Stuck on Top

U

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It's been a few years since this happened, but I'm still embarrassed that it ever did so I'm posting anon. I was in the early winter/late fall time frame. I also apologize for my poor writing style.

I was attempting to build the massive amount of PIC XC hours I needed in order to obtain my IR/CP so I decided to do it all in one flight and visit some family. At this point my mountain training was very recent and fresh in my mind. I rented a Piper Archer from the front range of Colorado and intended to fly to the coast of the Pacific Northwest.

The briefer for the day said there was some low mountain obscuration which cleared up to the north into Wyoming, but other than that my route of flight should be nearly clear with very gentle winds aloft... A perfect day to fly I thought.

Although I had numerous hours in pipers, this Archer was new to me which showed, as very early in the morning, It took an unnerving amount of tries to start the engine. I had full tanks of fuel and a conservatively close next waypoint in Rock Springs WY. I finally got going around 0600. I climbed to the West anticipating a cruise altitude of 12,500 with higher jaunts to get over mountain passes. - I note I did not bring oxygen, nor did I have a pulsox, but I felt confident at this altitude due to living and being acclimated in a mountainous area well above a mile-high. I approached the front range and saw the mountain obscuration which wasnt any higher than the low 10,000ft peaks that guarded some of the passes.

As the sun rose it played tricks on me while I proceeded West. While it was still mostly dark the clouds just out of reach of my eyesight seemed darker, like land... I kept telling myself the clouds were almost gone, this trickery went on for over 100nm. Well as the sun played tricks on me, it also had a devilish side effect. The clouds began rising.

I kept climbing as I knew getting into clouds in the mountains, in icing conditions would be a very, very deadly concoction. All the while I was climbing I kept telling myself the clouds would disappear very soon thinking I saw land. I kept climbing, mile after mile. Eventually I was quite glad to have been lightly loaded with just myself and fuel in very cold weather as I crossed the 17,000ft mark. At this altitude I started to panic, I knew I would soon be hypoxic and the mixture was nearly at idle cutoff. I started making contingency plans if the clouds rose too high, that I would get myself over an airport - which happened to be steamboat at my present course - and doing a spiraling instrument descent and land immediately anticipating much ice build-up. I soon cross 17,500 and began to worry even more about class A airspace. As I was crossing 17,800, barely making 25-50 ft/min and dodging plumes of clouds I decided to confess to Flight watch that I needed a way down. My voice was shaky but all they could offer me was that Rock Springs was indeed reporting severe clear... I just had to hold on until then. At this point there were some more clouds just above the layer I was at and I tried to scamper around them.

At this point I noticed a slight descent in the clouds as I was keeping an eye on my breathing and checking for signs of hypoxia. I descended steadily to 16,000 over the course of 20nm, then BOOM the clouds completely disappeared below me. I pushed the nose over HARD and the airspeed climbed into the yellow as I descended to about 8,500 since I had passed the western slope. I bit off the air like it was candy. For the first time in my life I yelled for joy that I was alive. I landed in Rock Springs, took a moment to calm down, fueled up, and took off into a perfect CAVU flying day.

The rest of my legs there and back were pristine and calm, a stark contrast to my first leg.

I learned much from this and am very fortunate to have the opportunity to have learned, and not been killed.

I will require a heavy margin of wx for any mountain flying. I will not be macho and will bring O2 incase I am forced to climb, and I will more readily call for help and divert to a better area.

And yes, apparently you can get a light Archer near the flight levels on a cold day.
 
Lower the altitudes about 7000 feet and change airplane to an 85hp T-Craft and this sounds really familiar:yikes::crazy:
 
Why we don't spend more time on instrument flight in the PPl is beyond me. Happens way more often than heard about.

I was VFR to central OK and it closed in on me quick. WitHing. Mile or two it went from scattered to a solid layer.

I'm IR so a quick call to center and I was fine, but I think the fatal error many make is thinking that they will find a hole a drop in. Continuing into deteriorating conditions on the hope it will be fine is a great way to cash in that insurance claim.

You got lucky. Real lucky.
 
Me in a Cherokee 140 flying home from Savannah. About 11,000 instead of 17, but the clouds were climbing and the aircraft was all done.c had outs, lower terrain one way, a 180 the other. Still, scary stuff. Had the cloud clearances (I think) and it all disappated on the lee of the rocks. Still scary.
 
Unit74 said:
Why we don't spend more time on instrument flight in the PPl is beyond me. Happens way more often than heard about.

I was VFR to central OK and it closed in on me quick. WitHing. Mile or two it went from scattered to a solid layer.

I'm IR so a quick call to center and I was fine, but I think the fatal error many make is thinking that they will find a hole a drop in. Continuing into deteriorating conditions on the hope it will be fine is a great way to cash in that insurance claim.

You got lucky. Real lucky.
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No one says you can't spend as much time under the hood as you like after passing your ppl check ride. Basic instrument skills are a requirement for a private pilot and if you are not keeping them current, then that's on you.
 
As an instructor I try and hammer this home as much as possible. Be careful of the sirens song of climbing above the clouds - it's very easy to get trapped up there.
 
Almost got caught myself once over NY. I had plenty of fuel, but all the airports were closing in behind me as well. I'd already confessed to NY Center and they weren't too happy with me taking up their time when they're busy getting jets into Newark. But professional. Controller couldn't find any airfield that reported VFR in the whole sector. Finally, I saw a darker patch in the cloud layer below me. I though it was a heavier rain cloud at first, but I could see the ground through it when I got closer. I asked for a circling descent. I had to wait for him to clear a Lufthansa below me first but was then given the go. I went through the wormhole and crept under the very rainy and low ceilings. Managed to make my way to KCDW, slightly shamefully. But I did thank the controller for looking out for me and trying to find a VFR field.

That's when I decided I really needed to go for my IR ticket.
 
Art VanDelay said:
As an instructor I try and hammer this home as much as possible. Be careful of the sirens song of climbing above the clouds - it's very easy to get trapped up there.
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Yep. VFR over the top over a layer is amazing, just be 110% sure you can get down or have an out.
 
Always been a proponent of staying under clouds, land on a road or in a good field if it gets bad, much safer to do that than try to descend through potentialy thousands of feet worth of IMC as a VFR pilot.
 
Thanks for your post - super helpful.

Last week, I was in a similar scenario, though I've given myself harder minima, and I carry O2 just in case. I'm instrument rated, but have no interest in a long descent through visible moisture in the freezing layer. In my case, rather than continue climbing over a rising ceiling, we descended clear of clouds (7,000 feet!) and flew in turbulence until we were clear of the area. We could very likely have made it over the tops, but below gave us more options, including landing on or off an airport if we'd picked up ice.

The Lance crash this week was eerily similar to your scenario. Here's the full audio, where you can hear his options deteriorate, and the valiant effort of the LA Center controller to keep those options open. If you haven't read the NTSB report, it was a midair structural failure - you can hear the airspeed in his final two broadcasts. Warning - it's disturbing.
 
whereisrandall said:
Thanks for your post - super helpful.

Last week, I was in a similar scenario, though I've given myself harder minima, and I carry O2 just in case. I'm instrument rated, but have no interest in a long descent through visible moisture in the freezing layer. In my case, rather than continue climbing over a rising ceiling, we descended clear of clouds (7,000 feet!) and flew in turbulence until we were clear of the area. We could very likely have made it over the tops, but below gave us more options, including landing on or off an airport if we'd picked up ice.

The Lance crash this week was eerily similar to your scenario. Here's the full audio, where you can hear his options deteriorate, and the valiant effort of the LA Center controller to keep those options open. If you haven't read the NTSB report, it was a midair structural failure - you can hear the airspeed in his final two broadcasts. Warning - it's disturbing.
Click to expand...


...

RIP
 
Stuck on top without being IFR qualified,and no way out ,can be a very dangerous place to be.
 
whereisrandall said:
The Lance crash this week was eerily similar to your scenario. Here's the full audio, where you can hear his options deteriorate, and the valiant effort of the LA Center controller to keep those options open. If you haven't read the NTSB report, it was a midair structural failure - you can hear the airspeed in his final two broadcasts. Warning - it's disturbing.
Click to expand...
After listening to the audio and reading much of the comments the cause of the (suspected) structural failure is unclear. I also read the NTSB prelim report here: http://www.ntsb.gov/about/employmen...cc63-4db7-8678-0e5830d7aa02&pgno=2&pgsize=200
 
jordane93 said:
Yep. VFR over the top over a layer is amazing, just be 110% sure you can get down or have an out.
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It is. I have done it once. But that was with an ATP rated CFII sitting right seat ready to open an IFR flight plan and get us down if necessary.
 
dell30rb said:
On top is where the smooth air is, so get your instrument rating
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If you re-read the original post I was building my PIC XC hours for my instrument. I now have had it for several years.

In hindsight an instrument wouldnt have been particularly helpful considering it was hard icing conditions and a non-FIKI plane. Unfortunately FIKI aircraft are rarely readily rent-able.
 
Unregistered said:
If you re-read the original post I was building my PIC XC hours for my instrument. I now have had it for several years.

In hindsight an instrument wouldnt have been particularly helpful considering it was hard icing conditions and a non-FIKI plane. Unfortunately FIKI aircraft are rarely readily rent-able.
Click to expand...

Good story and definitely worth posting.
 
whereisrandall said:
Thanks for your post - super helpful.

Last week, I was in a similar scenario, though I've given myself harder minima, and I carry O2 just in case. I'm instrument rated, but have no interest in a long descent through visible moisture in the freezing layer. In my case, rather than continue climbing over a rising ceiling, we descended clear of clouds (7,000 feet!) and flew in turbulence until we were clear of the area. We could very likely have made it over the tops, but below gave us more options, including landing on or off an airport if we'd picked up ice.

The Lance crash this week was eerily similar to your scenario. Here's the full audio, where you can hear his options deteriorate, and the valiant effort of the LA Center controller to keep those options open. If you haven't read the NTSB report, it was a midair structural failure - you can hear the airspeed in his final two broadcasts. Warning - it's disturbing.
Click to expand...

I just listened to the audio and ready the NTSB preliminary report. Disturbing indeed...

Rest in peace...
 
PPC1052 said:
It is. I have done it once. But that was with an ATP rated CFII sitting right seat ready to open an IFR flight plan and get us down if necessary.
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Done it once also, with only my wife onboard although she slept through most of it. Lasted about 30-45 minutes and enjoyed it all! And yes, it was anticipated and had a minimum of 80% fuel with no excessive terrain to deal with. Yes, an engine out scenario would have been a disaster, but I don't think any rating would have helped mitigate that risk.
 
midcap said:
So the lance pilot purposely flew into IMC without an IFR Ticket?
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That's the conclusion one gets from the airman database, and from the NTSB report.

However, he's a FOAF, and several of the folks that knew him directly claim he was a brand new instrument pilot. There is no official record of that that I can find, though, and the folks claiming this are not pilots.

In either case, he was clearly not prepared to hand fly in those conditions, and some of the locals here think he encountered strong updrafts crossing a front and some significant terrain, and couldn't figure out what his instruments were telling him, resulting in an ill advised attempt to hold altitude and an overspeed.
 
MAKG1 said:
That's the conclusion one gets from the airman database, and from the NTSB report.

However, he's a FOAF, and several of the folks that knew him directly claim he was a brand new instrument pilot. There is no official record of that that I can find, though, and the folks claiming this are not pilots.

In either case, he was clearly not prepared to hand fly in those conditions, and some of the locals here think he encountered strong updrafts crossing a front and some significant terrain, and couldn't figure out what his instruments were telling him, resulting in an ill advised attempt to hold altitude and an overspeed.
Click to expand...

It seems like every time I read a crash report similar to that one, the crash is always a result of the pilot not being able to fly the plane off of gauges.

That makes me seriosily consider only doing x country flying with an IFR rating.
 
I am wanting badly to start IFR as well. Passing the test would be nice but being capable of staying Ali e us a must.
 
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