Student needs help with pilotage

N6399A

N6399A

Pre-takeoff checklist
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N6399A
I need a little help. My CFI and I are planning a XC on Tuesday. The route is DVT to Blithe to Parker and back to DVT. My CFI wants to first 2 legs to be pilotage only. He wants a couple of visual checkpoints selected for ground speed calculation. Now the Blithe to Parker leg is pretty easy, thanks to the river. But, the Phoenix to Blithe leg is giving me problems. If I were already a pilot, on a XC in unfamiliar territory, and there was an Interstate that went directly from point A to point B and nothing else on the chart for visual checkpoints I would most definitely follow the Interstate. But for training purposes I’m sure he expects more from me than “Hey, we’re going to take the 101 to the 10 and the 10 to Blithe.” If anyone has flown this and knows of a less rudimentary route with some good visual checkpoints your help would be greatly appreciated. I’ve searched the sectional and flown the route on Google Earth and I’ve got nothin. Am I missing something? :dunno:
 
N6399A said:
I need a little help. My CFI and I are planning a XC on Tuesday. The route is DVT to Blithe to Parker and back to DVT. My CFI wants to first 2 legs to be pilotage only. He wants a couple of visual checkpoints selected for ground speed calculation. Now the Blithe to Parker leg is pretty easy, thanks to the river. But, the Phoenix to Blithe leg is giving me problems. If I were already a pilot, on a XC in unfamiliar territory, and there was an Interstate that went directly from point A to point B and nothing else on the chart for visual checkpoints I would most definitely follow the Interstate. But for training purposes I’m sure he expects more from me than “Hey, we’re going to take the 101 to the 10 and the 10 to Blithe.” If anyone has flown this and knows of a less rudimentary route with some good visual checkpoints your help would be greatly appreciated. I’ve searched the sectional and flown the route on Google Earth and I’ve got nothin. Am I missing something? :dunno:
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What you described is helicopter IFR -- I follow roads :D

What your CFI is probably expecting is for you to figure out your wind-corrected heading and ground speed, and then select checkpoints every 8-10 minutes or so to verify your position. So you'd be steering your computed heading and then timing yourself to the checkpoints. Make sure your checkpoints are real easy to see -- major highway, big river, big town, etc. -- they don't have to be directly on your course if they're big, for example a lake off the left wing, town off the right wing, etc.

You might want to get together with your CFI and plan this first one together -- my fixed-wing CFI did that although he (rightly) made me do all the calculations.
 
Don't get hung up on plotting a straight line course. Fly from landmark to landmark if you need to, even if you'll have a few course changes. Better to pick big, obvious landmarks that require a longer course with heading changes than to pick a straight line course with easily-missed landmarks, which could result in you getting OFF course without noticing in time.
 
You've got a number of private airports just out of the DVT airspace, you also have some geologic landmarks - Eagle Mtns and New Water Mts refuge. There's also Quartzite there off to your right, and by the time you pass Quartzite you can see Blythe and then the airport.

Out there, learning how to read the topo part of the chart is going to be mighty dang important, I would think!

Good luck on it - and you'll soon see why you do dual xc's before you go out there solo! :) You'll have fun! Really! :D
 
RotaryWingBob said:
What your CFI is probably expecting is for you to figure out your wind-corrected heading and ground speed, and then select checkpoints every 8-10 minutes or so to verify your position.
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That's DR -- what the OP described is indeed pilotage. Here are relevant definitions (emphasis added):

The art of piloting aircraft safely and accurately from one place to another by means of map-reading and the recognition of ground objects.
www.aeroplanemonthly.com/glossary/glossary_PQ.htm

Navigation by visual reference to landmarks
www.flightsimaviation.com/_glossaries.html

Pilotage is the use of fixed visual references on the ground or sea to guide oneself to a destination.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilotage

If his instructor wants pilotage, he can't get any more like it than “Hey, we’re going to take the 101 to the 10 and the 10 to Blithe (sic).”
 
Thanks guys................ I guess my thought was that once out of the Phoenix area and before Quarzite there really isn't anything. The geologic landmarks - Eagle Mtns and New Water Mts refuge don't really stand out from the rest of the terrain. They give them cute names but they are really just more desert and mole hills, nothing much to see.
 
Maybe I should just stay home until I learn to spell Blithe. BLYTHE BLYTHE BLYTHE
Watch................ I'll go out of my way to come up with checkpoints and my CFI will say "What's wrong the the highway that goes directly there?"
 
Thanks for the level of detail Ron..Those references excite me. We appreciate your efforts. Usually pilotage and DR fall together..Which is what Bob was referring to.
 
N6399A said:
Thanks guys................ I guess my thought was that once out of the Phoenix area and before Quarzite there really isn't anything. The geologic landmarks - Eagle Mtns and New Water Mts refuge don't really stand out from the rest of the terrain. They give them cute names but they are really just more desert and mole hills, nothing much to see.
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Well, from North Carolina they looked like something! :)

You know, if there's nothing there, just take the dang road! :D
 
jesse said:
Thanks for the level of detail Ron..Those references excite me. We appreciate your efforts. Usually pilotage and DR fall together..Which is what Bob was referring to.
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When you're flying over desert or water, DR is often the best you have--with little to no landmarks, hard for pilotage to enter the picture. It's why course and xwind correction factors are critical both preflight and inflight.

And bet your rootin' tootin' that it's during a flight over that kind of (lack of) terrain/landmarks that a GPS is worth its weight in platinum encrusted diamonds.

Talk to some of the ol MAC/SAC flyers that launched from Dyess AFB or Eilsen AFB en route to Guam or the PI or U-Tapao and flew 10,000 miles over nothing but water, at night, using nothing but celestial navigation. I rode on a few of those, and normally the aircrew is the one that buys the PJs beer and steak, but first flight we were on in those condtions, once we landed at U-Tapao, we couldn't grab our pocketbooks fast enough to treat the naviguessor to whatever he wanted.

Regards.

-JD
 
dont even need a desert or water. North/South Dakota substitute just fine.
 
tonycondon said:
dont even need a desert or water. North/South Dakota substitute just fine.
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Reckon so. As do some of the wheatfields of Nebrasaka, most of middle Kansas, eastern Montana. . .

I remember a flight pre-GPS days to southwest Idaho one winter where I flew over the Wasatch mountains in Utah, then over the Great Salt Lake and the Bonneville Salt Flats past the Wendover Range.

It had snowed pretty good, sun was out and it was so bright that it hurt your eyes to look down at the ground. All you could see once you cleared the GSL was flat white horizon with the sun glaring off of it. I was in my turbo Saratoga and it was so bright that at times I had a hard time distinguishing between the ground and the (white) wings.

A good example of CAVU severe clear that had me getting nervouse. No place to sit the bird down, no landmarks.

I was never so happy to start seeing trees again in my life.

Regards.

-JD
 
N6399A said:
the Phoenix to Blithe leg is giving me problems. If I were already a pilot, on a XC in unfamiliar territory, and there was an Interstate that went directly from point A to point B and nothing else on the chart for visual checkpoints I would most definitely follow the Interstate. But for training purposes I’m sure he expects more from me than “Hey, we’re going to take the 101 to the 10 and the 10 to Blithe.”
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I'd accept that, but be ready to explain and point out identifiers on the chart that show you are on the correct highway and headings to verify that you are on the correct highway. I don't have any US charts in front of me, but if you look, you'll find details. I have flown many pilotage X/Cs using watertowers to verify my location. You'll want to correct your check headings for the winds you get on your briefing (which you will correct again after departure when you calculate your actual winds).
 
Definately, use the I-10 and the 101. Mark every town along the way, count them and check them off as you fly over them.

This sounds like the Long solo crosscountry I'm planning. Except I'm going to DVT to GilaBend, GilaBend to Yuma, Yuma to DVT. I'm going to follow the interstates the whole way. For true Pilotage you will have to fly lower than normal to make sure you can make out the checkpoints. Also remember to fly on the right side of the highway. Other pilots coming from the other direction will (should) be doing the same thing.

How long have you been training at DVT? I keep my bird at the East Covered Tie-downs, near the police Hangar.

Maybe we'll run into each other sometime?

Have fun on the cross-country!
 
N6399A said:
Maybe I should just stay home until I learn to spell Blithe. BLYTHE BLYTHE BLYTHE
Watch................ I'll go out of my way to come up with checkpoints and my CFI will say "What's wrong the the highway that goes directly there?"
Click to expand...

That's what I'd say....
 
Ron Levy said:
That's DR -- what the OP described is indeed pilotage. Here are relevant definitions (emphasis added):

The art of piloting aircraft safely and accurately from one place to another by means of map-reading and the recognition of ground objects.
www.aeroplanemonthly.com/glossary/glossary_PQ.htm

Navigation by visual reference to landmarks
www.flightsimaviation.com/_glossaries.html

Pilotage is the use of fixed visual references on the ground or sea to guide oneself to a destination.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilotage

If his instructor wants pilotage, he can't get any more like it than “Hey, we’re going to take the 101 to the 10 and the 10 to Blithe (sic).”
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I stand corrected, Ron. My primary instructor kind of used DR and pilotage interchangablly :dunno:
 
N6399A said:
Thanks guys................ I guess my thought was that once out of the Phoenix area and before Quarzite there really isn't anything. The geologic landmarks - Eagle Mtns and New Water Mts refuge don't really stand out from the rest of the terrain. They give them cute names but they are really just more desert and mole hills, nothing much to see.
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Cheat.

Check out Google Maps or Google Earth for your route to see what things might look like from the air. You might want to choose things that are very obvious and the visibilities in your area mean you don't have to focus on things that are only 5-10 miles appart
 
OK.............. went back to the chart, figuring I must be missing something, and to look for smaller roads that I could use, and it turns out there is hope for me. Well, Hope, AZ, at least, with its 2, what appear to be huge abandon mines. I'm usuming they were copper, but that's neither here nor there. So I'll get my headings figured out and if the winds are kind it should be a great day. Of course if winds are bad I'll learn a lot more. It's a win win. Thanks for all the help; you guys are great!!! I've learned a lot from you.
 
N6399A said:
OK.............. went back to the chart, figuring I must be missing something, and to look for smaller roads that I could use, and it turns out there is hope for me. Well, Hope, AZ, at least, with its 2, what appear to be huge abandon mines. I'm usuming they were copper, but that's neither here nor there. So I'll get my headings figured out and if the winds are kind it should be a great day. Of course if winds are bad I'll learn a lot more. It's a win win. Thanks for all the help; you guys are great!!! I've learned a lot from you.
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If the mines are "neither here nor there", how do you navigate by 'em?:dunno:

Sorry...I'm just in one of those moods today ;)

I remember the first time I tried pilotage over the desert...ferrying a 450-hp Stearman to Phoenix. The airplane's range was just over two handspans on the sectional chart to 30 minutes reserve, and St John's, NM, was the only thing in the general direction I was going, and was right at two handspans. (How's THAT for precision flight planning?)

Realized early on in the flight that pilotage wasn't gonna work...While I can pinpoint my position in North or South Dakota, all those cowpaths through the desert look alike to me. No nav radios, so DR it was, and on I went. Since it was CAVU (yes, that long ago), I was able to breathe easy a little sooner...my DR put me within 1 1/2 miles of the airport after an hour and a half on the compass.

That's well under 1 degree of error, for those of you who are wondering, and every serious DR trip I've done has come out like that. Which is why I think DR is terribly under-rated as a form of precision navigation.

Anyway, that's one of the reasons we fly dual cross-countries...so our instructors can give us tips on the best ways to navigate by pilotage and what to pick for checkpoints...so you don't end up like ME! :)

Fly safe!

David
 
lindbergh was 4 miles off after 3000 miles across the pond. thats 2/25 of a degree off course. DR works. I remind my students of this on their first cross country, when they get lax on holding heading. This stuff works, if you spend the time to plan it and follow through in the airplane.
 
N6399A said:
OK.............. went back to the chart, figuring I must be missing something, and to look for smaller roads that I could use, and it turns out there is hope for me. Well, Hope, AZ, at least, with its 2, what appear to be huge abandon mines. I'm usuming they were copper, but that's neither here nor there. So I'll get my headings figured out and if the winds are kind it should be a great day. Of course if winds are bad I'll learn a lot more. It's a win win. Thanks for all the help; you guys are great!!! I've learned a lot from you.
Click to expand...

Make note of a few extra possible checkpoints that you find on the chart that you think you may be able to use. Then on the flight, see if you can find them. Part of the learning involving in planning and flying the XCs is to see what does and doesn't work as a landmark, and to get a feel for how to translate the chart into what you are seeing out the window (and the other way).

Have fun!

--david
 
N6399A said:
OK.............. went back to the chart, figuring I must be missing something, and to look for smaller roads that I could use, and it turns out there is hope for me. Well, Hope, AZ, at least, with its 2, what appear to be huge abandon mines. I'm usuming they were copper, but that's neither here nor there. So I'll get my headings figured out and if the winds are kind it should be a great day. Of course if winds are bad I'll learn a lot more. It's a win win. Thanks for all the help; you guys are great!!! I've learned a lot from you.
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In reality of practice, unless we are flying over large expanses of water, we will use a combination of DR & Pilotage, however, this is an exercise flight and the exercise is Pilotage. Pilotage means you keep reference by what you see on the ground, so you have to plan the trip with checkpoints that take you without a lack of continuous ground location reference through the entire flight. If I was your instructor, I would not accept a plan that had me on a heading waiting to find my next checkpoint in this exercize. In real life flying, it's just fine, but again, this isn't real life flying, it's an educational exercise in pilotage. I would not have any problem with a routing that kept you in constant visual with a highway set that leads you to an airport even if that route was indirect (allowing that you had sufficient fuel). Early on I made a VFR X/C flight in an Arrow with no functioning Nav radios. Unforcast weather forced me down and I called Indianapolis Center (I was on FF)to let them know the situation and that I was heading for underneath the deck to maintain VFR (I was not IR yet). At 1100' Center called me that I was lost off radar and squawk VFR as I headed down to 500'. I followed I-70 to I-255 which I knew would take me right on a close in Base to Parks Downtown/St.Louis Exec runways. As I approached the conditions were still deteriorating (low ceilings with 10+ vis below) and I called Parks tower with my position at the highway interchange. They asked if I was sure of my location as they didn't have me on radar, I said "That's what the highway signs read", "Roger 08T, clear to land 25 left(I think)"

While even though in practice we mostly will combine both systems as a cross check between them (and use radio as triple redundancy) there comes situations where we are forced to use one solely, and that is the point of these navigational exercises. You will likely also do a DR only exercise.
 
tonycondon said:
lindbergh was 4 miles off after 3000 miles across the pond. thats 2/25 of a degree off course. DR works. I remind my students of this on their first cross country, when they get lax on holding heading. This stuff works, if you spend the time to plan it and follow through in the airplane.
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Yeah, but I've heard that the barometric pressure at both ends of his trip were the same, so he didn't have to apply any wind correction angle at all :)

Fly safe!

David
 
:goofy:
MauleSkinner said:
Yeah, but I've heard that the barometric pressure at both ends of his trip were the same, so he didn't have to apply any wind correction angle at all :) Fly safe! David
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Over about 3000 miles? The pressure may have been the same at both ends (don't know) but must have been up and down a lot over that distance, and the same pressure between departure and destination does not indicate no crosswind anyway. I am not getting your point. Oh. A Joke, right?:goofy:
 
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Dwight B. Van Zanen said:
Over about 4000 miles? The pressure may have been the same at both ends (don't know) but must have been up and down a lot over that distance, and the same pressure between departure and destination does not indicate no crosswing anyway. I am not getting your point. Oh. A joke, right?
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Actually, you can quite frequently cross the N Atlantic with the prevailing westerlies behind you even on a boat.
 
Dwight B. Van Zanen said:
:goofy:

Over about 3000 miles? The pressure may have been the same at both ends (don't know) but must have been up and down a lot over that distance, and the same pressure between departure and destination does not indicate no crosswind anyway. I am not getting your point. Oh. A Joke, right?:goofy:
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No joke...it's called "pressure pattern flying" and "single drift correction". You can compute a single WCA for the whole trip, and if the pressures are the same on both ends the crosswinds will cancel each other out, resulting in a zero WCA. This will, btw, approximate a minimum time track for the flight, as you're not losing as much forward speed due to the crab angle.

Obviously they won't let you do this now on a NAT due to RNP issues, but it works.

Fly safe!

David
 
MauleSkinner said:
No joke...it's called "pressure pattern flying" and "single drift correction". You can compute a single WCA for the whole trip, and if the pressures are the same on both ends the crosswinds will cancel each other out, resulting in a zero WCA. This will, btw, approximate a minimum time track for the flight, as you're not losing as much forward speed due to the crab angle.

Obviously they won't let you do this now on a NAT due to RNP issues, but it works.

Fly safe!

David
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I think that Barry Schiff talks about that in one of his Proficient Pilot books (I don't have them handy at the moment -- it may be the first book).
 
RotaryWingBob said:
I think that Barry Schiff talks about that in one of his Proficient Pilot books (I don't have them handy at the moment -- it may be the first book).
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Yep, I'm pretty sure it's in the first book. The whole concept really blows my mind.
 
Cute trick. Of couse, the pressure would be the same on both sides of a hurricane too. No sure that helps much though.
 
Dwight B. Van Zanen said:
Cute trick. Of couse, the pressure would be the same on both sides of a hurricane too. No sure that helps much though.
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Actually, I think that's an excellent example. You fly straight through the hurricane with no wind correction angle. Your track will be blown first one way, then the other way, and you end up right on course at the other end when you pop out.
 
N6399A said:
I need a little help. My CFI and I are planning a XC on Tuesday. The route is DVT to Blithe to Parker and back to DVT. My CFI wants to first 2 legs to be pilotage only. He wants a couple of visual checkpoints selected for ground speed calculation. Now the Blithe to Parker leg is pretty easy, thanks to the river. But, the Phoenix to Blithe leg is giving me problems. If I were already a pilot, on a XC in unfamiliar territory, and there was an Interstate that went directly from point A to point B and nothing else on the chart for visual checkpoints I would most definitely follow the Interstate. But for training purposes I’m sure he expects more from me than “Hey, we’re going to take the 101 to the 10 and the 10 to Blithe.” If anyone has flown this and knows of a less rudimentary route with some good visual checkpoints your help would be greatly appreciated. I’ve searched the sectional and flown the route on Google Earth and I’ve got nothin. Am I missing something? :dunno:
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Remember that checkpoints can be anything. As long as you see them and they're on the chart, whats considered good is a matter of opinion. There are always some better than others though. Remember not to fixate on those checkpoints but use it as miniature routes. Look for the simple and obvious such as turns in roads, how the lakes are formed and which part you'll fly over. And whatever you do, dont forget to reset your DG.
 
Dwight B. Van Zanen said:
If you survive the trip.
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Judgement is still required, no matter what the method of navigation used.

There's also a good chance that you wouldn't even penetrate the hurricane, because the crosswind would be strong enough to take you around it. But if you would go into it, you'd simply take a 20-degree (or whatever it would require) cut to the right for however much time it would take to get around it, then a 20-degree cut to the left for the same amount of time, and continue on with your no-WCA headings.

Fly safe!

David
 
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But this method seems to require knowing ahead of time what the pressure will be at the destination. As we know, weather forecasting can be a bit of an art! I don't have Schiff's book. How does he address this?
 
Pressure pattern flying is definitely cool. In depth analysis was found in Song of the Sky by Guy Murchie. FWIW I seem to remember lindbergh correcting for wind along the course when he could get down to the ocean and estimate the wind direction and strength.
 
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