Stupid Holds

Flying_Nun

Flying_Nun

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Flying_Nun
I thought I understood the 70 degree dividing line rule for holds but I've missed every damn question in the study guide.

So, if you received the following clearance, how would you enter the hold and why?

Aircraft Heading 155

CLEARED ABC VORTAC. HOLD SOUTH ON 1-8-0 RADIAL.


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Step 1 is to draw the hold. Did you do that?
 
The hold is south of the VOR, right hand turns, on the 180 degree radial. Inbound leg of hold is always towards the holding waypoint. The entry is teardrop. See the drawing.

I suggest you make a similar drawing for every hold in question. In the airplane I draw on Postits. Take your time. So many try to rush through to a solution.
 

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Assuming your heading 155 because your inbound to ABC on the 335 radial it's a teardrop entry. Cross ABC and then outbound heading roughly 150 for a minute and then turn right joining the 180 radial inbound which has you heading about 360. Are these questions giving you any winds?
 
Well, now I feel really dumb. I did draw this one (usually just visualize it in my head).

I've been going outbound from the fix instead of inbound. [head slap]

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Holds with the leg going outbound from the fix CANNOT be allowed. If they could, then there would be TWO possible holds for every holding instruction.

Its logical to have the inbound leg of the hold going TOWARDS the fix. That allows the pilot to "wiggle in" to get on the inbound track. Trying to do a 180 turn to the fix (which you would have to do if the leg was outbound), is hard, awkward and not as precise a result.
 
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i was always told,to draw the hold before trying to answer the question,much easier to visualize the hold if your looking at it.
 
When I was an engineering student I graded homework papers for a prof. After we had all the homework graded, he had us work the problems in the back of the chapter, and some of the answers (we had the books answers, you know the teachers copy), some of the answers were wrong. The prof then tasked us with trying to figure out HOW whoever got those wrong answers arrived at them. Talk about a perplexing problem. But you are welcome to try. Ill give you a hint, the inbound "leg" in this case is a 180 degree turn. Draw it up.

Believe it or not there seems to be numerous pilots, instructors and even DE's that dont even know what an inbound leg is. And they think that holds can be either way. And since doing a 180 turn and arriving at the fix is "harder" than going straight in, they do the student a "favor" and have the student do it do it the "hard" way. Ive even heard a DE say that a righthand hold north of a fix on the 360 radial is a called a hold northwest of the fix because it is north of the fix and west of the 360 radial. So dont think everyone has it right. Some don't. And its probably because their instructor didnt understand it and tried to teach hold ENTRIES. How can you do a hold entry correct if you dont know where the hold is?

Talk to ATC. Pilots really screw up holds. Its gotten better because of GPS but ATC usually doesnt care what a pilot does so long as he stays at altitude somewhere around the hold. They clear the airspace around them for miles on ALL sides, cause you never know. They come back later and the guy is pointed the wrong way, that one can cause a chuckle.
 

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In garmin we trust.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Believe it or not there seems to be numerous pilots, instructors and even DE's that dont even know what an inbound leg is. And they think that holds can be either way. And since doing a 180 turn and arriving at the fix is "harder" than going straight in, they do the student a "favor" and have the student do it do it the "hard" way. Ive even heard a DE say that a righthand hold north of a fix on the 360 radial is a called a hold northwest of the fix because it is north of the fix and west of the 360 radial. So dont think everyone has it right. Some don't. And its probably because their instructor didnt understand it and tried to teach hold ENTRIES. How can you do a hold entry correct if you dont know where the hold is?
Click to expand...
I came across one within the past few months. A hold north of a fix on the 360 radial is northeast because that's the direction you turn when you reach the fix on an inbound leg.

The biggest problem is that holds are taught to be waaaaayyyyy more complicated than they are. 90% of the information need to visualize the appropriate entry is in the first two words of the instruction. "hold [direction]" (and knowing where we are coming from), but we get so jammed up by the numbers we lose sight of that. I recall when I was preparing for my private knowledge test eons ago, I was told the #1 wrong answer on the cross country questions was the answer 180 degrees from the correct answer. I think it's the same cant-see-the-forest-for-the-trees mentality when dealing with holds.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I came across one within the past few months. A hold north of a fix on the 360 radial is northeast because that's the direction you turn when you reach the fix on an inbound leg.
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The direction of the pattern, left or right, does not change the direction of the hold.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I came across one within the past few months. A hold north of a fix on the 360 radial is northeast because that's the direction you turn when you reach the fix on an inbound leg.

The biggest problem is that holds are taught to be waaaaayyyyy more complicated than they are. 90% of the information need to visualize the appropriate entry is in the first two words of the instruction. "hold [direction]" (and knowing where we are coming from), but we get so jammed up by the numbers we lose sight of that. I recall when I was preparing for my private knowledge test eons ago, I was told the #1 wrong answer on the cross country questions was the answer 180 degrees from the correct answer. I think it's the same cant-see-the-forest-for-the-trees mentality when dealing with holds.
Click to expand...
I had an instructor years ago who thought "hold northwest of the XYZ VOR 220 degree/10 mile fix" was holding on the 060 inbound to the fix with left turns.
 
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MauleSkinner said:
Teardrop, unless it

I had an instructor years ago who thought "hold northwest of the XYZ VOR 220 degree/10 mile fix" was holding on the 060 inbound to the fix with left turns.
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How do you hold "northwest of the XYZ VOR 220 degree/10 mile fix"? If your radial is the 220, I can see southwest or northeast, but not northwest.
 
midlifeflyer said:
How do you hold "northwest of the XYZ VOR 220 degree/10 mile fix"? If your radial is the 220, I can see southwest or northeast, but not northwest.
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Mark, you aren’t letting Walter live in his fantasy world.
 
coloradobluesky said:
When I was an engineering student I graded homework papers for a prof. After we had all the homework graded, he had us work the problems in the back of the chapter, and some of the answers (we had the books answers, you know the teachers copy), some of the answers were wrong. The prof then tasked us with trying to figure out HOW whoever got those wrong answers arrived at them. Talk about a perplexing problem. But you are welcome to try. Ill give you a hint, the inbound "leg" in this case is a 180 degree turn. Draw it up.

Believe it or not there seems to be numerous pilots, instructors and even DE's that dont even know what an inbound leg is. And they think that holds can be either way. And since doing a 180 turn and arriving at the fix is "harder" than going straight in, they do the student a "favor" and have the student do it do it the "hard" way. Ive even heard a DE say that a righthand hold north of a fix on the 360 radial is a called a hold northwest of the fix because it is north of the fix and west of the 360 radial. So dont think everyone has it right. Some don't. And its probably because their instructor didnt understand it and tried to teach hold ENTRIES. How can you do a hold entry correct if you dont know where the hold is?

Talk to ATC. Pilots really screw up holds. Its gotten better because of GPS but ATC usually doesnt care what a pilot does so long as he stays at altitude somewhere around the hold. They clear the airspace around them for miles on ALL sides, cause you never know. They come back later and the guy is pointed the wrong way, that one can cause a chuckle.
Click to expand...

For this particular question, I was trying to make the hold your Example A. In general, I was confusing "Hold South of ABC" as direction of flight on the assigned radial rather than the space to occupy while in the hold. So, I would be flying outbound from the fix instead of inbound. I think I've got it now.

Thanks to everyone for the input.
 
Clark1961 said:
Mark, you aren’t letting Walter live in his fantasy world.
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LOL! I'm sure he'll recognize the error when he looks at it.

I once gave an instrument student one just like it. The student was unbelievable. From the very first time, he understood holds. No drawing, no calculating, no agonizing. Didn't even bother writing them down. He just "saw" them as they were given and knew exactly what to do.

So I give him the instruction and, without even a moment's hesitation he says, "you can't do that."

[Edit to correct typo giving opposite information.]
 
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Flying_Nun said:
For this particular question, I was trying to make the hold your Example A. In general, I was confusing "Hold South of ABC" as direction of flight on the assigned radial rather than the space to occupy while in the hold. So, I would be flying outbound from the fix instead of inbound. I think I've got it now.

Thanks to everyone for the input.
Click to expand...
If you've got that, you've got it!
 
I suggest you take a look at these holds and write down the ATC instruction for each hold. Then, in your spare time, draw numerous holds, with their corresponding ATC instructions.
 

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midlifeflyer said:
How do you hold "northwest of the XYZ VOR 220 degree/10 mile fix"? If your radial is the 220, I can see southwest or northeast, but not northwest.
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Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

:D

That particular instructor and I got into a couple of ****ing contests...beating the instructor/examiner in ****ing contests doesn't go over real well.
 
FWIW, YT has a lot of decent videos on visualizing holds, they helped me some.
(this is not meant exactly only for the OP, it might help others too)
 
Passed with an 85%. Was looking to get in the 90s but... Also, not a single question on holds.

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Congratulations! In anyone's book (except my first CFII's), 85% is still passing! Now work towards that checkride... :cheers:
 
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