Student Sport Pilot Solo Endorsement Questions

[N918KT]

This coming Sunday, I am planning a solo flight to an airport nearby less than 25 nm from my home airport. I know I have to get <25 nm endorsements for each airport I have to fly to and one of the airports I was thinking of flying to is a nearby towered airport. I have flown and received training in this but when he endorsed my logbook it was one of those template endorsements at the back of the logbook that says I could fly in accordance with Part 61.325. I think that is the endorsement is if I am already a sport pilot and want the airspace endorsement.

Should the endorsement be under 61.94 - Student Pilot Seeking Sport Pilot Certificate in Class B,C,D airspace?

Or does it not matter?

Also another related question but is it possible I could fly to two airports within 25 nm of my home airport as long as all airports are listed in my initial <25 nm endorsement Part 61.93(b)(1)? For example, I fly from airport A my home airport to airport B, then airport C and then back to airport A and both airports B and C are within 25 nm from airport A. My CFI said it should be okay.

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

Also another related question but is it possible I could fly to two airports within 25 nm of my home airport as long as all airports are listed in my initial <25 nm endorsement Part 61.93(b)(1)? For example, I fly from airport A my home airport to airport B, then airport C and then back to airport A and both airports B and C are within 25 nm from airport A. My CFI said it should be okay.

You may only fly to airports within 25 nautical miles if your instructor has flown those routes with you. So, if you fly to one and then want to go to the other, you must have flown that route before with your instructor.

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

You may only fly to airports within 25 nautical miles if your instructor has flown those routes with you. So, if you fly to one and then want to go to the other, you must have flown that route before with your instructor.

Hmm, it was pitched differently to me during training years ago. They could add additional airports without having to fly there with me.
I just checked my logbook and they just specified which airports they were comfortable with me going to, though we always practiced at KDKB.

My logbook has an entry that says:
<STUDENT PILOT - SOLO TAKEOFFS AND LANDINGS AT AN AIRPORT WITHIN 25 NM>
I verify that <student name> has received the required training of 61.93. I have determined that they are proficient to practice solo takeoffs and landings at <Airport Code(s) Here>, subject to the following conditions <viz/ceiling/wind limitation information>.

If someone gives this signoff are they asserting they've determined you're proficient to practice at that airport, or are they asserting you're competent to operate there AND they've flown there w/you?

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

Look up 61.93 (3) (c) (1) (i) and (2) (i). It includes " ...training includes flight in both directions over the route...."

 

[midlifeflyer]

Hmm, it was pitched differently to me during training years ago. They could add additional airports without having to fly there with me.
I just checked my logbook and they just specified which airports they were comfortable with me going to, though we always practiced at KDKB.

My logbook has an entry that says:
<STUDENT PILOT - SOLO TAKEOFFS AND LANDINGS AT AN AIRPORT WITHIN 25 NM>
I verify that <student name> has received the required training of 61.93. I have determined that they are proficient to practice solo takeoffs and landings at <Airport Code(s) Here>, subject to the following conditions <viz/ceiling/wind limitation information>.

If someone gives this signoff are they asserting they've determined you're proficient to practice at that airport, or are they asserting you're competent to operate there AND they've flown there w/you?

What is “the required training of 61.93.”

I don’t know what it said during your training years, but I have a feeling it wasn’t any different during mine 35 years ago. But I will check when I have a chance.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Should the endorsement be under 61.94 - Student Pilot Seeking Sport Pilot Certificate in Class B,C,D airspace?

I agree it’s 61.94. There are recommended forms for this in the AC. Two, actually. One for flight through; one for landing at.

Does it matter? It might. While these forms are not regulatory, they are “safe harbor’ (the FAA says they comply with the requirements). The FAA has been known to be picky about the degree of regulatory reference in endorsements.

 

[midlifeflyer]

What is “the required training of 61.93.”

I don’t know what it said during your training years, but I have a feeling it wasn’t any different during mine 35 years ago. But I will check when I have a chance.

It was different. The current requirement was written as part of the big 1997 Part 61 rewrite. Before that it said:

(b) Notwithstanding paragraph (a) of this section, an authorized flight instructor, certificated under this part, may permit the student to practice solo takeoffs and landings at another airport within 25 nautical miles from the airport at which the student receives instruction if the flight instructor—​

(1) Determines that the student pilot is competent and proficient to make those landings and takeoffs;​

(2) Has flown with that student prior to authorizing those takeoffs and landings; and​

(3) Endorses the student pilot’s logbook with an authorization to make those landings and takeoffs.​

Nothing specific about having to receive any training at the other airport. Nothing in the Final Rule discussing this particular change other than being a "clarification."

 

[Clip4]

You may only fly to airports within 25 nautical miles if your instructor has flown those routes with you. So, if you fly to one and then want to go to the other, you must have flown that route before with your instructor

I don’t believe (b) allows a 3 airport solo flight.

A student pilot must obtain an endorsement to make solo flights from the airport where the student pilot normally receives training to another location and must have received training that includes flight in both directions over the route. There is no provision for a solo flight from an airport the student is not normally receiving training to another airport.

(b) goes on to say the purpose of the flight is to practice takeoffs and landings at that other airport.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I don’t believe (b) allows a 3 airport solo flight.

A student pilot must obtain an endorsement to make solo flights from the airport where the student pilot normally receives training to another location and must have received training that includes flight in both directions over the route. There is no provision for a solo flight from an airport the student is not normally receiving training to another airport.

(b) goes on to say the purpose of the flight is to practice takeoffs and landings at that other airport.

I think you are correct. Looks like we are mixing up three or four separate and distinct requirements.

1. The 61.94 requirement for sport student endorsements for communication-required airports and airspace @N918KT was asking about.​

2. The 61.93(b)(1) provision for an endorsement permitting repeated flights to a specific airport within 25 NM of the training airport for the purpose of practicing takeoffs and ladings.​

3. The 61.91(b)(2) provision for an endorsement permitting repeated flights to a specific airport within 50 NM of the training airport. That's the one that is typically used when the student owns the airplane and the airplane's home base is different than the training airport.​

4. The 61.91(c) individual flight cross country endorsement.​

Also another related question but is it possible I could fly to two airports within 25 nm of my home airport as long as all airports are listed in my initial <25 nm endorsement Part 61.93(b)(1)? For example, I fly from airport A my home airport to airport B, then airport C and then back to airport A and both airports B and C are within 25 nm from airport A. My CFI said it should be okay.

I don't agree with the CFI. They may be right, but I read 61.93(b) as limited to flights between training base and another specified airport. Once we get out of that realm, we're in 61.93(c) territory.

 

[Clip4]

I think you are correct. Looks like we are mixing up three or four separate and distinct requirements.

1. The 61.94 requirement for sport student endorsements for communication-required airports and airspace @N918KT was asking about.​

2. The 61.93(b)(1) provision for an endorsement permitting repeated flights to a specific airport within 25 NM of the training airport for the purpose of practicing takeoffs and ladings.​

3. The 61.91(b)(2) provision for an endorsement permitting repeated flights to a specific airport within 50 NM of the training airport. That's the one that is typically used when the student owns the airplane and the airplane's home base is different than the training airport.​

4. The 61.91(c) individual flight cross country endorsement.​

I don't agree with the CFI. They may be right, but I read 61.93(b) as limited to flights between training base and another specified airport. Once we get out of that realm, we're in 61.93(c) territory.

And if one reads AC61.65H at 20.8, it clearly states “at an airport” within 25 NM, not airports within 25 nm.

 

[midlifeflyer]

And if one reads AC61.65H at 20.8, it clearly states “at an airport” within 25 NM, not airports within 25 nm.

That might be a separate question. I don’t see a problem with, for example, two endorsements each covering a different remote airport. But it still between training airport and each not between the remote ones.

[Thoughtful Pause …]

I had a feeling just after writing this, so I checked my first logbook. I had 61.93(b)(1) endorsements for three different airports.