Student with ATP looking to add-on a Single Engine rating...

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Derek Guiliano

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Got a student coming in for a week first week of August, wants to get a Single Engine Add-on. Has 2500 hours in an F-15, holds a Multi-engine ATP. Wants to get Single. Likely take him through Commercial Single Engine, but wanted to see if I was correct in looking at the Single Engine ATP add-on.

61.165 gives the requirements for the Single Add-on, and if I'm correct, these are the requirements:

Another Written based on 61.155(c) (seriously?!)
Must meet 61.157(b) - get training from an instructor with an ATP rating, get endorsed to take the ride, Checkride to instrument standards

So, reading this, to merely add on a single engine to his ATP Multi rating, he has to take another written, get trained by another ATP CFI, and then signed off? Wow, this has changed a lot. If this is all the case, I can't do that for him. After speaking with him, he is fine getting the CSEL, just need to make sure all my ducks are in a row with that. He has to have single privileges already, correct?

Thanks all.
 
I don't think he needs another written going from multi to single.

Should just be a practical, since it's a ATP I don't even think he needs any training or sign offs from a CFI, about 90% sure on that.
 
Thing is, everything changed with the ATP stuff a couple of years ago, which is why I started looking it up. It used to be that way, but now, I don't think so in looking at 61.165.
 
Ok, new development. He ONLY holds the ATP Multiengine Land. Why do I feel like this is going to be a problem? Ugh.
 
Where are you seeing the CFI that signs him off needs to be an ATP? The (b) section is only applicable to type ratings.
 
You are correct, this is what I'm referring to:

(b) Airplane category rating with a single-engine class rating. A person applying for an airline transport certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating who holds an airline transport pilot certificate with another aircraft category rating must:

(1) Meet the eligibility requirements of §61.153 of this part;

(2) Pass a knowledge test on the aeronautical knowledge areas of §61.155(c) of this part;

(3) Comply with the requirements in §61.157(b) of this part, if appropriate;

(4) Meet the applicable aeronautical experience requirements of §61.159 of this part; and

(5) Pass the practical test on the areas of operation of §61.157(e)(1) of this part.

Yeah, sorry, I just realized it's for type ratings, not an add-on. Sub-section (2) is what concerns me, does that mean he has to take ANOTHER written?

Also, think I found the section pertaining to military experience to get his commercial single engine, 61.73 for military experience.
 
Derek Guiliano said:
Thing is, everything changed with the ATP stuff a couple of years ago, which is why I started looking it up. It used to be that way, but now, I don't think so in looking at 61.165.
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That was all just for the ME ATP

As a CFI just make sure he knows the systems inside and out, can fly to spec, and knows the avionics, especially the GLS/VLOC button if so equipped.
 
From what you posted, it looks like he needs to take the ATP single written and just get someone to sign him off.
 
And in order to take the written, needs to go through a program like all the other ATP writtens now?
 
I'm curious what the benefit of adding the ATP-SE over the CSEL is, unless it's employment related.
 
Much easier ride if you are basically doing that stuff already. Military guys fly to pretty strict standards, and ATP is similar already. Wouldn't have to do a lot of the commercial maneuvers. IIRC, an ATP ride is essentially an enhanced instrument ride.
 
I'm curious too see which employers require an ATP-single. Or is this guy just doing the rating for fun?
 
The ATP-Single can be used in lieu of commercial single. That, and ATP single provides instrument privileges as well I believe (could be wrong), whereas if he went CSEL, he's also have to get a commercial rating, though it's possible that can be tacked on with the checkride I suppose, not sure. This is very new to me so I'm basically trying to find all these answers.
 
Derek Guiliano said:
Much easier ride if you are basically doing that stuff already. Military guys fly to pretty strict standards, and ATP is similar already. Wouldn't have to do a lot of the commercial maneuvers. IIRC, an ATP ride is essentially an enhanced instrument ride.
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However depending on avionics, if he doesn't have time on a 430 and the plane he's taking the ride in has a 430, he's going to have a hard time without some hours behind that box.
 
The plane and avionics package will be his choice. We will have the whole week to work on it, 6 hours a day. Being a military pilot, I'd be surprised if he didn't pick up on it all pretty quickly anyway. The biggest hurdle is going to be getting him used to flying slow and stable again, lol.
 
Derek Guiliano said:
The plane and avionics package will be his choice. We will have the whole week to work on it, 6 hours a day. Being a military pilot, I'd be surprised if he didn't pick up on it all pretty quickly anyway. The biggest hurdle is going to be getting him used to flying slow and stable again, lol.
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Just be careful, just because someone flew a F-15, well it doesn't always transition well to other stuff, worse landing I've had with a student was with a F-18 driver.
 
James331 said:
Just be careful, just because someone flew a F-15, well it doesn't always transition well to other stuff, worse landing I've had with a student was with a F-18 driver.
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This, especially if they haven't flown GA in while. The best checkouts I've had were airline, corporate, and military pilots who were still actively flying single pistons. The worst were the same people who haven't touched a piston single in years.
 
jordane93 said:
I'm curious too see which employers require an ATP-single. Or is this guy just doing the rating for fun?
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No it's not about that. If the guy is going to want to own or rent a single engine piston aircraft (presumably the guy is retiring, looking into the airlines, and all his buddies are introducing him to the wonderful world of overpriced GA :D), legally (and insane as it is) he can't do it!

How does this happens you ask? The guy being an old timer F-15 guy, probably went through UPT when we were still flying T-37s in phase II, which means he never flew a single engine airplane in the AF (unless he did fly the T-6 after the fact, and this is important to find out). In the case of this particular individual, it appears he never bothered to get the mil comp equivalency for a commercial (CSEL and CMEL {CL-restricted for 38s, normal for T1} for folks who flew T-6 in phase II; CMEL-only for folks who flew the T-37 in phase II) once he completed UPT, or any of his Form 8 qualifications in an MWS (F-15 in his case).

So that's how you end up having an ATP-MEL as your only FAA plastic. Not good enough to PIC on your own your run of the mill GA SE spam can.

To get the CSEL he would need to take the milcomp written (Sheppard Air sells the gouge), which is waaaaay easier and shorter than the ATP written of either flavor. I was one of those guys who took the old ATP written before it went dead, and I know they now have two separate writtens for the SE and ME. I have no idea how the SE ATP written stacks, but if it's like the old ATP all-out written, I much rather take the commercial milcomp written. At any rate, then he brings his Form 8s from the F-15 to the FSDO with the milcomp written score, and bam, they issue him a CMEL (CL-restricted) on the spot. With that license in hand he can go do the single engine add-on for commercial, which doesn't require a written at that point. He's still taking one written, whether he goes the commercial single or ATP single route. No getting around that at this point. I would ask if he has any qualification in the T-6 or any other AF single engine aircraft though, and this can all go away without the need for a practical checkride of any kind.

Or he can just tell the FAA to stuff it, and go flying twin spam cans and just make it rain like that. Wouldn't be the first time pilots were accused of being penny wise pounds foolish... :D
 
Funny you guys mention possible transition issues, my buddy has been flying 767/757 for a long time and when we talked about going up in a GA , he said he wouldnt want to fly at all because he'd probably be panicked by the fact we would be under his stall speed most of the time.
 
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Thank you Hindsight, this is exactly what I was looking for!!!! Thank you Thank you!!!!
 
James331 said:
Just be careful, just because someone flew a F-15, well it doesn't always transition well to other stuff, worse landing I've had with a student was with a F-18 driver.
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Yes, currency in comparable equipment is important. About 20 years ago my brother and I sold a C-310 to an ex airline pilot. He had thousands of hours in 737's and had participated as a pilot in some Boeing aircraft test programs. At the time I was a CFII and I had probably 600 hours, 200 or so in a 310. I was looking forward to fly with this experienced guy. I briefed him on the normal takeoff procedure - and off we went. At normal rotation speed (about 85 kts), instead of gently raising the nose and waiting for the airplane to fly off, he rotated about 15 degrees nose up and we were quickly 40 ft high at a high deck angle on the edge of a stall. I took the controls; it was a pretty close call. After an hour or so, he had smoothed out a lot. I was used to things like this with students, but this one caught me by suprise.
 
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edo2000 said:
instead of gently raising the nose and waiting for the airplane to fly off, he rotated about 15 degrees nose up and we were quickly 40 ft high at a high deck angle on the edge of a stall. I took the controls
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Ditto; same thing.
(Thrust of a 737 > C150)
 
hindsight2020 said:
....it appears he never bothered to get the mil comp equivalency for a commercial...
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That's the part I just don't get; why the dude just didn't do it like just about everyone else did at the end of UPT.
 
James331 said:
Just be careful, just because someone flew a F-15, well it doesn't always transition well to other stuff, worse landing I've had with a student was with a F-18 driver.
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I had an elderly gentleman approach me wanting to get current so he could fly his great grand daughter around the patch. We went up and found he kept trying to slam us in going way to slow. After a few times I called it and went back to the FBO. On the way back I asked him when the last time he flew was besides "it's been a while".

No **** he said South Pacific flying Hellcats.....

I ended up taking him and his great granddaughter up and gave him the controls if I could take the landing.
 
I am in a similar situation. In high school, I got my PPL, then went into the Air Force and now work for an airline. My license now says ATP:AMEL, Private Privileges:ASEL. I haven't flown GA aircraft in decades, but I have a 14 year old son who wants to become a pilot and I thought it might be fun to get my CFI so I can teach him. I have been researching what would be involved and figured I would need to get my commercial SEL then the CFI, but reading a couple of the posts above made me think it might be simpler to get my ATP:ASEL before getting the CFI (I wouldn't have to do the commercial maneuvers on a checkride(?) thus would be able to move on to working on the CFI stuff sooner). Does this sound like the better route to go? Thanks in advance for the help.
 
tspatrick said:
I am in a similar situation. In high school, I got my PPL, then went into the Air Force and now work for an airline. My license now says ATP:AMEL, Private Privileges:ASEL. I haven't flown GA aircraft in decades, but I have a 14 year old son who wants to become a pilot and I thought it might be fun to get my CFI so I can teach him. I have been researching what would be involved and figured I would need to get my commercial SEL then the CFI, but reading a couple of the posts above made me think it might be simpler to get my ATP:ASEL before getting the CFI (I wouldn't have to do the commercial maneuvers on a checkride(?) thus would be able to move on to working on the CFI stuff sooner). Does this sound like the better route to go? Thanks in advance for the help.
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The CPL maneuvers are really quite easy VFR stuff, I wouldn't want to CFI until I could fly basic VFR maneuvers
 
James331 said:
The CPL maneuvers are really quite easy VFR stuff, I wouldn't want to CFI until I could fly basic VFR maneuvers
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Can you get your CFI without being able to fly them? I thought that was in the PTS, but it's been a long time since I looked.
 
Yes, but if they are hard for you to the point you can't pass a glorified PPL (which is all the CPL is) probably good to get those skills buffed out sooner than later.
 
tspatrick said:
I am in a similar situation. In high school, I got my PPL, then went into the Air Force and now work for an airline. My license now says ATP:AMEL, Private Privileges:ASEL. I haven't flown GA aircraft in decades, but I have a 14 year old son who wants to become a pilot and I thought it might be fun to get my CFI so I can teach him. I have been researching what would be involved and figured I would need to get my commercial SEL then the CFI, but reading a couple of the posts above made me think it might be simpler to get my ATP:ASEL before getting the CFI (I wouldn't have to do the commercial maneuvers on a checkride(?) thus would be able to move on to working on the CFI stuff sooner). Does this sound like the better route to go? Thanks in advance for the help.
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You're going to have to be able to fly and teach the commercial maneuvers on the CFI checkride anyway so I don't believe getting an ATP ASEL instead of a commercial ASEL would be beneficial in your given situation. You might actually end up spending more time obtaining both certificates doing it the way you propose instead of learning the commercial maneuvers on the first checkride then repeating the maneuvers from the right seat on the second checkride.
 
tspatrick said:
I am in a similar situation. In high school, I got my PPL, then went into the Air Force and now work for an airline. My license now says ATP:AMEL, Private Privileges:ASEL. I haven't flown GA aircraft in decades, but I have a 14 year old son who wants to become a pilot and I thought it might be fun to get my CFI so I can teach him. I have been researching what would be involved and figured I would need to get my commercial SEL then the CFI, but reading a couple of the posts above made me think it might be simpler to get my ATP:ASEL before getting the CFI (I wouldn't have to do the commercial maneuvers on a checkride(?) thus would be able to move on to working on the CFI stuff sooner). Does this sound like the better route to go? Thanks in advance for the help.
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Assuming you flew in the service, do you have any old paperwork that shows you were an instructor of any sort in the USAF? If so, very simple path to CFI. Then, go out and get comfy in little planes (hint: don't flare when your eyeball is 30' AGL). Befriend a local flight school or instructor for a syllabus and advice, and have at it.

And welcome, lots of advice in the archives here. Some of it even good.
 
mondtster said:
You're going to have to be able to fly and teach the commercial maneuvers on the CFI checkride anyway so I don't believe getting an ATP ASEL instead of a commercial ASEL would be beneficial in your given situation. You might actually end up spending more time obtaining both certificates doing it the way you propose instead of learning the commercial maneuvers on the first checkride then repeating the maneuvers from the right seat on the second checkride.
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Thank you. This is the kind of feedback I was looking for.
 
catmandu said:
Assuming you flew in the service, do you have any old paperwork that shows you were an instructor of any sort in the USAF? If so, very simple path to CFI. Then, go out and get comfy in little planes (hint: don't flare when your eyeball is 30' AGL). Befriend a local flight school or instructor for a syllabus and advice, and have at it.

And welcome, lots of advice in the archives here. Some of it even good.
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Thanks. I'm aware of that route to the CFI. A friend of mine used it. Unfortunately I was never an instructor in the military. I'm going to have to do it the hard way.

I've been wandering around the forum for a few days now and have learned some good stuff already. It's a good resource to have found.
 
Derek Guiliano said:
Got a student coming in for a week first week of August, wants to get a Single Engine Add-on. Has 2500 hours in an F-15, holds a Multi-engine ATP. Wants to get Single. Likely take him through Commercial Single Engine, but wanted to see if I was correct in looking at the Single Engine ATP add-on.

61.165 gives the requirements for the Single Add-on, and if I'm correct, these are the requirements:

Another Written based on 61.155(c) (seriously?!)
Must meet 61.157(b) - get training from an instructor with an ATP rating, get endorsed to take the ride, Checkride to instrument standards

So, reading this, to merely add on a single engine to his ATP Multi rating, he has to take another written, get trained by another ATP CFI, and then signed off? Wow, this has changed a lot. If this is all the case, I can't do that for him. After speaking with him, he is fine getting the CSEL, just need to make sure all my ducks are in a row with that. He has to have single privileges already, correct?

************************************
That is not correct. Read a little further into that regulation to 61.165(e) Additional class rating with the same aircraft category. There is no requirement for a knowledge test. The category is Airplane and you are adding a SE category.
Additionally, there are no specific legal training requirements. An ATP is recommended and would be prudent, but you could actually fly with any one who is qualified to be your safety pilot as long as you are familiar with the requirements and can bring your skills to the required proficiency level. If you bust the ride however you will need a sign off from a qualified instructor for a retest.

By the way, the written requirement is documented in FAA Order 8080.6H, Conduct ofAirman Knowledge Tests. The matrix for Airline Transport Pilot - additional rating, Figure 4-5 specifies that for an applicant that holds ATP multiengine does not require a written for single engine add-on. Actually once you have an ATP multi rating (Land or Sea) the only other ATP written you would ever need to take is for ATP helicopter. Now if you only hold ATP single engine (land or sea) however you would need to take a written to add on either of the ATP multi-ratings.

Thanks all. The more moving parts in the aircraft the safer I feel.
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