Student pilot landing at OSH during show? Allowed?

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Re: Student Solo at Airventure

Hocky said:
And why is that? If that were true then they would have a minimum hour requirement or special training needed.
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Look, if you have your P-ASEL in time, then nobody's going to stop you.

And, in all likelihood, you'll make the trip just fine. The "special training", aside from becoming throughly aware of the NOTAMS, is ideally more PIC hours under your belt after earning your certification, be it with a CFI, other pilots or just you enjoying the new privileges that come with it.

For that one week in the Summer, Oshkosh has been given the distinction of being the busiest airport in the world with roughly 25,000 plane movements. That's far more than Heathrow, Atlanta, O'Hare JFK, and LAX.

The controllers there volunteer for the week and come from all over America, coming from some of the busiest ATC facilities in the nation. The instructions that they give are lightning fast and they have no time for "say again...." from a newly minted pilot.
 
JB1842 said:
It's a big deal when you get people flying in who didn't read the NOTAM, the people who can't understand the NOTAM, or the people who think the NOTAM doesn't apply to them.
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...or the people who don't fly well enough to follow the NOTAM procedures accurately while scanning for other airplanes and then land with precision on the colored dot.

If you've never done that arrival procedure, you cannot fully appreciate the beehive swarm of airplanes there around RIPON, or what it takes to join the flow and complete the arrival safely. Every year there is a pile of scary stories about near-misses and near-disasters. While it's not impossible for an inexperienced pilot to fly this arrival solo the first time, it sure does help to have ridden along with someone else before, or at least to have another pilot in the airplane to help with navigating and spotting traffic. Thinking to my own flying abilities the week after I got my PPL in 1970, I can't imagine that I could have done that safely all by myself.
 
Hocky said:
How about ultralights? No rule against a student bringing one of those in is there?
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Yes, there is. In fact, there is a rule against even an ATP flying an ultralight into OSH:
Sec. 103.17

Operations in certain airspace.

No person may operate an ultralight vehicle within Class A, Class B, Class C, or Class D airspace or within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport unless that person has prior authorization from the ATC facility having jurisdiction over that airspace.
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...and I guarantee no Student Pilot is going to get that "prior authorization".
 
SkyHog said:
While I never did a solo that spanned multiple days, I'm curious where this rule is written? I've heard some claim that a return flight same day requires the same, which I believe was not true either - is there actually a limit on the length between legs, or is this just one of those "walks like a duck" moments in the FAA's eyes?
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Case law on point -- Administrator v. Blair. The required review and endorsement by the CFI cannot occur before the Student Pilot has obtained and analyzed the current weather.
 
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SkyHog said:
That doesn't really answer the question - there's nothing in there about same-day solos vs. multi day solos.
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Read it again and tell me how everything is supposed to be accomplished 8 days prior to the flight?
 
EdFred said:
Read it again and tell me how everything is supposed to be accomplished 8 days prior to the flight?
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Provided case law aside, that's easy:

Fly into an airport in the middle of the Arizona Desert on day one, then 8 days later, leave. I guarantee you that everything is exactly the same as it was when the first flight happened, so the flight plan is valid.

Unless you want to argue that checking notams right before flight is a must, in which case I'd argue that in that case, any solo flight is illegal since they can change while taxiing out.
 
A student pilot is by definition learning to fly an airplane, a rather daunting task. Why one would want to add into it NOTAMS, heavy traffic, and possible conflicts is beyond me. Most landings at Osh go pretty smoothly, but things can get dicey pretty quickly. Why not grab a CFI and make the flight? Can't imagine too many CFIs would object to being paid to fly into the show.

What's the big hurry anyway. Airventure is huge, is isn't going away next week. There will be other opportunities.
 
SkyHog said:
Provided case law aside, that's easy:

Fly into an airport in the middle of the Arizona Desert on day one, then 8 days later, leave. I guarantee you that everything is exactly the same as it was when the first flight happened, so the flight plan is valid.

Unless you want to argue that checking notams right before flight is a must, in which case I'd argue that in that case, any solo flight is illegal since they can change while taxiing out.
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Really? The temperature and dew point NEVER change, ever, in Arizona? I'll put up my house against your house that in 8 days, at some point, there will be a delta. That aside, what TAFs and FAs go 8 days out?
 
SkyHog said:
Provided case law aside, that's easy:

Fly into an airport in the middle of the Arizona Desert on day one, then 8 days later, leave. I guarantee you that everything is exactly the same as it was when the first flight happened, so the flight plan is valid.
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Your "guarantee" is not the same as "all available information" per 91.103 -- even if the local weather doesn't change, the NOTAMs and winds aloft could.

Unless you want to argue that checking notams right before flight is a must, in which case I'd argue that in that case, any solo flight is illegal since they can change while taxiing out.
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That argument won't fly before the FAA. The requirement is to check before flight, and the flight begins when the airplane moves under its own power. Also, see the discussion about this in Administrator v. Ferguson:

For example, in analyzing respondent's conduct, the law judge specifically discussed respondent's testimony that he believed that the information he had obtained at 5:00 a.m. [for a takeoff at 8:28am] satisfied the requirements of the regulation. The law judge rejected this explanation because he​
ruled, as a legal conclusion, that a pre-flight was necessary before each operation.​
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...with emphasis on "before", although in that case, the pilot was held responsible for knowing about a NOTAM issued 22 minutes before takeoff. Of course, if you read between the lines, the FSDO was out to get that guy, and I doubt many people who got a proper briefing before walking out to the plane would be held responsible for a NOTAM issued while they were walking out.
 
Ron Levy said:
Yes, there is. In fact, there is a rule against even an ATP flying an ultralight into OSH:
...and I guarantee no Student Pilot is going to get that "prior authorization".
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I thought this too initially upon reading FAR 103 after the OP's question about ultralights.

Specifically 103.7 Certification and Registration
...pilots of ultralight vehicles, as defined in this Part, will not be required to possess FAA pilot certificates or airman medical certificates.

So, Hockey's student credentials are only applicable to his pursuit of his ASEL at the moment. If he were to go out and learn to fly an ultralight, which adheres to all the FAR 103 regs, he would be legal to fly it within the confines of those stipulations even while he's pursuing his P-ASEL. I see the two as mutually exclusive.

As for flying into Oshkosh, there are established ultralight rules in the NOTAM that ultralight pilots can and will use. So, technically he's legally allowed to fly an ultralight there. Still not saying it's the best idea for an inexperienced aviator, but regs don't mandate a level of personal judgement.
 
Ron Levy said:
...or the people who don't fly well enough to follow the NOTAM procedures accurately while scanning for other airplanes and then land with precision on the colored dot.

If you've never done that arrival procedure, you cannot fully appreciate the beehive swarm of airplanes there around RIPON, or what it takes to join the flow and complete the arrival safely. Every year there is a pile of scary stories about near-misses and near-disasters. While it's not impossible for an inexperienced pilot to fly this arrival solo the first time, it sure does help to have ridden along with someone else before, or at least to have another pilot in the airplane to help with navigating and spotting traffic. Thinking to my own flying abilities the week after I got my PPL in 1970, I can't imagine that I could have done that safely all by myself.
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Excellent points. I will (finally) have my private done in the next few weeks. I'm lucky that my home field is 40 miles due south of Oshkosh. My plan is to call the OSH tower, see when they are least busy, and ask them to let me fly the Ripon approach a few times sometime in the weeks before the show begins. Not sure of that is possible, but it won't hurt to ask. Even then, I'm still going to try to find a volunteer to sit right seat with me.
 
Ron Levy said:
Yes, there is. In fact, there is a rule against even an ATP flying an ultralight into OSH:
...and I guarantee no Student Pilot is going to get that "prior authorization".
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You mean all those ultralight pilots coming into OSH are getting explicit permission one-by-one from ATC?

:hairraise:
 
deltaindia said:
I thought this too initially upon reading FAR 103 after the OP's question about ultralights.

Specifically 103.7 Certification and Registration
...pilots of ultralight vehicles, as defined in this Part, will not be required to possess FAA pilot certificates or airman medical certificates.

So, Hockey's student credentials are only applicable to his pursuit of his ASEL at the moment. If he were to go out and learn to fly an ultralight, which adheres to all the FAR 103 regs, he would be legal to fly it within the confines of those stipulations even while he's pursuing his P-ASEL. I see the two as mutually exclusive.

As for flying into Oshkosh, there are established ultralight rules in the NOTAM that ultralight pilots can and will use. So, technically he's legally allowed to fly an ultralight there. Still not saying it's the best idea for an inexperienced aviator, but regs don't mandate a level of personal judgement.
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NOBODY is allowed to fly an ultralight in there without official approval:

The procedure may be used from 9:00 AM to 6:30 PM CDT only after receiving approval from the EAA Ultralight Barn (920-230-7759).
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...and I don't see that as forthcoming for a Student Pilot or someone who holds no pilot certificate, but I could be wrong.
 
Hocky said:
You mean all those ultralight pilots coming into OSH are getting explicit permission one-by-one from ATC?

:hairraise:
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Not directly from ATC, but yes, all ultralights flying in during AirVenture are getting explicit permission one-by-one before arrival as described in the NOTAM (or they will be in serious hot water when they arrive).
 
JB1842 said:
Excellent points. I will (finally) have my private done in the next few weeks. I'm lucky that my home field is 40 miles due south of Oshkosh. My plan is to call the OSH tower, see when they are least busy, and ask them to let me fly the Ripon approach a few times sometime in the weeks before the show begins. Not sure of that is possible, but it won't hurt to ask. Even then, I'm still going to try to find a volunteer to sit right seat with me.
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Josh! You've walked into the wrong room! You're in MORTAL danger, get out while you can!!! Soon you will be told how reckless you are and how DARE you want to fly to Oshkosh with your puny PPL and a mere 76 hours!

Get out quickly!

:rolleyes:
 
Ron Levy said:
Yes, there is. In fact, there is a rule against even an ATP flying an ultralight into OSH
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Ron Levy said:
NOBODY is allowed to fly an ultralight in there without official approval:
...and I don't see that as forthcoming for a Student Pilot or someone who holds no pilot certificate, but I could be wrong.
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I was only pointing out that, yes, there are rules (per the NOTAM) that DO allow pilots, even ATP's, to fly into Oshkosh in an Ultralight when you flat out commented in post #44 that "there is a rule against flying an ultralight into OSH", which is not an accurate statement at all.

Not having called the Ultralight barn myself in the past, however, I have no idea what kinds of credentials they require of people asking for approval. If it's an ultralight pilot, there is no FAA certificate, and no FAA medical. Hockey wouldn't be obligated to tell them he's a student pilot of a completely different type of aircraft.

Again, not saying it's a great idea for a new aviator...but it's legal and we should at least be acknolwedging that there are avenues for OP to pursue if he's not P-ASEL rated but still would like to take advantage of ultralight flying and Oshkosh together....
 
Hocky said:
Josh! You've walked into the wrong room! You're in MORTAL danger, get out while you can!!! Soon you will be told how reckless you are and how DARE you want to fly to Oshkosh with your puny PPL and a mere 76 hours!

Get out quickly!

:rolleyes:
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Unlike others, I'm not under-estimating the seriousness of the task. And I've flown into OSH before, but not during the show. I've also been a Sport Pilot for going on 2 years, so I'm not a new/student pilot, per se.
 
JB1842 said:
Unlike others, I'm not under-estimating the seriousness of the task. I've flown into OSH before, but not during the show.
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I'm not under estimating the seriousness of the task at all. I've already memorized the VFR procedures going in two months before the event which is a lot better than many other pilots who go in. I've heard them on the radio. Some of them have clearly never read the NOTAM. Some of them just plain ignore the instructions or won't shut up on frequency.

What I was saying is that assuming I have my certificate which proves I can fly VFR hold altitude and direction, avoid other planes then do a short field landing, that the actual VFR arrival procedure does not seem all that complicated.

That is all.
 
Hocky said:
What I was saying is that assuming I have my certificate which proves I can fly VFR hold altitude and direction, avoid other planes then do a short field landing, that the actual VFR arrival procedure does not seem all that complicated.
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Your initial post asked if it was ok to go in as a student. When told you need to be at least private rated, you inquired how they verify this. Odd questions, but nonetheless the answer was clear from around the 2nd or 3rd post in this thread that you need to be at least private rated.

Or, of course, going in an ultralight.....
 
Hocky said:
I'm not under estimating the seriousness of the task at all. I've already memorized the VFR procedures going in two months before the event which is a lot better than many other pilots who go in. I've heard them on the radio. Some of them have clearly never read the NOTAM. Some of them just plain ignore the instructions or won't shut up on frequency.

What I was saying is that assuming I have my certificate which proves I can fly VFR hold altitude and direction, avoid other planes then do a short field landing, that the actual VFR arrival procedure does not seem all that complicated.

That is all.
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Complicated? Not so much. But add in the human factor and all bets are off. There are incidents every year with very experienced pilots.
 
deltaindia said:
Your initial post asked if it was ok to go in as a student. When told you need to be at least private rated, you inquired how they verify this. Odd questions, but nonetheless the answer was clear from around the 2nd or 3rd post in this thread that you need to be at least private rated.

Or, of course, going in an ultralight.....
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First choice is to go as a newly minted PPL...

I'm making contingency plans in case that doesn't happen. I missed the part in the NOTAM where it said student pilots not allowed. Kind of sucks but I understand the logic behind that (not all students are as capable as me :D ).

Bottom line is I have to get this PPL. I'm really close and have been flying three times a week now. Just got to "get 'er done!"
 
Hocky said:
Kind of sucks but I understand the logic behind that (not all students are as capable as me!"
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Remind us how many hours you have? Go and read the accident reports from OSH, then read the part that lists the hours people had at the time.......you may realize that its not as easy as you think.
 
Hocky said:
First choice is to go as a newly minted PPL...

I'm making contingency plans in case that doesn't happen. I missed the part in the NOTAM where it said student pilots not allowed. Kind of sucks but I understand the logic behind that (not all students are as capable as me :D ).

Bottom line is I have to get this PPL. I'm really close and have been flying three times a week now. Just got to "get 'er done!"
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Just a suggestion... No one knows your abilities better than your instructor. Ask them what they think about you doing this solo. If they feel you have the abilities to do this safely I am assuming they would say so. If they do not, I would listen (they may even offer up to go with you). Most instructors are going to be honest with you. This is worth a discussion before you plan to go. Listen to what they say.

The single best lesson I was taught in my training is you never have to be anywhere, and driving / commercial air are always options.
 
Ron Levy said:
...and I don't see that as forthcoming for a Student Pilot or someone who holds no pilot certificate, but I could be wrong.
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Please excuse my ignorance, but last I knew, no certificate at all was required for a part 103 ultralight. So what does PP or ATP or anything else have to do with it? Are you saying that the rules suddenly change when you have a certificate?

--- Edit Edit Edit ---

I misread part of your post.

So what you are saying is that even though no certificate is needed to fly a part 103 ultralight, Special Permission won't be granted UNLESS the ultralight pilot holds at least a PPC? What is your basis for that opinion?
 
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This time around, are you going to record your checkride? Last time it didn't go too well did it?
 
Just curious; you mentioned you go to a 141 school, which one? If you are far from Oshkosh it may be difficult to find a club that will rent a week long trip out. Another consideration is that many clubs and schools which do allow overnights have a minimum hours charge per day regardless of how much you fly the plane while it is in your custody.
 
Apache123 said:
Just curious; you mentioned you go to a 141 school, which one? If you are far from Oshkosh it may be difficult to find a club that will rent a week long trip out. Another consideration is that many clubs and schools which do allow overnights have a minimum hours charge per day regardless of how much you fly the plane while it is in your custody.
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The school has a whole fleet of 172s and an online booking system. I've already booked a 172 for five days, it's on the schedule. Only screw up could be if that particular plane is suddenly out of commission (it happens) right when I need it but even so I could probably ask them to consolidate the other rentals and free up one of the planes. Yes there is a daily minimum. I'd probably go for three days only to keep the cost down with two of those days for travelling. It's a big school. Full of crappy CFI's. That's the only downside. I think they pay very little but can pretty much guarantee a lot of hours to the CFI's so it attracts the time building crowd if you know what I mean. Lots of turnover as CFI's escape to better opportunities then they get the next batch of low time airline pilot wannebes who seem to hate the job.

Come to think of it why am I staying with them??? Well I like the large fleet they have. I can always get a rental and always suit myself timewise. Just got to teach myself that is all while whichever bozo of the week babysits me.
 
I would respect that they have more experience and have seen and done things you have not thought of. No matter how bad you think the CFI is they have done and seen things that you can learn from. However you would have to be willing first.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 
Hocky said:
Please don't let this degrade into a lecture about how I should not be going, I need to know my place and accept my wormlike status, I'm going to kill myself, etc, etc. Please just answer the question if you know the answer.

Is it legal for a student pilot to go to OSH solo during the show? I looked through the NOTAM but didn't see anything. Someone told me it is not allowed.
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If you wind up going, arrive in the early morning. It is not as busy.:goofy:
 
deltaindia said:
I was only pointing out that, yes, there are rules (per the NOTAM) that DO allow pilots, even ATP's, to fly into Oshkosh in an Ultralight when you flat out commented in post #44 that "there is a rule against flying an ultralight into OSH", which is not an accurate statement at all.
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When you take that statement out of context (as you did), then yes, that would not be an accurate statement, but I did mention the "prior authorization" in that same post.
Not having called the Ultralight barn myself in the past, however, I have no idea what kinds of credentials they require of people asking for approval. If it's an ultralight pilot, there is no FAA certificate, and no FAA medical. Hockey wouldn't be obligated to tell them he's a student pilot of a completely different type of aircraft.
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And they wouldn't be obligated to grant that authorization, either, unless the caller convinced them s/he knew what s/he was doing, which based on Hocky's posts, I do not think he would be able to do. I sincerely doubt that merely saying you are a Student Pilot would do much to convince them you could safely execute the arrival and operate an ultralight in their airspace.
 
Hocky said:
I think they pay very little but can pretty much guarantee a lot of hours to the CFI's so it attracts the time building crowd if you know what I mean. Lots of turnover as CFI's escape to better opportunities then they get the next batch of low time airline pilot wannebes who seem to hate the job.
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That whole model will change now that aspiring airline pilots need to have an ATP (1500 hours minimum) to be qualified for an interview with a regional. Until a year or so ago, young CFI's with a few hundred hours were eligible to jump ship.

The CFI turnover may go down a bit since the existing crop can't advance unless they want to fly part 135 charters.
 
Hocky said:
I'm making contingency plans in case that doesn't happen. I missed the part in the NOTAM where it said student pilots not allowed.
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That's not all you missed in the NOTAM, and based on that and other posts of yours, I get the impression that "attention to detail" is not your strongest suit. That's one of the reasons I did not think you'd do real well trying to fly the FISK arrival solo in the middle of 200 other planes doing the same thing at the same time until you build a lot more experience. There will be more than a few folks doing it wrong, and you have to really watch your six (and your nine, three and twelve, too) for them as well as all the other folks doing it right.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Please excuse my ignorance, but last I knew, no certificate at all was required for a part 103 ultralight. So what does PP or ATP or anything else have to do with it? Are you saying that the rules suddenly change when you have a certificate?

--- Edit Edit Edit ---

I misread part of your post.

So what you are saying is that even though no certificate is needed to fly a part 103 ultralight, Special Permission won't be granted UNLESS the ultralight pilot holds at least a PPC?
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I didn't intend to say that, but if you don't hold a pilot certificate, I'd expect them to ascertain that you have significant ultralight flying experience including operating in high density areas and/or tower-controlled airspace before granting that authorization, and clearly Hocky doesn't have that.
 
Just a personal preference of mine but I would fly with someone who has been there a few times for my own safety. Sure I'm a PP but I don't want to bite off more then I can chew.

Hopefully you'll swallow your pride and do the same thing.
 
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