Student signed off for, but never...

EdFred

EdFred

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...soloed.

I am getting a student that was signed off by another instructor for initial solo in a PA28-161 at an airport a few states away. Due to weather and other circumstances the student never got around to soloing before moving. The student will be resuming training with me in a PA28-180. The student's initial 90 day solo endorsement is still valid.

How much of 61.87 would you make the student repeat?
 
I’m not a cfi, but time between prior signoff and now seems relevant.
 
EdFred said:
...soloed.

I am getting a student that was signed off by another instructor for initial solo in a PA28-161 at an airport a few states away. Due to weather and other circumstances the student never got around to soloing before moving. The student will be resuming training with me in a PA28-180. The student's initial 90 day solo endorsement is still valid.

How much of 61.87 would you make the student repeat?
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SFDukie said:
I’m not a cfi, but time between prior signoff and now seems relevant.
Click to expand...


Ummmmmm....
 
EdFred said:
...soloed.

I am getting a student that was signed off by another instructor for initial solo in a PA28-161 at an airport a few states away. Due to weather and other circumstances the student never got around to soloing before moving. The student will be resuming training with me in a PA28-180. The student's initial 90 day solo endorsement is still valid.

How much of 61.87 would you make the student repeat?
Click to expand...

In my opinion all of it.
 
In addition to 61.87, we have 61.195(d) which says, "A flight instructor may not endorse a... Student pilot's logbook for solo flight privileges, unless that flight instructor has.. Given that student the flight training required for solo flight privileges required by this part."

I guess can argue over whether the "the" means the whole shebang or just enough of it to be satisfied, but I wouldn't want argue the point after a student has an accident. If I were picking up a student, pre-solo or post, I'd at least do what amounts to a solo stage check that covers 61.87. There's really not much there which isn't covered in the shortest 1-hour checkout or flight review, so it wouldn't take that long if the student is solo-ready. And it gives me a handle on where the strong and weak point are.
 
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He isn’t getting a solo endorsement from me until I am satisfied with his proficiency and I have seen maneuvers, stalls, unusual att recov, sim engine fail, ground ref, all landing types etc. if he is good, you can knock that out in 1-2 sessions.

what does the school/rental agreement require? Probably cannot solo with his existing endorsement until passing a cfi checkout at new location.
 
As much as you feel comfortable with, Ed. It partly depends on how long ago it was done. But if it were me, I would review pretty much all of it.
 
midlifeflyer said:
In addition to 61.87, we have 61.195(d) which says, "A flight instructor may not endorse a... Student pilot's logbook for solo flight privileges, unless that flight instructor has.. Given that student the flight training required for solo flight privileges required by this part."
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An instructor DID endorse for solo, Mark. It just wasn’t Ed. Does that mean the endorsement is no longer valid because some time has passed?

From a strictly plain language interpretation, it would seem the prior endorsement is still valid and it is up to Ed to decide what he is comfortable with.

As to the rest of your post, I agree whole heartedly.
 
How tough would it be to explain to his family why you didn't catch something? Ahole question I know, but....
 
Not a CFI, working towards it. I’m not familiar with the relevant differences between the -161 and the -180, but tip towards retaking the aeronautical knowledge test since 61.87 (b) (iii) addresses make and model. Para (c) also references make and model, so likely a flight or two to check that block as well.

The 2A13 TCDS does refer to the PA-28-161 as a different model than the -180. POH vs AFM among other things.

Likely not starting from scratch.
 
PaulS said:
How tough would it be to explain to his family why you didn't catch something? Ahole question I know, but....
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I would probably end up getting served divorce papers.

*****

I am probably going to treat it like a flight review with extra emphasis on the differences in the airport and since the 180 won't have GPS and the 161 did getting back to the airport in case he gets turned around. I am probably going to skip the knowledge test since I was signed off for 3 different aircraft and didn't take a test for each one, just my initial solo. Oh, and going to tell the TSA **** you again because, well, I'm married to his mom and know she's a US citizen.

TCABM said:
Not a CFI, working towards it. I’m not familiar with the relevant differences between the -161 and the -180, but tip towards retaking the aeronautical knowledge test since 61.87 (b) (iii) addresses make and model. Para (c) also references make and model, so likely a flight or two to check that block as well.

The 2A13 TCDS does refer to the PA-28-161 as a different model than the -180. POH vs AFM among other things.

Likely not starting from scratch.
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I have a bunch of time in both, and the differences are as far as I am concerned, non-existent.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
An instructor DID endorse for solo, Mark. It just wasn’t Ed. Does that mean the endorsement is no longer valid because some time has passed?

From a strictly plain language interpretation, it would seem the prior endorsement is still valid and it is up to Ed to decide what he is comfortable with.

As to the rest of your post, I agree whole heartedly.
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It doesn’t invalidate the first endorsement…if the student wants to fly solo based on that endorsement, the question becomes moot.

but if Ed is going to allow solo privileges, it’s probably going to involve a logbook endorsement. If it does, the reg says he can’t do it “unless that flight instructor has.. Given that student theflight training required for solo flightprivileges required by this part."
 
Greg Bockelman said:
An instructor DID endorse for solo, Mark. It just wasn’t Ed. Does that mean the endorsement is no longer valid because some time has passed?

From a strictly plain language interpretation, it would seem the prior endorsement is still valid and it is up to Ed to decide what he is comfortable with.

As to the rest of your post, I agree whole heartedly.
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I agree the prior endorsement is valid. But if I'm the instructor now taking responsibility for the student, I'm not necessarily going to rely on that. Besides, I'll need to do it anyway when the 90-day does expire.
 
MauleSkinner said:
but if Ed is going to allow solo privileges, it’s probably going to involve a logbook endorsement. If it does, the reg says he can’t do it “unless that flight instructor has.. Given that student theflight training required for solo flightprivileges required by this part."
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Why does that part have to be done AGAIN by Ed? Why can’t Ed fly with the student enough to satisfy himself that the student meets the requirements of the solo endorsement, sign the logbook for dual given, and the student fly on based on the prior instructor’s still valid endorsement?

BTW, this is more or less an academic discussion because what I would really do in this situation is not necessarily what I am suggesting here. But then again…

Devil/Details.
 
EdFred said:
I would probably end up getting served divorce papers.

*****

I am probably going to treat it like a flight review with extra emphasis on the differences in the airport and since the 180 won't have GPS and the 161 did getting back to the airport in case he gets turned around. I am probably going to skip the knowledge test since I was signed off for 3 different aircraft and didn't take a test for each one, just my initial solo. Oh, and going to tell the TSA **** you again because, well, I'm married to his mom and know she's a US citizen.



I have a bunch of time in both, and the differences are as far as I am concerned, non-existent.
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Knowing him must make it easier to decide. Tell him to git er done!
 
I'm kind of curious how you end up with a solo endorsement, but no solo. My instructor signed me off for mine right before I walked out to the plane.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Given that student the flight training required for solo flight privileges required by this part."
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I am not going to send them solo until I have flown with them and reviewed everything in FAR 61.87(d). And I am going have him provide another pre-solo test specifically for the PA28-180, and I will sign him off specifically for the PA28-180. If he is sharp we can pretty much cover everything in FAR 61.87(d) in one flight, most likely I am going to do a minimum of 3 flights with him so he can demonstrate consistency to me, But I might use the additional flights to start introducing him to new topics, night flying, or pre-cross country planning and cross country cockpit management.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

FAR 61.87(d)
Maneuvers and procedures for pre-solo flight training in a single-engine airplane. A student pilot who is receiving training for a single-engine airplane rating or privileges must receive and log flight training for the following maneuvers and procedures:

(1) Proper flight preparation procedures, including preflight planning and preparation, powerplant operation, and aircraft systems;

(2) Taxiing or surface operations, including runups;

(3) Takeoffs and landings, including normal and crosswind;

(4) Straight and level flight, and turns in both directions;

(5) Climbs and climbing turns;

(6) Airport traffic patterns, including entry and departure procedures;

(7) Collision avoidance, windshear avoidance, and wake turbulence avoidance;

(8) Descents, with and without turns, using high and low drag configurations;

(9) Flight at various airspeeds from cruise to slow flight;

(10) Stall entries from various flight attitudes and power combinations with recovery initiated at the first indication of a stall, and recovery from a full stall;

(11) Emergency procedures and equipment malfunctions;

(12) Ground reference maneuvers;

(13) Approaches to a landing area with simulated engine malfunctions;

(14) Slips to a landing; and

(15) Go-arounds.
 
Ed, I actually would give him another presolo written because not only is it specific to the airplane, it must be specific to the airport for airspace and procedures.
 
Jim K said:
I'm kind of curious how you end up with a solo endorsement, but no solo. My instructor signed me off for mine right before I walked out to the plane.
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Because FIT has a complete dog**** flight program. We will tell ya about it at 6Y9. It is run so bad it's not even funny.
 
Dave Theisen said:
Ed, I actually would give him another presolo written because not only is it specific to the airplane, it must be specific to the airport for airspace and procedures.
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Say I have a flight school at operates out of two airports do I need to pre solo test everybody twice that I solo out of both airports? Because what I do when I freelance is sign you off at another another airport and sign you off to fly out of that airport but not another Knowledge Test.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Why does that part have to be done AGAIN by Ed? Why can’t Ed fly with the student enough to satisfy himself that the student meets the requirements of the solo endorsement, sign the logbook for dual given, and the student fly on based on the prior instructor’s still valid endorsement?

BTW, this is more or less an academic discussion because what I would really do in this situation is not necessarily what I am suggesting here. But then again…

Devil/Details.
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That would be the first part of my post…if the student is going to fly on the previous endorsement, no signoff is necessary.
 
EdFred said:
Say I have a flight school at operates out of two airports do I need to pre solo test everybody twice that I solo out of both airports? Because what I do when I freelance is sign you off at another another airport and sign you off to fly out of that airport but not another Knowledge Test.
Click to expand...
That's a real good question. I have no idea what the FAA would say and I can see it both ways. Personally, I would not bother with repeating already answered questions about the airplane and Parts 61 and 91, but I could probably find a few things different about the "Airspace rules and procedures for the airport where the solo flight will be performed" to have them answer those for the new base.
 
When I inherited students I would make sure I touched all of the requirements for solo before I gave them a solo endorsement.

the regulations require it to be that way.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
When I inherited students I would make sure I touched all of the requirements for solo before I gave them a solo endorsement.

the regulations require it to be that way.
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Including knowledge test?
 
midlifeflyer said:
That's a real good question. I have no idea what the FAA would say and I can see it both ways. Personally, I would not bother with repeating already answered questions about the airplane and Parts 61 and 91, but I could probably find a few things different about the "Airspace rules and procedures for the airport where the solo flight will be performed" to have them answer those for the new base.
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I had a student that kept his plane at an airport that got closed down. He moved the plane to another airport. I did not give him a new knowledge test. Just listed the new airport as one of the airports he was allowed to fly to under the endorsement. Yes I flew with him out of that airport first.
 
EdFred said:
I would probably end up getting served divorce papers.

*****

I am probably going to treat it like a flight review with extra emphasis on the differences in the airport and since the 180 won't have GPS and the 161 did getting back to the airport in case he gets turned around. I am probably going to skip the knowledge test since I was signed off for 3 different aircraft and didn't take a test for each one, just my initial solo. Oh, and going to tell the TSA **** you again because, well, I'm married to his mom and know she's a US citizen.



I have a bunch of time in both, and the differences are as far as I am concerned, non-existent.
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...except one glides like a brick.
 
Well I don’t fly one anymore but my 181 glides MUCh better than the 180 I used to fly. Great planes, not good gliders IMO
 
texasclouds said:
He isn’t getting a solo endorsement from me until I am satisfied with his proficiency and I have seen maneuvers, stalls, unusual att recov, sim engine fail, ground ref, all landing types etc. if he is good, you can knock that out in 1-2 sessions.
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Agreed.

He has done all the requirements, so do not have to do EVERYTHING, but enough to be comfortable with signing them off. Maybe one flight. Maybe more.

I had an instructor that just did not seem to want to sign anyone off for solo. He knew he was leaving that school. New instructor came on. We flew once. Second flight he soloed me. He was comfortable with doing so after one flight.
 
We have six primary instructors, and we all fly with each other's students from time to time. Not long ago, I soloed a student who was not on my list, though I had provided some of his presolo training. We require a presolo evaluation flight with one of the senior instructors (holding up my hand here) that reviews the maneuvers, but I don't remember if I did stalls with this person before I endorsed him for initial solo.

In EdFred's example, I'd spend an hour or so reviewing all the maneuvers and then I'd be comfortable with solo if performance met standards.
 
Jim K said:
I'm kind of curious how you end up with a solo endorsement, but no solo. My instructor signed me off for mine right before I walked out to the plane.
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I usually fill out the limitations and do the signature and date after spending some time in the pattern together getting a few satisfactory landings. The student taxis back in and I sign and get out.
 
(p) Limitations on flight instructors authorizing solo flight. No instructor may authorize a student pilot to perform a solo flight unless that instructor has—

(1) Given that student pilot training in the make and model of aircraftor a similar make and model of aircraft in which the solo flight is to be flown;

(2) Determined the student pilot is proficient in the maneuvers and procedures prescribed in this section;

(3) Determined the student pilot is proficient in the make and model of aircraft to be flown; and

(4) Endorsed the student pilot's logbook for the specific make and model aircraft to be flown, and that endorsement remains current for solo flight privileges, provided an authorized instructor updates the student's logbook every 90 days thereafter

I would log additional training in the 180 and log you evaluated all the 61.87(d) list. There really not much there and you can combine tasks.


(1) Proper flight preparation procedures, including preflight planning and preparation, powerplant operation, and aircraft systems;

(2) Taxiing or surface operations, including runups;

(3) Takeoffs and landings, including normal and crosswind;

(4) Straight and level flight, and turns in both directions;

(5) Climbs and climbing turns;

(6) Airport traffic patterns, including entry and departure procedures;

(7) Collision avoidance, windshear avoidance, and wake turbulence avoidance;

(8) Descents, with and without turns, using high and low drag configurations;

(9) Flight at various airspeeds from cruise to slow flight;

(10) Stall entries from various flight attitudes and power combinations with recovery initiated at the first indication of a stall, and recovery from a full stall;

(11) Emergency procedures and equipment malfunctions;

(12) Ground reference maneuvers;

(13) Approaches to a landing area with simulated engine malfunctions;

(14) Slips to a landing; and

(15) Go-arounds.
 
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I always endorsed the certificate as I got out of the plane for them to take around the pattern.
 
…going from a long-wing Warrior to a Hershey bar 180, I’d make sure to do some stalls and pattern work (which, of course, you will do or more likely already have done).

And, make certain he’s reasonably comfy with the window-crank trim.
 
SCCutler said:
…going from a long-wing Warrior to a Hershey bar 180, I’d make sure to do some stalls and pattern work (which, of course, you will do or more likely already have done).

And, make certain he’s reasonably comfy with the window-crank trim.
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1972 model. Has wheel trim between seats. He's also already flown the Comanche with the overhead trim. Waiting on the 180 to come out of annual.
 
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