargo.

If I had a rocket launcher....
 
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Richard said:
That says it all.

"Podunk traffic, Nxxxx, 18 DME out, landing Podunk."

Really? Without a bearing or cardinal direction relative to the airport such a transmission is meaningless. And which RWY do you plan to use? And using "DME" for a VFR flight is itself confusing; one may think you are IFR and expect you to fly the approach...yet there is not any instrument approach using DME.* Yet, this is exactly the kind of crap I hear every day. "Professional" pilots too.

*The point is being relatable to ALL traffic. Ask yourself, Does what I say make sense to the transient pilot?

As some of you know I am currently flying tours of Lake Powell. I started this thread because I've had it up to here with some of my coworkers...it's like they would have to declare the E if they dropped the microphone.

Max, a couple years ago I needed some avionics work (could transmit but no one could hear although I could receive very well). So I flew over to visit my man Radar for the work. He's based at a non-towered field. Boy, the crap I got for not announcing. One guy said on freq he would kick my ass for not calling my position. When he taxied by I tried to wave him down but he ignored me.

EDIT: On the last flight this evening one pilot transmitted: "(Callsign) radio check. I'm not sure anyone can hear me, I pulled the knob off my radio so am returning to base." WTF??? This coming from a guy who represented himself as previously flying Part 135 cargo.

If I had a rocket launcher....
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Far too many stupid people on this planet. I am still looking of signs of intelligent life here ;)
 
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I'll never get these types either... why don't they see the obvious?

When planes trade paint, it's not because they couldn't hear each other... it's because they couldn't see each other.

I'd like to ask the "kick your ass" guy "If you saw me flying straight at you, would you be able to avoid me even if I didn't announce my position?"
They would answer "yes", of course, to which I'd respond "then why are you so upset that I didn't announce my position?"


The radio is not the primary means of avoiding traffic conflict; it's secondary. Nice to have, but not essential- and certainly not required- by the FARs or common sense!
The only reason radio is required at towered fields is because Tower is in control of traffic.
It's worth noting that at Wittman, during Airventure, when they handle more traffic during that one week than most towered fields handle in an entire year, pilots do not transmit unless asked to do so.
If self-announcing is so vital to safety, how is it that there's never been a midair in that bee's nest of traffic? The controllers there are awesome, but it takes something else: predictable flying and a flexible neck.

And several of the above posts point out another obvious flaw in this logic: So many radio calls are useless or in accurate to the point of creating a hazard, if other pilots take them at face value.
When I hear a call from an aircraft that may be a potential conflict, I immediately try to spot them visually.
 
dmccormack said:
Well, I don't know the details so can't agree/disagree, but I've found the pilots with the worst radio protocol are the uncontrolled-field-for-all-my-life-old-guys.

"Ahh, Local traffic, Cub rolling..."

or

"Yeah, Mike -- I'm about 10 miles out..."

or

"Tiger in the Pattern, 26.."

Please -- say nothing if you can't provide a clue as to where you are or what you're doing.

Though the funniest radio calls I heard one day were on 122.8 from a nearby airport. It sounded like a young girl in the pattern doing touch and goes. She announced everything with a shrieking loudness that meant she was either flying the Cherokee with the top down, had no headset, or was just plain nervous.

"INDIANA TRAFFIC!! THIS IS CHEROKEE 12345 YANKEE!! MIDFIELD! LEFT DOWNWIND!!!! TOUCH AND GO!!! INDIANAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!"
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Actually heard a guy answer a tower request for his position once transmit;
"I'm over some buildings that are under me".

The tower response was even better; "You're kidding?"
 
Dudley Henriques said:
Actually heard a guy answer a tower request for his position once transmit;
"I'm over some buildings that are under me".

The tower response was even better; "You're kidding?"
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Like Buddy Hackett and Mickey Rooney in "It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World:"

"Hey! You on the ground! This is us up in the plane! We're in an awful jam..."

What ever happened to "in a jam" anyway? It seemed it was pretty common term up from 1930s movies until the 70s. :dunno:

The pilots kept saying it in "Island in the Sky."
 
mikea said:
Like Buddy Hackett and Mickey Rooney in "It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World:"

"Hey! You on the ground! This is us up in the plane! We're in an awful jam..."

What ever happened to "in a jam" anyway? It seemed it was pretty common term up from 1930s movies until the 70s. :dunno:

The pilots kept saying it in "Island in the Sky."
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That was Paul Mantz taking that Twin Beech through the billboard in that scene in MMW. He had 18 inches of tip clearance on each side of the sign if I remember right, and a bullseye painted in the middle of the back of the sign for the nose.
Great movie!

"Jam" was a common phrase back then; right up there with "Golly Gee" and "swell" God I'm getting old!!!!!!!
:-))
 
Dudley Henriques said:
That was Paul Mantz taking that Twin Beech through the billboard in that scene in MMW. He had 18 inches of tip clearance on each side of the sign if I remember right, and a bullseye painted in the middle of the back of the sign for the nose.
Great movie!

"Jam" was a common phrase back then; right up there with "Golly Gee" and "swell" God I'm getting old!!!!!!!
:-))
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Sky King "Coming in for a landing," which I thought all pilots said. Us kids definitely said it with our arms outstretched. :D
 
mikea said:
Sky King "Coming in for a landing," which I thought all pilots said. Us kids definitely said it with our arms outstretched. :D
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Just as long as you don't say "Roger Wilco" to New York Center you're probably in good shape :-)))
 
mikea said:
Like Buddy Hackett and Mickey Rooney in "It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World:"

"Hey! You on the ground! This is us up in the plane! We're in an awful jam..."

What ever happened to "in a jam" anyway? It seemed it was pretty common term up from 1930s movies until the 70s. :dunno:

The pilots kept saying it in "Island in the Sky."
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Stuff we used to say..."In a pickle." "Between the butter and the jam."

I watched MMMMW just the other night. Still as funny even though this was probably the ten hundreth time I've seen it.
 
Ghery said:
Yeah, I had a clown try and tell me that straight ins weren't allowed at a local field. Nothing in the A/FD about that, and I'd done them there before. Started my calls about 10 miles out so I could coordinate with anyone in the pattern. Some folks think they are traffic cops and rules writers, all in one. :no:
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I had one do that to me up here. Long story, but at this airport, due to terrain, a pattern entry is difficult and dangerous as you have to do it on an upwind, over the airport and descend into it. He decided to give me free flight instruction on the radio about straight in's. I gave him my thoughts on being treated like a kid. Guess some old flight instructors think they are smarter than everyone else :confused:
 
JoeSelch said:
Sounds like a Canadian traffic call, only missing the part about what they were doing before the call and what they'll be doing for the rest of their lives.

Perhaps a Canadian POAer would be kind enough to post the "official" phraseology for such a call at an uncontrolled field? (I admit, I'm too lazy to scour the web to find the answer.)
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From the Canadian AIM:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/publications/tp14371/RAC/4-1.htm#4-5

Pilot:FREDERICTON RADIO, BELLANCA FOXTROT X-RAY YANKEE ZULU. WE HAVE THE NUMBERS, SIX MILES SOUTHWEST AT THREE THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED VFR. INBOUND FOR LANDING.

"Have the numbers" refers to ATIS that may or may not be present. Sometimes "six miles southwest" is said as "six southwest" to condense it further.

Dan the Canuck
 
Dan Thomas said:
From the Canadian AIM:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/publications/tp14371/RAC/4-1.htm#4-5

Pilot:FREDERICTON RADIO, BELLANCA FOXTROT X-RAY YANKEE ZULU. WE HAVE THE NUMBERS, SIX MILES SOUTHWEST AT THREE THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED VFR. INBOUND FOR LANDING.

"Have the numbers" refers to ATIS that may or may not be present. Sometimes "six miles southwest" is said as "six southwest" to condense it further.

Dan the Canuck
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Interesting, that example doesn't strike me as being very informative. There's no information about the runway or entry he'll be flying, the bit about having the numbers is useless to anyone but himself, and whether or not he's VFR doesn't make a difference, either.....odd.

-Felix
 
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